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Author Topic: Critique of the Doctrine of the Trinity:  (Read 1351 times)

Offline Quasar

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Critique of the Doctrine of the Trinity:
« on: May 03, 2013, 02:39:17 PM »
 
The following Scriptures clearly reveal the Doctrine of the Trinity to be in error.

1. Beginning with:   God is Spirit according to: Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12. That no one has ever seen Him and that He is invisible, are found in Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; Heb.11:27 [Moses,  Abraham and Jacob all saw the pre-incarnate Jesus, not God, the invisible Holy Spirit] and in 1 Jn.4:12.
 
2. God is Holy: God, who is Spirit according to the Scriptures, is also Holy, according to Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.

Therefore, according to the Scriptures, there is no option to the fact, God is the Holy Spirit!

3. There was only one God throughout the entire OT according to Isa.43:10; 44:6 and 45:5.  Which rules out Jesus being co-eternal with God, the Holy Spirit. The Scriptural description of his origin is addressed below. It can be described as Jesus auto-biography, written by king Solomon as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

4. The origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus, who did not become the only begotten Son of God, until much later, in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:32, 35, is found in Pr.8:22-36, which follows below: Confirming Ps.2:7; Ps.45:6-7; Ps.110:1 and Isa.7:14. Repeated when fulfilled in: Mt.1:23; Mt.22:44; Heb.1:5, 8-9.

Beginning with Proverbs.8:22-36:

* "The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24] NIV

 * when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world." [Vs 24-26] NIV

 * I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28] NIV

* when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30] NIV

* rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33] NIV

 * Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36] NIV

That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3

From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' with the Spirit of God [The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus did not become the Son of God/God the Son until in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35 as addressed below], as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. The same passage of Scripture also clearly reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one. God, whom the Scriptures reveal is the Holy Spirit, and the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ. In the KJV, is another example of the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus being created, comes from their translation of Pr.8:22, which reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22, the term POSSESS in both verses means CREATOR, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus Christ, confirming Col.1:15.
 
To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And in vs 18, is written that He was/is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be crystal clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, as a firstborn child in a family of multiple children, or if only one, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth as the first of YHWH's works, before anything else was created, before the world began.

Confirmed in Col.1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN over all creation." As well as who the "us" is in Gen.1:26, 11:7; Jn.1:1-2 and 17:5.

5. In vs 30 of the Pr.8 text is the following: NIV
"when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day," [Vs 29-30]
Confirming: Gen.1:26; Gen.14:7; Jn.1:1-3; Col.1:16-18 and in Heb.1:2.
 
The Holy Spirit is also the Father of Jesus according to Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and Acts 13:33.
 
6. The Holy Spirit, who is our One and Only God [Isa.43:10 and 44:6], not only stated He was the Father of Israel , in Dt.32:6, but also prophecied He was going to be the Father of a Son, in: 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Which was fulfilled in Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and Acts 13:33. Therefore, there is no option to the Scriptural fact: God, the Holy Spirit was/is the Father of Jesus Christ. And gave a body to the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus, by the virgin Mary, Confirming Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5.

7. The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus then became the incarnate Son of God in Lk.1:35, and received His name, Jesus, in Lk.1:31. Literally, God the Son, fulfilling the prophecy of the Holy Spirit, in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. Empowered to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, according to Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. To perform 36 miracles, of raising some from the dead, healing people with leprosy and other terminal illnesses as well as the blind and the deaf. Which no normal human being could ever do.

8. The title, "Father," given to God, the Holy Spirit, is nothing more than the very same title all men receive who produce children of their own! It does not constitute making God, who is the Holy Spirit, two persons through the use of His title as Father, trinitarians attempt to do!  Which is the reason why Mt.28:19 is bogus, because it was obviously altered by unscrupulous scribes obsessed with belief in the doctrine of the Trinity. In addition 1 Jn.5:7 was a late Latin insert on, around the 11th or 12th centuries that never appeared in any of the earlier Greek manuscripts.

