Where Clergy and Laypeople Discuss God

SCHOOL of THEOLOGY => Religion & Theology => Topic started by: John Oscar on April 15, 2012, 09:14:33 AM

Title: Concealed Carry
Post by: John Oscar on April 15, 2012, 09:14:33 AM
Here in Wisconsin, we've recently passed a law allowing law abiding citizens to carry a concealed firearm, providing they qualify for a license to do so.  A clean police record and evidence of firearms training are required.

For the sake of full disclosure, I have applied and did recieve one of these licenses.  In my case, my proof of training was my DD214 showing prior military service.  However, in doing so, I've gotten some heat from people, who say that Christians shouldn't be carrying firearms as Jesus was a man of peace.

What are your thoughts about Christians carrying firearms?  How about in church?
Title: Re: Concealed Carry
Post by: Tom on April 17, 2012, 05:48:40 AM
Luke 22:36 He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. ESV

People who think that Jesus was a pacifist worship a Jesus which is a creation of their own imagination and is not the Biblical Jesus. When Jesus taught to turn the other cheek He was referring to insult not life threatening attack. Those who consider Jesus to be a pacifist should read Revelation 19 and consider how many millions He is going to kill as His first order of business upon His return. The Bible teaches that a man that does not care for his own is worse than an unbeliever. Protecting ones family is the purest form of that. This does not even address the whole Romans 13 issue about not bearing the sword in vain. God created the death penalty and God created war. It's all part of His plan and purpose. For a man to know what is right and not do it for him that is sin. Protecting those who can't protect themselves against predators, the demonized and the insane is God's work and He thankfully invites us to join Him in that work.

Pacifist are parasites in a free society. Actually they are worse than parasites. They live off the freedom provided them by men who are willing to what is necessary to provide a free society where people can live in peace and maintain property. They are worse than parasites because a parasite does not sit in judgement of it's host. Pacifist do. They enjoy the freedom and the peaceful society and judge those who provide it.

IMHO this is one of the reasons the church is so weak today. Christianity has been hijacked by sissies.
Title: Re: Concealed Carry
Post by: Tom on April 17, 2012, 03:11:58 PM
Here is what I think about carrying firearms in church.


I saw an interview sometime back of an off duty police officer who was unarmed and present when this shooting took place. He was extremely remorseful that he was unarmed. He stated that all he could do once the shooting started was to lie on top of his family members and pray that the gunman didn't shoot them. He stated that he had the skill, the knowledge and the training to be able to stop that attacker and save some of the lives, however, he lacked the tool to do so. He won't make that mistake again.

I carry a full size 1911 .45 everywhere I go off duty without exception. No one ever knows I have it. I carry it in a Milt Sparks Versa Max II in the waistband holster. It doesn't matter if I'm wearing a pair of shorts and a tank top or jeans and a t-shirt the weapon is totally concealed. I live in one of the last states to deny people their constitutional right to carry weapons for their protection and I feel that it would be completely irresponsible of me to not carry considering I'm on of the few that have the legal right to do so. Also, the fact that the county I live and work in has the highest crime rate per capita in the state is also a big incentive. I truly hope I never have to shoot anyone but if I'm ever put in the position where it comes down to a choice between them or me or them and an innocent victim I will shoot them and shoot them effectively without hesitation. The decision has already been made.
Title: Re: Concealed Carry
Post by: saved on April 18, 2012, 12:01:43 PM
John I would first ask the person since they are claiming that Jesus is a Man of Peace does that mean they would not defend themselves or their family under any circumstance?
I see no reason why a Christian cannot own and or carry a weapon based on scripture. I won't get started in the unconstitutional gun laws by our legislators, but I think you have every right as a Christian to carry a weapon.
Title: Re: Concealed Carry
Post by: John Oscar on April 19, 2012, 07:17:28 PM
I completely agree with both of you.  I don't have a qualm about it, but some in my church have expressed concern (not to my face obviously).

I agree that those of use who have the training and williness to take a stand against those who would harm others have a God given mandate to do just that.

