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Messages - Lysimachus

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I already refuted all the above.  From beginning to end.  Go back to my original posts, and you will see how I dismantled your calculations.  Bob Pickle thoroughly refuted you as well, but you are in denial.  You are just repeating yourself to give yourself the appearance of being knowledgeable, but it is deceptive. Go back and read all my original calculations.

What is hilarious about your above response, is that all you need to do is scroll up to my previous responses, and those previous responses already refute your arguments in your last post.

I have read your link and find no fault with the math in it, but you are in error for the starting date of Dan.9:24-27!

From the very beginning, according to the Scriptures, the starting date of your thread is in error and the very reason why it falls like dominoes! 
Ezra 7:7-8 reveals the decree by Artaxerxes was in his 7th year of reign, which by most expositors was in the year 457 B.C.  However, nowhere in the context of the passage of Scripture describing his decree, does it say a single thing about rebuilding Jerusalem, the walls and streets, from verses 11-20.  But rather, it is about restoring the gold and silver taken from the first temple by the Babylonians, and anything else needed FOR THE TEMPLE!

The commencement of the 70 weeks cannot begin until the following criteria are met:

1. Commandment to restore Jerusalem
2. To Build Jerusalem
3. The Build the Plaza (aka, street) and Wall even in troublous times

(Daniel 9:25)

Ezra 6:14 -- "And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia."

Ezra 6:14 speaks of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes issuing a single decree, as if Cyrus began the process (Isa 44:28; 45:13), Darius affirmed it (Ezra 6:1), and Artaxerxes completed it (Ezra 6:14; 7; 9:9).

Why did the 70 weeks not begin with Cyrus' decree? Because the decree was a process that Cyrus began, Darius affirmed, and Artaxerxes completed, as indicated by the singular "commandment" in Ezra 6:14.

How did Artaxerxes complete it? Dan. 9 said "from the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem." Cyrus and Darius dealt with building, not restoring.

Isaiah 1:26 - "And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city."

The decree of Ezra 7 given in Artaxerxes' 7th year restored the judges to the point that they could enforce the law of God on pain of death, and thus completed the decree process foretold by Daniel.

For the most complete exhaustive work proving the these dates with razor sharp precision, take a look at the following in-depth analysis which completely repudiates and dismantles the Dispensational-Futurist teachings of Anderson and Hohner:

1. "An Examination of Anderson's Chronological Errors Regarding Daniel 9's First 69 Weeks.":
http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/sir-robert-anderson.htm - Dispensational eschatology, as portrayed on Left Behind, depends on an adequate explanation of the first 69 weeks. Anderson is often quoted, and yet his theories are contradicted by plain facts about calendars and history.

2. "Dr. Harold Hohner's Refinements of Anderson's Theory: Are They Sound?":
http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/harold-hoehner-70-weeks.htm - Hoehner and Ice's Calculations of Daniel 9's First 69 Weeks" - Acknowledges the four improvements over Anderson that Dr. Hoehner has provided. Examines the chronological difficulties still present in his calculations of Daniel 9's 70 weeks, and suggests an alternative interpretation unencumbered by such difficulties.
The only decree in the bible that the beginning of Daniels's prophecy in 9:24-27 is based on is that of the decree by Artaxerxes in his 20th year of reign, recorded in Neh.2:1-8, in 444/445 B.C.  The exact year is unknown to anyone, but is still a remarkable fit to it, anyway.  The same is true, whether there are 173,880 days in the 483 years of the 69 Weeks fulfilled, or 173,884, which by most expositors makes no difference at all, and none at all to me.

Notice when Ezra was singing a song of praise after the decree of 457 B.C.:

"For we were bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us a reviving, to SET UP the HOUSE OF OUR GOD, and to REPAIR THE DESOLATIONS THEREOF, and to GIVE US A WALL IN JUDAH AND IN JERUSALEM." (Ezra 9:9)

Also, many fail to realize that the commandment to build and restore Jerusalem is not isolated to one single decree. The decree was a process that Cyrus began (Isaiah 44:28; 45:13 - concerning the rebuilding of Jerusalem), Darius affirmed (Ezra 6:1-13), and Artaxerxes completed, as indicated by the singular "commandment" (Ezra 6:14)


"And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the COMMANDMENT of the GOD OF ISRAEL, and according to the COMMANDMENT of CYRUS, and DARIUS, and ARTAXERXES king of Persia." (Ezra 6:14)

These three commandments embodied the single "commandment" given in Ezra 6:14 given above and in Daniel 9:25 shown below:

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the COMMANDMENT to RESTORE and to BUILD JERUSALEM unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." (Daniel 9:25)

Notice that this commandment beginning with Cyrus:

Isaiah 44:28 - "That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to JERUSALEM, THOU SHALT BE BUILT; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid."

