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SCHOOL of THEOLOGY => Calvinism vs. Arminianism => Topic started by: me again on December 23, 2006, 01:17:05 PM

Title: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: me again on December 23, 2006, 01:17:05 PM
God repeatedly said to Moses "I will harden Pharoh's heart."Is God the ultimate puppet master of Pharoh's heart?  :D And of ours??? :what:  Please allow me to make my case: .
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Hallelujah!!! :preach:

You are putty in the Maker's Hands!!!!
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: John Oscar on December 23, 2006, 01:33:33 PM
Another Calvinist/Arminian discussion???   :rolleyes:

We are supposed to be celebrating peace on earth, goodwill toward men...and you bring this up?   :lol:
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: me again on December 23, 2006, 01:38:08 PM
Hey Hey Hey :snicker:
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: Zaph on December 29, 2006, 10:51:48 AM
God is only a puppet master if you're a Calvinist.
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: me again on December 29, 2006, 10:58:27 AM
Quote from: Zaph;38103
God is only a puppet master if you're a Calvinist.
Ah haaaaa!!!!! Do I have a nibble??? :snicker: :lol:

Choose the best answer:Calvinism at its finest! :smart:
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: John Oscar on December 29, 2006, 05:38:58 PM
Quote from: me again;38104
Calvinism at its finest!


Yep, charging God with sin and removing man's responsibility for it.  :brew:

After all, if we are just puppets with our strings being pulled by a malevolent God, then it's not our fault what we do.... it's his fault.

Furthermore, it reduces the God of the universe to a Roman or Greek "god" who just amuses himself in playing evil tricks on it's creation.

(I've been sitting here telling myself, "Don't do it...don't get involved in it again"   Can't help myself)  :brew:
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: Tom on December 29, 2006, 05:52:32 PM
Calvinism does not charge God with sin. The non-elect, unredeemed still bear full responsibility for their sin.
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: John Oscar on December 29, 2006, 05:53:57 PM
I understand Calvinism teaches that, but there is a logical and ethical disconnect with that theology....you can't have it both ways.  

I believe God is absolutely sovereign, just as you do.  I also believe (and this is the main disconnect most Calvinist's have) is that when He gave Adam free will and stewardship over Eden/earth, He effectively limited Himself by His own Word.  

Just as God can not just forgive sin, as that would be breaking His Word "That the soul that sins must die", He cannot break His word and take away man's free will....

I also don't believe Adam's sin caught God by surprise, but was pre-known to Him.  That's why Revelations says that the Lamb of God was crucified from the beginning of the world!  It's all part of His plan....

(You may not know it, but that there is some good preaching)  :preach:
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: me again on December 29, 2006, 08:23:21 PM
Quote from: Tom;38109
Calvinism does not charge God with sin. The non-elect, unredeemed still bear full responsibility for their sin.
Mannnnnnn you are smart.  :smart: I had NO answer for John Oscar.  Thank goodness you're here. :smack: :snicker:
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: me again on December 29, 2006, 08:25:30 PM
Quote from: John Oscar;38110
I understand Calvinism teaches that, but there is a logical and ethical disconnect with that theology....you can't have it both ways.  

I believe God is absolutely sovereign, just as you do.  I also believe (and this is the main disconnect most Calvinist's have) is that when He gave Adam free will and stewardship over Eden/earth, He effectively limited Himself by His own Word.  

Just as God can not just forgive sin, as that would be breaking His Word "That the soul that sins must die", He cannot break His word and take away man's free will....

I also don't believe Adam's sin caught God by surprise, but was pre-known to Him.  That's why Revelations says that the Lamb of God was crucified from the beginning of the world!  It's all part of His plan....

(You may not know it, but that there is some good preaching)  :preach:
Hummm, I gotta chew on that.
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: Tom on December 29, 2006, 09:22:09 PM
Quote from: John Oscar;38110
Just as God can not just forgive sin, as that would be breaking His Word "That the soul that sins must die", He cannot break His word and take away man's free will....



John,

Please show me where Scripture states that God gave man free will.


Free Will is a movie about a killer whale in a Mexican swimming pool.
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: John Oscar on December 29, 2006, 09:58:53 PM
Let's deal with the statement that you think God doesn't give man free will-

Would not that make God respondsible for man's sin if man has no free will?

Would we put someone in prison who was forced to drive through a crowd with a gun to her head?  No, she was not respondsible, the guy holding the gun on her was.

If I tell you as a LEO that God ordained me to speed through your radar stop, what will your response be?  You can't blame me...I have no free will.  God made me do it.

