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SCHOOL of THEOLOGY => Religion & Theology => Topic started by: Stan on August 29, 2014, 09:43:02 AM

Title: The doctrine of HELL FIRE, not biblical nor does it make common sense work
Post by: Stan on August 29, 2014, 09:43:02 AM
The wages of sin is what?
The gift of God is what?
Romans 6:23

Does John 3:16 say the unbelievers/sinners PERISH or BURN forever in a lake of fire?

http://time.com/3207274/5-reasons-christians-are-rejecting-the-notion-of-hell/
Title: Re: The doctrine of HELL FIRE, not biblical nor does it make common sense work
Post by: rstrats on September 21, 2014, 06:40:49 AM
I just don't understand why folks want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is simply no clear scripture to support that belief. I don't understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster. I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to. Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn't satisfy certain requirements? I just don't understand why they wouldn't rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn't or couldn't meet these requirements and didn't develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.
Title: Re: The doctrine of HELL FIRE, not biblical nor does it make common sense work
Post by: Quasar on October 05, 2014, 09:57:41 AM
The wages of sin is what?
The gift of God is what?
Romans 6:23

Does John 3:16 say the unbelievers/sinners PERISH or BURN forever in a lake of fire?

http://time.com/3207274/5-reasons-christians-are-rejecting-the-notion-of-hell/


However, the Scriptures firmly attest to the fact that all who do not believe in God's only begotten Son are condemned already, as recorded in Jn.3:18.  In addition to those who sin against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven now or in the next age, as recorded in Mt.12:30-32.  Such as those who attribute the works of the Holy Spirit, who is God, to something other than God, such as evolution. 

Review the following passages as an example: Isa.66:24;  Mt.3:12;  Mt.25:41, 46;  Mk.9:48 and Rev.20:15.


Quasar   
Title: Re: The doctrine of HELL FIRE, not biblical nor does it make common sense work
Post by: Stan on October 05, 2014, 10:03:22 AM
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Title: Re: The doctrine of HELL FIRE, not biblical nor does it make common sense work
Post by: Stan on October 05, 2014, 10:16:33 AM
Sorry I should have only had one Bible text per post, it is easier to respond to.

Question is this.
What is the difference between everlasting punishment and everlasting punishing?

These are meant for discussion...
Title: Re: The doctrine of HELL FIRE, not biblical nor does it make common sense work
Post by: Quasar on October 06, 2014, 12:31:42 AM
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.



"Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."  Jn.3:18  NIV

See also:  : Isa.66:24;  Mt.3:12;  Mt.25:41, 46;  Mk.9:48 and Rev.20:15.
.


Quasar
Title: Re: The doctrine of HELL FIRE, not biblical nor does it make common sense work
Post by: Stan on October 06, 2014, 06:49:37 AM


"Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."  Jn.3:18  NIV

See also:  : Isa.66:24;  Mt.3:12;  Mt.25:41, 46;  Mk.9:48 and Rev.20:15.

Quasar

AMEN
The wages of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life.

The are condemned to eternal death. No second chance, we are living in our second chance.
Title: Re: The doctrine of HELL FIRE, not biblical nor does it make common sense work
Post by: Stan on October 06, 2014, 06:55:33 AM
Just to clarify, I am not meaning to say they do not get punished after the judgement, but rather they are put to eternal death.

The universe will be free of sin once again, and there will be no more pain, suffering or death. ANYWHERE.
Title: Re: The doctrine of HELL FIRE, not biblical nor does it make common sense work
Post by: me again on October 06, 2014, 10:33:12 AM
Jesus presented the concept of continued life after the death of the mortal body when Jesus told the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Jesus did not present a demonic concept, but he presented an eternal reality.

Jesus said that when his mortal body died, he would raise himself back up (John 2:19) (https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%202:19). He did. If Jesus had temporarily "ceased to exist" when his mortal body died, then he could not have raised himself from the dead. Food for thought.

Hummmmm I wonder if this will be the first internet argument in the history of the worldwide web where I've changed someone's mind... mmmmm....
Title: Re: The doctrine of HELL FIRE, not biblical nor does it make common sense work
Post by: Stan on October 06, 2014, 05:44:08 PM
Jesus presented the concept of continued life after the death of the mortal body when Jesus told the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Jesus did not present a demonic concept, but he presented an eternal reality.

Jesus said that when his mortal body died, he would raise himself back up (John 2:19) (https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John%202:19). He did. If Jesus had temporarily "ceased to exist" when his mortal body died, then he could not have raised himself from the dead. Food for thought.

Hummmmm I wonder if this will be the first internet argument in the history of the worldwide web where I've changed someone's mind... mmmmm....

Jesus raised himself from the dead. He is God, so he can do that.  That part can never die.
Title: Re: The doctrine of HELL FIRE, not biblical nor does it make common sense work
Post by: John Oscar on October 07, 2014, 07:15:27 AM
Jesus on hell being a fire- Matt 5:22, Matt 6:30, Matt 7:19, Matt 25:41, Mark 9:43, 48-49 (also talks of being eternal), Luke 16:24
Rev 20:14-15 speaks both of fire and it's eternity.  That is by far NOT an exhaustive list.