Isaiah 45:13 "I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: HE SHALL BUILD MY CITY, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts."

It is also noteworthy, according to Bob Pickle, that "Isaiah 1:26 predicted that the judiciary would be "restored," using the very same Hebrew word that is translated "restore" in Daniel 9:25. Artaxerxes' unique contribution to the commandment process was that he fully restored the judiciary by the decree of his seventh year, giving Jerusalem full authority to enforce the law of God (Ezra 7:25, 26)."

Therefore, 457 B.C. meets the criteria of...

1. Isaiah 1:26
2. Isaiah 44:28; 45:13
3. Ezra 4:7-23
4. Ezra 6:14
5. Ezra 7
6. Ezra 9:9
7. Daniel 9:25

Pickle also insightfully states...

"- Dating from Artaxerxes' 20th year has not been without difficulty in the past, since there is no decree recorded from that year in the book of Nehemiah.

- Daniel 9:25 specified two things for the decree that must be used for the beginning of the prophecy: 1) "restoring" and 2) "building" Jerusalem.

- It was prophesied of Cyrus that he would command Jerusalem to be built: "That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid" (Is. 44:28; cf. 45:13).

- It was also prophesied by Isaiah that God would "restore" Jerusalem's judiciary: "And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city" (Is. 1:26).

- While Cyrus' decree of Ezra 1:2-4 and Darius' decree of Ezra 6:1-12 called for building, it is only in Artaxerxes' decree from his 7th year, as recorded in Ezra 7:12-26, that we find a call for restoring the judges.

- The decrees of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes' 7th year are referred to in Ezra 6:14 as if they are but one decree. It is as if Cyrus began the decree and Artaxerxes finished it, which explains why Daniel 9:25 speaks of one "commandment to restore and build." Once this commandment process was complete, the 70 weeks could begin."

Starting to get clearer Quasar?


The 70 weeks are not based on Jubilee years, they are based on Sabbatical years. Although the Jubilee ties into it, the evidence that the 70 weeks is in alignment with the Sabbatical cycles (7 years) is overwhelming. Just the fact that it says "70 weeks ", an allusion to sevens but couched in symbolic days, is a testament in and of it self.

Please read the following on the 70 weeks and the Sabbaticals:

I encourage you to read this study in full, as it will answer just about all of the objections that are probably flashing through your mind right now. ;)


Hello Nats, thank you for your comment.

Lysimachus, you sound a lot like myself when I first started posting about the rapture doctrine. I thought it was a good presentation.

Consider this question though,
when Christ descends, at His coming,
where does He descend to?
The Answer is in Zech.14 and Acts 1:1-12
As you see Him Ascend, in like manner you will see Him descend.
Where was He standing?
He doesn’t stop short of the earth.

Ah, you have just opened up the single-biggest can of worms when it comes to an understanding of the millennium brother! ;)  Yes, I am well aware of your position.

I can easily answer your question above, but I will warn you, it will most definitely escalate into a completely different realm of discussion.  I will tell you, however, that I have wrestled with these arguments over the last 15 years. Now, I'll be up front with you. I'm not going to lie.  The eschatological construct of the Second Advent and Millennium that I subscribe to is that of the Seventh-Day Adventist position.  I beg of you not to let our discussion evolve into discussing Adventism (I was born in a 4th generation Adventist home), so let's be sensitive to each other's backgrounds. Deal?

At the same time, keep in mind that while I grew up Adventist, I did not really know what I believed during most of my youth, so therefore, one day, after almost losing my leg from a severe injury, and God waking me up to spiritual things, I began to study like never before. My conclusions are not based on my upbringing, but based off of my own personal years of 1. Reading my Bible with much prayer, 2. Reading many theological books from many different sides, 3. Spending time associating and fellowshiping with other people from many different denominational backgrounds and theological persuasions, and traveling extensively all over the US. My view of the millennium is based off of not only my personal research, but some of the most exhaustive theological works---some of the best coming from our Adventist pioneers such as James White, Uriah Smith, J. N. Andrews, J. N. Loughborough, Prescott, A. T. Jones, J. H. Waggoner, E. J. Waggoner, S. N. Haskell, G. I. Buttler, A. G. Daniells, etc. etc.