Let's open the prisons... We are imprisoning people that did what God ordained them to (making us resisters of God!)....or wait, did God ordain them to murder, steal, rape, ect...and then God ordained they get caught and locked up...  this is getting complicated.....

The idea that man has no free will is ludicrous!  Did God ordain Adam and Eve to sin?  No, but He knew that they would, and provided the way for them to still have fellowship with Him...

That's the essence of John 3:16!
Title: Did you choose God or did He choose you?
Post by: me again on December 30, 2006, 07:31:18 AM
Have you ever considered that His majesty left nothing to chance and that nothing is happenstance?  It is all wonderfully orchestrated by Him in his perfect plan, from beginning to end.  He who created the universe  will ensure that every  i is dotted and every t is crossed.  It is NOTHING to Him.  It is parlance.  

IMO we underestimate Him when we don't understand that He "knew it all" from the beginning of time, to include knowing who the sheep are and who the goats are.  John 3:16 is addressed exclusively to the sheep -- the goats are not eligible to enter heaven.  Goats have never been eligible and they never will be eligible and it is ordained that way from the foundation of the world.  Again, many hear the calling (the world) but few are chosen (the sheep).  

In the end, His majesty will be abundantly clear and we will all thank Him for it.  It will seem so simple at that time.  Right now, while we see the depths of sin and the carnage all around us, it is easy to think or believe that the goats have a shot or a chance at salvation -- but they don't.  Only the chosen will be saved.  Many are called, but God alone chooses.  

There is no free will involved.  Just as you had no choice in who your parents were, so we have no choice who our spiritual father is.  Those whose father is the devil are forever damned, while the children of God almighty are chosen by Him to be with Him for all eternity.  

There, I said it!!! :amen2:
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: Tom on December 30, 2006, 08:28:24 AM
Quote from: John Oscar;38115
Let's deal with the statement that you think God doesn't give man free will-



Let's not.

Provide the Scripture that states that God gave man free will. The question isn't what you think the ramifications are of man not having free will.

The fact is man is totally depraved. His will in his unregenerate state is totally in bondage to sin.

[/BOLD]Romans 3:10-18 as it is written:
None is righteous,no not one;
no one understands,;
no one seeks for God.

All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good not even one.

Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.
The venom of asps is under their lips.
Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.

Their feet are swift to shed blood;
   in their paths are ruin and misery
and the way of peace they have not known.
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
[BOLD/]

I don't know about you but I don't see any parties excluded from the "None or No one" category.

Until  the Holy Spirit of God comes into a man and first reveals the existence of God man can not even see or identify the true God.[BOLD]EXODUS 4:11 Then the Lord said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"[/BOLD]
Secondly, until the Holy Spirit reveals a mans sin he is not even aware that he is a sinner. (This would be the reason we see the bumper stickers which state "Born OK the first time.")
Thirdly, until the Holy Spirit comes in and changes a man from his natural, God hating "heart of stone" into a God loving "heart of flesh" he is totally in bondage to his sinful nature. He is not only incapable of choosing God and the things of God but he has no desire whatsoever to do so, the unregenerate hate God and the things of God, by nature.  

Even after the elect have been born again it becomes even more apparent that God has set the path we are to walk and the boundaries of our lives.

It is also apparent in the lives of the unregenerate because the lost do his bidding as well. Sometimes by acts of charity or kindness and sometimes being the tools of destruction.

He controls everything to the smallest degree.


Never forget that God said,

[BOLD]Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make well being and create calamity, I am the Lord who does all these things.[/BOLD]

True faith doesn't state, " It's a fallen world and this [insert tragedy here] isn't God's will but he will see me through.

True faith states, " It's a fallen world but God is in control. I hate what has happened. It is painful and I don't understand why he has brought this to pass but I trust him and I know that his will is best and he will eventually work it for good."
Title: Re: Did you choose God or did He choose you?
Post by: Tom on December 30, 2006, 08:38:57 AM
Quote from: me again;38116
Have you ever considered that His majesty left nothing to chance and that nothing is happenstance?  It is all wonderfully orchestrated by Him in his perfect plan, from beginning to end.  He who created the universe  will ensure that every  i is dotted and every t is crossed.  It is NOTHING to Him.  It is parlance.  

IMO we underestimate Him when we don't understand that He "knew it all" from the beginning of time, to include knowing who the sheep are and who the goats are.  John 3:16 is addressed exclusively to the sheep -- the goats are not eligible to enter heaven.  Goats have never been eligible and they never will be eligible and it is ordained that way from the foundation of the world.  Again, many hear the calling (the world) but few are chosen (the sheep).  