The altered Mt.28:19 and 1 Jn.5:7:
 
The Scriptures reveal, God to be the Holy Spirit and the Father [His title] of Jesus Christ.  Therefore  the use of the term Father wih the Holy Spirit by trinitarians as two persons [together with the Son, as their truine formula] is in error, because the Father is the Holy Spirit, one person, not two!  In addition to the fact:  A. The Son did not exist in the OT.  B. The pre-incarnate spirit who later became Jesus, was created, according to Pr.8:22-36, as documented above, and confirmed in Col.1:15 as the firstborn over all creation.
 
http://english.sdaglobal.org/research/mt2819.htm

Therefore, the Scriptures describe God to be the Holy Spirit and the Father of Jesus, one person, not two. In addition to the pre-incarnate spirit, who later became Jesus, was created, the firstborn over all creation, recorded in Col.1:15, confirming Pr.8:22-36. Who became the Son of God, literally God the Son when the Holy Spirit Fathered him by the virgin Mary in Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35, two persons, not one.


See the following for the origins of the trinity:


http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/doctrine/the%20origin%20of%20the%20trinity.htm

The Father and the Holy Spirit are One and the same person!
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 02:42:25 PM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline saved

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Re: Critique of the Doctrine of the Trinity:
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2013, 03:33:57 PM »
Three infinite and eternal persons belong to this Godhead called Yahweh: (1) the Father, (2) the Son, Jesus Christ, and (3) the Holy Spirit. These three persons are bound closely together in unity of power and purpose and are often referred to as the Trinity.  Yahweh is one God made up of three persons.

The fact that Jesus Christ is Yahweh can be determined by comparing the following Old Testament verses with the corresponding New Testament verses.

Isaiah 40:3 speaks about preparing the way for the LORD (Yahweh).  When we compare this verse with Mark 1:3 we readily see that Jesus is the LORD who had the way prepared for him by John the Baptist.

In Joel 2:32a it says that whoever calls upon the Name of the LORD (Yahweh) will be saved.  This verse is quoted by Peter in Acts 2:21, and by Paul in Romans 10:13.  Both apostles are clearly referring to Jesus as the LORD.

In Isaiah 6:1-10 we read about the marvelous vision that Isaiah had revealing the glory of the LORD (Yahweh).  John tells us, in John 12:40-41, that this vision revealed the glory of Jesus.

In Isaiah 44:6, Yahweh refers to himself as “the First and the Last”.  In Revelation 1:8 and 17, Jesus similarly refers to himself as “the Alpha and the Omega” and “the First and the Last”.

In Zechariah 12:10 the LORD (Yahweh) is speaking and says that, “they will look on Me whom they have pierced.”[4] This is obviously Jesus speaking (Psalm 22:16; John 19:34).  This passage from Zechariah appears again in Revelation 1:7b and is clearly about Jesus Christ.

As Yahweh, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, Jesus is eternal, having all the qualities and attributes of God.  Even on earth, in human form, Jesus was the image of the invisible God; the exact representation of God’s nature (Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3).  Jesus is not some sort of demi-god but in him dwells the fullness of deity (“God-ness”) in bodily form (Colossians 2:9).  Jesus Christ, born of the virgin Mary, was fully man and fully God, having both a human and divine nature at the same time.

As eternal God, Jesus Christ existed before he came to earth as a human baby.  He existed before the creation of the earth.  In fact, Jesus was instrumental in its creation.  The Bible says that all things were created by Him, and that nothing was made without Him (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16-17; Hebrews 1:2).   Jesus is not a created being himself.

The Scriptures teach us that there is only one God and we are commanded that we should worship no other gods beside Him (Exodus 20:3).  Yet from Scripture we can see that Jesus Christ is worshipped eternally, further proving his deity and place in the Godhead (Philippians 2:10-11; Revelation 5:9-14).

As wonderful as Yahweh’s Name is,[5] there is a name which has even greater significance and importance:


Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him a name which is above every name; that at the name of Jesus  every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.  Philippians 2:9-11.

1] Jesus’ disciples, those closest to him, testified that Jesus is God. Peter writes “our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ” in 2 Peter 1:1; Thomas addresses Jesus as “My Lord and my God!” in John 20:28; and  John called the Word/Jesus, “God” in John 1:1.  Also, the apostle Paul calls Jesus “the great God and Saviour” in Titus 2:13

[2] King David had no problem with declaring the Name of God.  In the first and ninth verse of Psalm 8 he says (sings), “O Yahweh, our Lord, how majestic is your Name in all the earth!”

[3] “Jehovah” was another way of saying God’s Name and appeared in old English translations of the Old Testament; but this pronunciation has fallen out of favour because it is now considered inaccurate.

[4] Some paraphrases, such as the Good News Bible and the Living Bible, do not translate this verse accurately.