So here is your answer in a nutshell:

Zechariah 14 is not describing the Second Coming.  It's describing the Third Coming at the end of the Millennium.

At the Second Advent, Premillennially, Christ descends from heaven in the clouds, and all the saints are caught up to meet Him in the air.  All the wicked at this time are destroyed by the brightness of His Coming.  The saints follow Christ and are transported up to the Heavenly Jerusalem, in heaven, to reign with Christ a thousand years.  The wicked remain dead on this earth for 1000 years, while Satan and his demons are trapped on this desolated planet, with no man to tempt or manipulate.  I'm not backing this up from scripture right now as I don't have much time, but just know that if you want a full and thorough presentation, I can link you to a number of threads in other forums where I go into great depth concerning the Second Coming, the Millennium, the Third Advent, and Zechariah 14. 

This dark, uninhabited earth will be the "bottomless pit", or "abyss" where Satan will dwell for 1000 years, while the saints are in the New Jerusalem judging the wicked, reviewing the judgments of God and determining the degree of punishment for each of the wicked.

At the end of the 1000, Christ and all the saints return to the earth WITH the New Jerusalem, that Beloved City.  Christ descends upon the Mount of Olives, and a great plain is formed.  This is where the New Jerusalem will settle.  All the wicked that ever lived are resurrected.  Satan now goes out to deceive, or convince these wicked nations that they have a chance against the New Jerusalem, and convinces them to besiege the city.

Zechariah 14 will now be fulfilled "antitypically".  Not identically according to the typological nature of every description in the chapter, as was originally prophesied, since parts of this prophecy contained conditional elements which may have happened in that form had Israel remained faithful. All the wicked then become the recepients of the "Second Death" (it means they all died once before), and are forever eliminated along with Satan and his wicked angels.

Anyway, the earthly reign commences postmillennially.  But we will not find one single allusion to a reign on the earth during the millennium.  The scriptures are enormous that after the Second Advent, the earth will be one desolate wilderness, "for many days".

Religion & Theology / Re: Sabbath Keeping Churches
« on: December 18, 2012, 11:46:03 AM »

I've exhausted too much research already now into the day of the resurrection, and I promise you it was Sunday.  Ever single drip of blood out of the turnip has been squeezed, and in the end of the day, Sunday is the last resort for the resurrection.

Excellent study:

http://www.WednesdayCrucifixion.com (also destroys a Thursday crucifixion).

Also, the "heart of the earth" does not begin in the Tomb.  It began Thursday night when he was handed over to the Jewish and Roman authorities by Judas. Uriah Smith did a profound job at proving what the "heart of the earth" meant.  Thursday night of His release to the mob began the "three days and three nights".

We have also extensively dealt with this argument with some of our best researchers and posts at ClubAdventist.com.  Those who espouse a Sabbath resurrection do not stand a chance.

Quote from: Quasar
First, posttribulationism requires that the church will be present during the 70th week of Daniel (Dan. 9:24-27) even though it was absent from the first 69.

Adventists do not believe that there is such thing as a future 70th week, so this is not even a problem for us.  Nowhere in Daniel 9:24-27 does it say anyone will be absent through it. The future tribulation to come is not related whatsoever with the 70th week.  It is a complete different time period altogether.  In addition, Paul is very clear in 2 Thessalonians 2 that Antichrist comes "first" before the great Day of the Lord--the day of the rapture.

Quote from: Quasar
This is in spite of the fact that Daniel 9:24 says that all 70 weeks are for Israel. Pretribulationism is not in conflict with this passage, as is posttribulationism, since the church departs before the beginning of the seven-year period.

The 7 year period began in 27 A.D. and terminated in 34 A.D.  The "he" in Daniel 9:27 is Jesus Christ, and He was "cut off" in the "midst of the 70th week". He was crucified in 31 A.D., and brought an end to the sacrificial system and its value.