In the end, His majesty will be abundantly clear and we will all thank Him for it.  It will seem so simple at that time.  Right now, while we see the depths of sin and the carnage all around us, it is easy to think or believe that the goats have a shot or a chance at salvation -- but they don't.  Only the chosen will be saved.  Many are called, but God alone chooses.  

There is no free will involved.  Just as you had no choice in who your parents were, so we have no choice who our spiritual father is.  Those whose father is the devil are forever damned, while the children of God almighty are chosen by Him to be with Him for all eternity.  

There, I said it!!! :amen2:



Exactly, and this isn't based upon his foreknowldege it is based upon his will.

Ephesians 1: 4-5 even as he chose us in him before the foundaion of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will.
Title: Re: Did you choose God or did He choose you?
Post by: me again on December 30, 2006, 10:16:31 AM
Quote from: Tom;38118
Exactly, and this isn't based upon his foreknowldege it is based upon his will.

Ephesians 1: 4-5 even as he chose us in him before the foundaion of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will.
I guess that some people want to believe that they have the power to "choose their way into the kingdom of heaven," but that's simply not true.  If we could could "choose our way into heaven," then a lot of people would be going.  But the fact of the matter is that only the elect are given the ability to choose God -- and that only occurs because He chose them.  God will never choose the children of the devil and they are hopeless.  Yes folks, you read it here first.  :eek:

 If you go to heaven, it's not because you choose to, but instead, it's because the Lord chose you.  This seems to be a concept that many people cannot accept because they continue to cling to "their" ability to enter the kingdom of heaven, but their ability is complete insufficient, to include their own will.  God alone chooses who will enter His kingdom, which demonstrates that God alone is sovern.  :eek:
Title: Re: Did you choose God or did He choose you?
Post by: Tom on December 30, 2006, 10:22:59 AM
Quote from: me again;38119
I guess that some people want to believe that they have the power to "choose their way into the kingdom of heaven," but that's simply not true.  If we could could "choose our way into heaven," then a lot of people would be going.  But the fact of the matter is that only the elect are given the ability to choose God -- and that only occurs because He chose them.  God will never choose the children of the devil and they are hopeless.  Yes folks, you read it here first.  :eek:

 If you go to heaven, it's not because you choose to, but instead, it's because the Lord chose you.  This seems to be a concept that many people cannot accept because they continue to cling to "their" ability to enter the kingdom of heaven, but their ability is complete insufficient, to include their own will.  God alone chooses who will enter His kingdom, which demonstrates that God alone is sovern.  :eek:




Amen! Perfectly articulated.
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: John Oscar on December 30, 2006, 10:35:20 AM
Okay....Here is the scripture:

First, we are created in the image of God (who has free will)

Gen 1:26-27
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
NIV


Satan acknoweleged man's free will:

Gen 3:5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Let's stop there just for a second....

If Eve is a robot without a will of her own...is she then respondsible for eating the fruit?   :think:

Throughout the major and minor prophets, God repeatedly calls people back to Him.  Here is a classic example:

Isa 1:18-20

18 "Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel,you will be devoured by the sword."
 For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.
NIV


Hmm...that indicates they had a choice.....

Even the Shema has strong evidence of choice:

Deut 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.   5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
NIV


Again....why would God order us to love Him if He is pulling the strings to make us do it anyway?  If we are programmed to love God..is that actual love?  That's like making my computer say, "I love you John" 24/7.  The computer has no choice, therefore it's "love" is empty.

Further scriptures:

Deut 11:13-17

13 So if you faithfully obey the commands I am giving you today — to love the LORD your God and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul —  14 then I will send rain on your land in its season, both autumn and spring rains, so that you may gather in your grain, new wine and oil. 15 I will provide grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will eat and be satisfied.


(if we obey?  wait a second.....isn't He going to make us disobey or obey anyway?)

16 Be careful, or you will be enticed to turn away and worship other gods and bow down to them. 17 Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce, and you will soon perish from the good land the LORD is giving you.
NIV


Why do we have to "be careful" if we have no free will?  That's a sadistic "god" that would tell you to be careful and then force you to do it anyway.  

God repeats this choice again in the same chapter-

Deut 11:22

22 If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow — to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways and to hold fast to him


And the death stroke (in this chapter) to the hard determinism that Calvin teaches:

Deut 11:26-28
26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse —  27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today; 28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.
NIV


What about this one?