Tom, I live right across the border in Wisconsin.  It's a realy pain in the butt to have to take my weapon off, unload it, secure it in a bag and lock it just to jump across the border to visit friends.  You guys really need to get that law changed...
Title: Re: Concealed Carry
Post by: Tom on April 19, 2012, 11:31:34 PM
They've been trying. It's the Chicago left wingers that shut it down. If Chicago would slide into Lake Michigan Illinois would be a much better state. The weather would still be terrible but it would be a conservative state with significantly less corruption. We currently have 3 former governors in prison.
Title: Re: Concealed Carry
Post by: John Oscar on April 20, 2012, 12:15:48 PM
They've been trying. It's the Chicago left wingers that shut it down. If Chicago would slide into Lake Michigan Illinois would be a much better state. The weather would still be terrible but it would be a conservative state with significantly less corruption. We currently have 3 former governors in prison.

The US Senate has a bill on the floor to force states to recognize each other's concealed carry permits if they issue them at all.  Normally, I'm a states rights kind of person, but I'd really like to see this law passed so you only need one license instead of 3-5 to carry through most of the country (except IL who doesn't allow it at all.)
Title: Re: Concealed Carry
Post by: Tom on April 20, 2012, 02:16:11 PM
I think it's ridiculous that a license is required at all. If you're not a felon or haven't been declared incompetent or insane you should be able to carry anywhere as long as you're a US citizen. The words "shall not be infringed" come to mind. Only tyrants, criminals and predators need to fear an honest citizen with a gun. Unfortunately, this truth describes a good portion of our elected officials. The bad guys already have guns.

 It's getting really bad here. We are having three or four armed robberies a night. A while back in the news there was a story which got national coverage about an off duty officer that shot three armed robbers in a pizza restaurant. He works for my agency dayshift on the same rotation I'm on.

The reverends are getting a foothold here too. We had an incident where two of the city officers chased a wanted suspect on foot and he ran into a ghetto church daycare. They followed him into the daycare and he hid in a furnace room. When the officer went in to get him he grabbed the officers gun and the police shot and killed him. Jesse Jackson and the mopes all came down and marched over that one. The Mayor and the city Chief caved and brought in some "consultants" from Oakland who have never even been police officers. They got paid a bunch of money to say that although the officers didn't violate policy there were "problems" with the policies in place. One of the officers involved had previously been involved in three line of duty shootings and that didn't help. One left the job on a stress related disability pension and the other got canned and is suing the city.

We have a no chase policy for just about everything so if the bad guys make it to a car they're free. We were chasing an individual wanted on a murder warrant the other night and the supervisor ordered that the pursuit be discontinued. If you can't chase a murder suspect who can you chase? I really ca't say I blame the supervisor. The way the policy is written if things go bad and somebody gets hurt, even the guy running, everybody involved is getting sued. The policy basically puts such stringent restrictions on the chase even if it is technically warranted that it would be impossible to catch the guy and follow the policy.

For years the robberies and shootings mostly happened in the bad neighborhoods but thats not the case anymore. They happen everywhere. We have a business corridor where the money is and there are armed robberies to both citizens and businesses in that area regularly now. There was a shootout in the parking lot of Applebee's there last summer and two guys were murderd and over 70, 7.62mm AK rounds were fired. It took over 4 months to take the shooter into custody because he kept making into a car and running and the chase would get called off by the brass. That's the nice side of town.

I said all that to say this. Anybody that is counting on the police for their immediate personal protection is misguided. We can't do it. There aren't enough of us and they have one arm tied behind our backs.

Title: Re: Concealed Carry
Post by: John Oscar on April 20, 2012, 04:38:32 PM
Unless forbidden by law, I carry everywhere I go.  At first it seemed a bit excessive to me, but then I realized I've had life insurance for over 20 years, and even when money was tight, we paid the premium.
That's what I consider my Ruger SR9- life insurance.

In principle I agree with constitutional carry.  Ted Nugent said it best- "The Second Amendment is my concealed carry permit- Period!"

In practice, I'm a bit leary about it and kinda doubt my fellow man's respondsiblity to obtain proper training in the use of force or even the use of a firearm.  A friend of mine works at a popular gun store, and he is telling me about 1/3 of the people coming in to buy pistols have never even held one before, and have only shot a rifle/shotgun enough times to get their hunters safety permit to qualify for CCP.

I suppose the flip side of that arguement is it's better to arm them in principle to give the bad guys second thoughts on doing what bad guys do...

Either way, I'm very happy that I can now legally carry and defend myself, family, and church should the need arise.  Now if we could only get enough votes in IL to put it to referendum...