Something from my personal study (from various commentaries/authors)- Do you know why God had Adam first, then Moses institute burnt offerings for the sin/atonement offerings in the bible?  Because it would point to the final destination of sin and the sinner- the lake of fire.  The animal was suffering the payment for sin for us, until the Lamb of God did it for us.
Title: Re: The doctrine of HELL FIRE, not biblical nor does it make common sense work
Post by: me again on October 08, 2014, 07:37:43 AM
Jesus on hell being a fire- Matt 5:22, Matt 6:30, Matt 7:19, Matt 25:41, Mark 9:43, 48-49 (also talks of being eternal), Luke 16:24
Rev 20:14-15 speaks both of fire and it's eternity.  That is by far NOT an exhaustive list.

Something from my personal study (from various commentaries/authors)- Do you know why God had Adam first, then Moses institute burnt offerings for the sin/atonement offerings in the bible?  Because it would point to the final destination of sin and the sinner- the lake of fire.  The animal was suffering the payment for sin for us, until the Lamb of God did it for us.
Wow, I never saw that before. Excellent observation.
Title: Re: The doctrine of HELL FIRE, not biblical nor does it make common sense work
Post by: Quasar on October 16, 2014, 11:51:37 PM
1. The KJV translated OT Hebrew Sheol as Hell, regardless of whether it refers to temporal or permanent punishment intended from the original translations.

2. The NIV translated it as the grave, when it is also the place where the spirits of the dead went in the OT times.

Quote from the Bible Dictionary describes Hell as follows:

"The real existence of hell is irrefutably taught in Scripture as both a place of the wicked dead and a condition of retribution for unredeemed man. It is plain that 'to die in sin' is a dreadful thing. [e.g. Ez.3:18; NIV footnote].

The nature of hell is indicated by the repeated reference to eternal punishment [Mt.25:46], eternal fire [Mt.18:8, Jude 7], everlasting chains [Jude 6], the pit of the Abyss [Rev.9:2, 11], outer darkness [Mt.8:12], the wrath of God [Rom.2:5, second death [Rev.21:8], eternal destruction from the face of God [2 Thes.1:9], and eternal sin [Mk.3:29]. While some of these terms are symbolic and descriptive, they connote real entities, about whose existence there can be no doubt."  End of quote.


To start with, both the English term Hell, as well as the Greek term Hades come from the transliteration of the OT Hebrew term, Sheol - which has several meanings. Therein come the mistranslations.

First of all, the direction for Sheol is always downward, into the earth below. The first meaning for Sheol, is simply reference to the grave for the dead body. All in all, Sheol was believed to be temporary, in connection with the wicked, but not the righteous, which will be covered a little later on.

In the second place, both the wicked as well as the righteous spirit/souls went to Sheol when the body died, in the OT [As found in Jesus narrative of Lk.16:19-31 about Lazarus and the rich man, which is a perfect profile of Sheol]. The righteous went there because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins, according to Heb.10:4. Therefore, the righteous ones in Sheol, had to await Jesus death and resurrection before their sins were forgiven them, as Paul explains in Rom.3:25-26, as well as in Ps.49:14-15.

In the third place, documentation Sheol was the place where the wicked went, separated from God and awaiting judgement, in Ps.6:5; 30:3, 9; 88:3-6; Job 17:13-16 and Isa.38:18.

The next important element in the Biblical teachings about  Hell, comes from the Hebrew term, 'Topheth,' in Jer.7:31-32, which means, 'Place of fire,' that was located in the Valley of [ben] Hinnom,' or the Valley of the son of Hinnom,' or just plain, 'the Valley of Hinnom' [It is now nothing but a rubbish dump], with the fire going continually as a reminder of its origins, as follows:

It received its name from the wicked kings of Judah, Ahaz and Manasseh, who sacrificed their own children to the god, Molech, through the fire at Topheth, which formed part of the border between Judah and Benjamin. [2 Kgs.16:3 and 2 Chr.28:3 re Ahaz, and 2 Kgs.21:6 and 2 Chr.33:6 re Manasseh].

The Greeks used the term, Gehenna [Also geenna], to describe the Valley of the son of Hinnom, meaning, the 'place of fire,' in Hebrew, or 'The Lake of Fire," in English, the place of permanent punisment for the wicked. Jesus used this very term in the following passages of Scripture that were rendered 'Hell' in the KJV. [Mt.5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mk.9:43, 45, 47; Lk.12:5. James also used it in Jas.3:6]. In each case, Jesus clearly meant, permanent punishment.  The term Tartarus is found in some translations, in 2 Pet.4:2, in reference to the fallen angels/sons of God, found in Gen.6:2 and 4.

The Greek term Hades is used to describe the 'state of the dead,' and was considered temporal, in contrast to the permanent punishment of the wicked, described by their term, "Gehenna." Hades was the Greek god of the lower regions. The KJV rendered it 'Hell' ten times, when it should have been translated Gehenna, for permanent punishment.

Therefore, there are two parts to Hell: those in [temporal] Tartarus, Sheol, Hades and Hell, awaiting the second resurrection and great white throne judgement, and those whose names are not found written in the book of life, will be thrown into [Gehenna] the Lake of Fire - along with death, and [temporal] Tartarus, Hades [Sheol and Hell]. Rev.20:11-15.


Blessings,


Quasar