Deut 30:19-20

19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
NIV


Why would God Almighty Himself tell them to choose if they have no choice?  If they have no choice, then (and I say this for the purpose of arguement only), then god is lying here.

If it's neccessary, I'll continue to post dozens of scriptures (I'm not even out of the Pentetauch yet) regarding man's free will and/or his ability to choose...
Title: Re: Did you choose God or did He choose you?
Post by: John Oscar on December 30, 2006, 10:47:23 AM
Quote from: me again;38116
 John 3:16 is addressed exclusively to the sheep -- the goats are not eligible to enter heaven.  


No it's not.

John 3:16-17

16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
NIV

Read it without plugging Calvin's interpretation into it.  It's plain as day.

Jesus, being God, could have ended this debate right here if He would have just said, "For God so loved the elect, He gave His one and only Son, that whoever the Father forces or enables to believe will not perish, but have everlasting life."

He didn't say that....Jesus said, "the world", and I know He meant it.  He also said that whoever believes....indicates choice....
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: Tom on December 30, 2006, 11:02:27 AM
Quote from: John Oscar;38121
Okay....Here is the scripture:

First, we are created in the image of God (who has free will)


God is also omnipresent. Does this mean I am everywhere all at once? Let's see. I just tried to give you a wedgie. Did it work? No, darn I guess that argument is up in smoke.

Quote

Satan acknoweleged man's free will:

Gen 3:5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."


Knowledge does not equate in the ability to choose. I know that gravity holds my feet to the earth. I do not have the ability to choose not to be affected by it.
Quote

Let's stop there just for a second....

If Eve is a robot without a will of her own...is she then respondsible for eating the fruit?   :think:


First, nobody said Eve was a robot. Secondly, yes, she is responsible. Why you ask? Because God said so.


Quote

Throughout the major and minor prophets, God repeatedly calls people back to Him.  Here is a classic example:

Isa 1:18-20

18 "Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel,you will be devoured by the sword."
 For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.
NIV


Hmm...that indicates they had a choice.....

Even the Shema has strong evidence of choice:

Deut 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.   5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
NIV


Again....why would God order us to love Him if He is pulling the strings to make us do it anyway?  If we are programmed to love God..is that actual love?  That's like making my computer say, "I love you John" 24/7.  The computer has no choice, therefore it's "love" is empty.

Further scriptures:

Deut 11:13-17

13 So if you faithfully obey the commands I am giving you today — to love the LORD your God and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul —  14 then I will send rain on your land in its season, both autumn and spring rains, so that you may gather in your grain, new wine and oil. 15 I will provide grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will eat and be satisfied.


(if we obey?  wait a second.....isn't He going to make us disobey or obey anyway?)

16 Be careful, or you will be enticed to turn away and worship other gods and bow down to them. 17 Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce, and you will soon perish from the good land the LORD is giving you.
NIV


Why do we have to "be careful" if we have no free will?  That's a sadistic "god" that would tell you to be careful and then force you to do it anyway.  

God repeats this choice again in the same chapter-

Deut 11:22

22 If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow — to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways and to hold fast to him


And the death stroke (in this chapter) to the hard determinism that Calvin teaches:

Deut 11:26-28
26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse —  27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today; 28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.
NIV


What about this one?

Deut 30:19-20

19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
NIV


Why would God Almighty Himself tell them to choose if they have no choice?  If they have no choice, then (and I say this for the purpose of arguement only), then god is lying here.

If it's neccessary, I'll continue to post dozens of scriptures (I'm not even out of the Pentetauch yet) regarding man's free will and/or his ability to choose...



Throughout the entirety of Scripture God calls people to him, however, not everyone is capable of responding to that call. In fact, Jesus stated he taught in parables so that those who are not of the Kingdom would not understand, turn and be saved. Scripture also states that God sends strong delusions so that some would believe a lie and be damned.

Everyone has the choice, but only the elect can choose God because you must be enabled to do so. As Ed so eloquently stated, only the children of God can do so, just as we were chosen before the foundation of the world, so they have been damned.

It's his sand box he can do it anyway he wants.
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: John Oscar on December 30, 2006, 11:43:26 AM
So....

You are ignoring scriptural evidence and reading instead your (Calvin's) interpretation?

You wouldn't debate on the philosophical points (even though Me Again started with a largely philosophical argument), and asked for scripture.  