[5] O LORD (Yahweh), our Lord (Adonai), how majestic is your Name in all the earth!  Psalm 8:1 & 9

Do you worship Jesus?
Isaiah 48:18,Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Critique of the Doctrine of the Trinity:
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2013, 12:13:10 AM »
Three infinite and eternal persons belong to this Godhead called Yahweh: (1) the Father, (2) the Son, Jesus Christ, and (3) the Holy Spirit. These three persons are bound closely together in unity of power and purpose and are often referred to as the Trinity.  Yahweh is one God made up of three persons.

The fact that Jesus Christ is Yahweh can be determined by comparing the following Old Testament verses with the corresponding New Testament verses.

Isaiah 40:3 speaks about preparing the way for the LORD (Yahweh).  When we compare this verse with Mark 1:3 we readily see that Jesus is the LORD who had the way prepared for him by John the Baptist.

In Joel 2:32a it says that whoever calls upon the Name of the LORD (Yahweh) will be saved.  This verse is quoted by Peter in Acts 2:21, and by Paul in Romans 10:13.  Both apostles are clearly referring to Jesus as the LORD.

In Isaiah 6:1-10 we read about the marvelous vision that Isaiah had revealing the glory of the LORD (Yahweh).  John tells us, in John 12:40-41, that this vision revealed the glory of Jesus.

In Isaiah 44:6, Yahweh refers to himself as “the First and the Last”.  In Revelation 1:8 and 17, Jesus similarly refers to himself as “the Alpha and the Omega” and “the First and the Last”.

In Zechariah 12:10 the LORD (Yahweh) is speaking and says that, “they will look on Me whom they have pierced.”[4] This is obviously Jesus speaking (Psalm 22:16; John 19:34).  This passage from Zechariah appears again in Revelation 1:7b and is clearly about Jesus Christ.

As Yahweh, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, Jesus is eternal, having all the qualities and attributes of God.  Even on earth, in human form, Jesus was the image of the invisible God; the exact representation of God’s nature (Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3).  Jesus is not some sort of demi-god but in him dwells the fullness of deity (“God-ness”) in bodily form (Colossians 2:9).  Jesus Christ, born of the virgin Mary, was fully man and fully God, having both a human and divine nature at the same time.

As eternal God, Jesus Christ existed before he came to earth as a human baby.  He existed before the creation of the earth.  In fact, Jesus was instrumental in its creation.  The Bible says that all things were created by Him, and that nothing was made without Him (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16-17; Hebrews 1:2).   Jesus is not a created being himself.

The Scriptures teach us that there is only one God and we are commanded that we should worship no other gods beside Him (Exodus 20:3).  Yet from Scripture we can see that Jesus Christ is worshipped eternally, further proving his deity and place in the Godhead (Philippians 2:10-11; Revelation 5:9-14).

As wonderful as Yahweh’s Name is,[5] there is a name which has even greater significance and importance:


Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him a name which is above every name; that at the name of Jesus  every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.  Philippians 2:9-11.

1] Jesus’ disciples, those closest to him, testified that Jesus is God. Peter writes “our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ” in 2 Peter 1:1; Thomas addresses Jesus as “My Lord and my God!” in John 20:28; and  John called the Word/Jesus, “God” in John 1:1.  Also, the apostle Paul calls Jesus “the great God and Saviour” in Titus 2:13

[2] King David had no problem with declaring the Name of God.  In the first and ninth verse of Psalm 8 he says (sings), “O Yahweh, our Lord, how majestic is your Name in all the earth!”

[3] “Jehovah” was another way of saying God’s Name and appeared in old English translations of the Old Testament; but this pronunciation has fallen out of favour because it is now considered inaccurate.

[4] Some paraphrases, such as the Good News Bible and the Living Bible, do not translate this verse accurately.

[5] O LORD (Yahweh), our Lord (Adonai), how majestic is your Name in all the earth!  Psalm 8:1 & 9

Do you worship Jesus?



You've had my answer pertaining to "do I worship Jesus!"  Long before you were ever thought of, junior!  Totally irrelevant to the issue of this thread!

The following Scriptural description of God refutes the false doctrine of the Trinity, Jesus, His disciples nor the Bible ever taught!  Either prove the following Scriptures false - or the Trinity is!

WHAT IS GOD ? WHO IS THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ?