Scripture is provided, and I'll offer more if you want, and you don't debate that either, but just quote the party line (it's God's sandbox.....)
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: Tom on December 30, 2006, 01:56:01 PM
No, John the point is you have failed to produce any evidence and continue to spout the loose and misapplied interpretations of scripture that Arminianism is based on which are the foundation of the faulty doctrine of the denominations which teach such.
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: John Oscar on December 30, 2006, 03:19:16 PM
Actually Tom, we are right back where this conversation always ends- you and other Calvinist's refusing to see the plain truth of scripture because it doesn't fit your theology.  You are thinking the same thing of me....

This is why I'm hesitant to even get involved in this discussion, because it always ends here- me frustrated and wondering why you can't see the truth, and you thinking the same thing of me....
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: Tom on December 30, 2006, 07:38:36 PM
Quote from: John Oscar;38126
Actually Tom, we are right back where this conversation always ends- you and other Calvinist's refusing to see the plain truth of scripture because it doesn't fit your theology.  You are thinking the same thing of me....

This is why I'm hesitant to even get involved in this discussion, because it always ends here- me frustrated and wondering why you can't see the truth, and you thinking the same thing of me....



Yep, that's true.
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: Tom on December 30, 2006, 07:39:01 PM
I blame Ed for bringing it up again.
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: me again on December 30, 2006, 07:55:19 PM
Quote from: John Oscar;38126
Actually Tom, we are right back where this conversation always ends- you and other Calvinist's refusing to see the plain truth of scripture because it doesn't fit your theology.  You are thinking the same thing of me....

This is why I'm hesitant to even get involved in this discussion, because it always ends here- me frustrated and wondering why you can't see the truth, and you thinking the same thing of me....
If you could choose your way into heaven, then salvation becomes dependant on two variables:
1) First, the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
2) Second, the will of someone to believe in Jesus.

But #2 (above) is heresy because the only thing that can save a man is the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for His sheep -- and He knows who His sheep are e.g. my sheep hear my voice.  If a man's "will" could get him into heaven, then this scripture would be false: "for strait is the gate and narrow is the way [to salvation] and few there be that find it."  The bottom line: We are 100% dependant upon the mercy of God.  Not 99%, but 100%, to include giving Him the glory for saving us.  The credit for our salvation cannot be given to our "will."  

There are some people who say that if God is 100% sovern, to include the fact that He alone chooses who will enter His kingdom, then the blame for sin must be placed on Him.  But if that is His will, then those who would cast dispersion on Him by insinuating that He is responsible for sin -- are guilty of heresy.  Anyone who would insinuate that the sovernty of God is in any way responsible for the sin in the world is committing heresy -- even if they don't know it.  

God alone is sovern and He made the rules.  Anyone who casts dispersion on Him, simply because they disagree with his 100% sovernity (to include His will on who is saved and who is damned) is living in heresy. He alone is responsible for who gets saved -- and He proved it to His sheep by sacrificing His son on the cross (for the sheep).  The rest are damned.  :what:
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: John Oscar on December 30, 2006, 09:00:07 PM
Quote from: me again;38131

 We are 100% dependant upon the mercy of God.  Not 99%, but 100%, to include giving Him the glory for saving us.  The credit for our salvation cannot be given to our "will."  


What Calvinist's don't understand is that Arminius is 100% in agreement with this- only by the impowering of the Holy Spirit can an unregenerant man choose Christ.
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: me again on December 31, 2006, 06:09:52 AM
Quote from: John Oscar;38132
Quote from: me again;38131

 We are 100% dependant upon the mercy of God.  Not 99%, but 100%, to include giving Him the glory for saving us.  The credit for our salvation cannot be given to our "will."  
What Calvinist's don't understand is that Arminius is 100% in agreement with this- only by the impowering of the Holy Spirit can an unregenerant man choose Christ.
Do you believe that all have the ability to be empowered with the Holy Spirit, to include:I am of the opinion that being filled with the Holy Spirit is reserved for the elect. :smart:
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: John Oscar on December 31, 2006, 08:34:10 AM
The Holy Spirit came upon a donkey and made it speak and He came upon King Saul and he prophesied.

Zech 4:6b  'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty.


So yes, I do believe that the Spirit can touch unregenerate man and make him/her able to receive the gospel.  This prevenient grace can, however, be resisted.

As Tom so eloquently stated (paraphrased), it's His perogative to do what he wants.
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: me again on December 31, 2006, 10:30:01 AM
Quote from: John Oscar;38136
The Holy Spirit came upon a donkey and made it speak and He came upon King Saul and he prophesied.

Zech 4:6b  'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty.


So yes, I do believe that the Spirit can touch unregenerate man and make him/her able to receive the gospel.  This prevenient grace can, however, be resisted.

As Tom so eloquently stated (paraphrased), it's His perogative to do what he wants.
True... but the Holy Spirit coming upon an unsaved man or a donkey is vastly different than the eternal infilling of the Holy Ghost.  Would you agree that there is a difference?
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: Tom on December 31, 2006, 12:32:05 PM
An Arminian wouldn't agree that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is eternal. They're only saved as log as they meet some non-descript standard.

Where the double talk of their theology begins is that they state that salvation is only accomplished by God enabling a person to accept Him but they can resist it. So, Arminians are never really dead in their tresspasses and sins they are just really sick and there is enough good in them to be able to accept God if he enables the to do so, but, if they are really depraved they can resist it.

In other words, it is catholicism, minus infant baptism, confession, veneration of the saints and a celibate priesthood, ( or what appears to be a celibate priesthood).
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: Tom on December 31, 2006, 12:33:53 PM
Quote from: me again;38131
If you could choose your way into heaven, then salvation becomes dependant on two variables:
1) First, the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
2) Second, the will of someone to believe in Jesus.

But #2 (above) is heresy because the only thing that can save a man is the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for His sheep -- and He knows who His sheep are e.g. my sheep hear my voice.  If a man's "will" could get him into heaven, then this scripture would be false: "for strait is the gate and narrow is the way [to salvation] and few there be that find it."  The bottom line: We are 100% dependant upon the mercy of God.  Not 99%, but 100%, to include giving Him the glory for saving us.  The credit for our salvation cannot be given to our "will."  

There are some people who say that if God is 100% sovern, to include the fact that He alone chooses who will enter His kingdom, then the blame for sin must be placed on Him.  But if that is His will, then those who would cast dispersion on Him by insinuating that He is responsible for sin -- are guilty of heresy.  Anyone who would insinuate that the sovernty of God is in any way responsible for the sin in the world is committing heresy -- even if they don't know it.  

God alone is sovern and He made the rules.  Anyone who casts dispersion on Him, simply because they disagree with his 100% sovernity (to include His will on who is saved and who is damned) is living in heresy. He alone is responsible for who gets saved -- and He proved it to His sheep by sacrificing His son on the cross (for the sheep).  The rest are damned.  :what:



This post is the most accurate articulation of the truth of the Gospel I have ever read or heard.
Title: Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
Post by: John Oscar on December 31, 2006, 02:18:24 PM
Again, you are reading Calvinist objections into very clearly written posts.  No matter what I write, you're going to quote the party line instead of actually considering it.

I'll try one more time before giving up-

I believe, and for the most part agree with Arminius:

Man is completely dead in his sin (100%, totally, completely, buried and eaten by worms dead)  I can't make it any more clear then that, unless you want a visual of a rotten corpse.

Salvation is available to all.  That is John 3:16-17 as it is written, not through the thick lens of Calvin's interpretation.  (which I note, neither of you have ever provided a defense for other then trying to apply it to sheep only, which is horrible exegesis)

Grace is available to all, through the Holy Spirit's enabling.  Man will never choose God without this enabling.  It does not require infilling or regeneration, but a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit to enable man to see the light, albeit temporarily if they choose to remain unsaved.  I generally comes through the preaching of the Gospel.

If Jesus can make rocks cry out, donkey's talk, and unregenerate Saul and Baalam prophesy through the power of the Holy Spirit, why is it so hard for you to grasp that He can make men see the light, and want the light?  None of these recieved an "eternal indwelling".   We are talking about individual men here, not mankind in general.


This is off topic, but I'll still address it:

In regards to Tom's snip about eternal security- I believe we are eternally secure as far as God's concerned.  I do believe mankind can choose to walk away from God and His gracious gift, and loose his salvation.  You would have to cut dozens, if not hundreds of verses out of the bible to believe in a complete eternal security, starting with Jesus' and every apostle's warnings about persevering.

I also believe that once this happens, he is eternally damned (this is where I differ from Arminius), as he has grieved the Holy Spirit, and pretty much spit on Jesus.  It's the only way to recognize verses like Rom 8 with Hebrews.

I don't believe our security is as tenious as many, if not most, Arminian preachers would make it, and I understand that's where the misconception is.  To put it this way- if a person listening to the preaching is feeling conviction, they are still saved.  The likelyhood of someone who had been saved and lost it sticking around to here the Gospel is pretty slim...