Why do trinitarians insist God, whom the Scriptures declare to be the Holy Spirit AND Father, to be two separate persons, when they are one and the same person? Yet, also insist Jesus and the Son are one person! With that kind of logic, as the Scriptures below clearly reveal, God is the Holy Spirit and the Father, one and the same person that trinitarians insist are two, of their triune formula. Why is it then by the same logic do they not interpret Jesus and the Son in the same way, as a fourth person of their formula, trinitarians see as one and the same person? WHICH IS AN ATTEMPT TO HAVE IT BOTH WAYS! Completely non-Scriptural!

In response to one of them:

http://www.ucg.ca/booklets/is-god-a-trinity/trinity-biblical

The following reasons are why the Trinity is false and cannot be proven by the Scriptures!

1. God is Spirit: Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12.2.

God is Holy: Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Isa.43:3; Jos.24:19; 1 Sam.2:2; Job 6:10; Ps.99:3 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.3.

According to the above, there is no option to the Scriptural fact, God is the Holy Spirit and Father of Jesus, according to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.4 and all of the above Scriptures!

The origin of the pre-incarnate spirit of the person who later became Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, was brought forth by the Father [Who is the Holy Spirit according to the Scriptures] in Pr.8:22-36, before the world began, the firstborn over all creation, according to Col.1:15. Fulfilling Ps.2:7 and Acts 13:33.

Therefore, as the above Scriptures prove, there is no option to the fact the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus!5. As recorded in 3. above, the Scriptures describe God to be the Holy Spirit AND Father, ONE person, NOT TWO!

As documented in 4. above, the Father and the Son are TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES, NOT ONE! Confirmed in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35.

Why is the trinitarian view false? From the beginning, the formula for their views come from belief the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit formulate a monogamous Godhead. However, the Scriptures fully refute any such theory and describe God to be the Holy Spirit and Father of Jesus!

The term Father, is nothing more than His title. The very same one all men receive when they produce children of their own. It never constitutes making two persons out of the individual who is called father, as is the case with our one and only God the Holy Spirit, who produced His one and only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ by the virgin Mary.

Shocking trinitarian admissions:  http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

The origin and development of the doctrine of the Trinity:

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/doctrine/the%20origin%20of%20the%20trinity.htm




Quasar


« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 12:19:37 AM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline The Crusader

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Critique of the Doctrine of the Trinity:
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2013, 10:53:31 AM »
I believe in One God, the Creator and Sustainer of Heaven and Earth, existing eternally in Three Persons: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost.

(Duet. 6: 4-5; I Tim. 2:5; Eph. 4:4-6; Matt. 28:19; II Cor. 13:14; Rom. 9:5; Matt. 3:16-17; Rom. 8:3-4; Eph. 3:14-17; Rom. 15:30; Eph. 5:18-20; Dan. 7:9-14; I Cor. 8:5-6; II Cor. 1:21-22; Gal. 4:6; II Thes. 2:13)
"...to make all men see"(Ephesians 3:9)

We don't change God's message -- His message changes us.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Critique of the Doctrine of the Trinity:
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2013, 03:59:44 PM »
I believe in One God, the Creator and Sustainer of Heaven and Earth, existing eternally in Three Persons: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost.

(Duet. 6: 4-5; I Tim. 2:5; Eph. 4:4-6; Matt. 28:19; II Cor. 13:14; Rom. 9:5; Matt. 3:16-17; Rom. 8:3-4; Eph. 3:14-17; Rom. 15:30; Eph. 5:18-20; Dan. 7:9-14; I Cor. 8:5-6; II Cor. 1:21-22; Gal. 4:6; II Thes. 2:13)



There is no such thing as a tiune Godhead, Crusader.  Didn't you read my reply #2 to Saved as to why?  Neither Jesus, His disciples nor the Bible teach it.

The reason why in simple terms:  The Scriptures reveal God is the Holy Spirit AND Father of Jesus as documented in reply #2 on this thread.

The term Father is the title for the Holy Spirit, as seen in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35, as it is for all men who produce children of their own, as the Holy Spirit did by the virgin Mary.

The pre-incarnate Spirit of the person who later became the human Jesus was created, according to Pr.8:22-25 [36] and did not become the Son of God/God the Son until the Holy Spirit produced Him as posted above.  Confirming Jn.1:1-2, 17:5 and Col.1:15, where it is confirmed by Paul, the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus was the FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION!

Which also busts Mt.28:19 as having been altered as well as the inserted 1 Jn.5:7!


Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

 

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