Quote from: Quasar
Second, posttribulationism must deny the New Testament teaching of imminency-that Christ could come at any-moment. Pretribulationism does not have a problem with these New Testament passages, since they believe that no signs must precede the rapture.

It will still be imminent. The signs will tell us when it is near, even at the doors, but for the wicked, they will not be heeding the signs.  They will be children of the dark.  The Second Coming will catch them by surprise.  But God's people who have been purified and refined will not be caught unawares. They will be ready to receive Him when He appears in the clouds.

Quote from: Quasar
Third, premillennial posttribulationism has no answer to their problem of who will populate the millennium if the rapture and second coming occur at the same time. Since all believers will be translated at the rapture and all unbelievers judged, because no unrighteous shall be allowed to enter Christ's kingdom, then no one would be left in mortal bodies to start the population base for the millennium. The pre-trib viewpoint does not have a problem at this point.

This not a problem at all for Adventists, because we believe the earth will be completely depopulated during the millennium, and the reign with Christ will be in heaven, in the New Jerusalem, with our glorified bodies. The earthly reign begins at the end of the millennium, after the earth is made new. Yet the Second Coming is still premillennial.

Here are some articles proving it:


Quote from: Quasar
Fourth, posttribulationism is not able to explain the sheep and goats judgment after the second coming in Matthew 25:31-46. As in the previous problem, how would there be any believers in mortal bodies, if they were raptured at the second coming, who would be available to enter into Christ's kingdom? Pretribulationism does not have such a problem.

This division between the sheep and the goats will be realized at the end of the millennium, when all the saints are safely inside the New Jerusalem, while all the resurrected wicked are outside the New Jerusalem.  There is no problem here at all.

Quote from: Quasar
Fifth, since Revelation 19:7-8 indicates that the church, Christ's Bride, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth (Rev. 19:14) before the second coming, how could this reasonably happen if part of the church is still on earth awaiting Christ's Advent? If the rapture of the church takes place at the second coming, then how does the Bride (i.e., the church) also come with Christ at His return? There would not be sufficient time for this to happen within a posttribulational sequence, but the pre-trib position has no such problem.

Revelation 19:7-8 mentions nothing about the saints making themselves ready to accompany Christ to the earth. These saints being clothed in fine linen are the saints getting ready for Jesus to come and pick them up.  In verse 14, it says "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." It does not say these are Church saints. 

Revelation 15:6 does however tell us that angels are clothed in pure and white and clean linen. So these armies in 19:14 could very well be angels.

However, even if saints are involved coming with Christ at the Second Advent, there are many Old Testament saints that went to heaven with Christ at His ascension. See Psalms 68:18; Ephesians 4:8; Matthew 27:52,53. Christ took to heaven many captives with Him to heaven from the Old Testament. These Old Testament saints will most likely descend with Christ and all the angels at the Second Advent. 

The fine, pure, clean, and white linen will be on both the angels and all those saints that went to heaven--including Moses, Elijah, Enoch, and all the Old Testament saints that were resurrected and ascended to heaven (in their glorified bodies) with Christ when he led captivity captive.

Prophecy & End Time Events / Re: Partial Rapture
« on: April 03, 2012, 02:00:37 PM »
There is no question that scriptures do teach that the saints will be gathered up into the clouds and taken to the New Jerusalem where God dwells.   Many Christians, in order to try and debunk the pre-trib rapture theory, end up swinging the pendulum to the opposite direction and going from one ditch to the other--by declaring there is no rapture at all.  This doesn't impress those who espouse a pre-trib or post-trib rapture, it only turns them away.

The Adventist position of the rapture is the only one that makes any Biblical sense. 

It's very simple, and solves ALL eschatological problems.

At the Second Coming, every saint, from Adam to the last righteous man, is caught up and gathered into the heavens with Christ and taken to the New Jerusalem. 

The earth will be left void--a desolate wilderness--for 1000 years.

At the end of the 1000 years, the New Jerusalem, with Christ and all the saints descend to the earth.  The wicked nations are resurrected, Satan goes out to deceive them to besiege the Beloved City, and fire comes down out of heaven to devour them. 

The earth is then made new.

This event--which is post-millennial, is not the Second Advent, but a Third Coming.

Adventism adheres to a Pre-Millennial view of the Second Coming.  Just not an "earthly premillennial" view, but a "heavenly premillennial" view.

Accept this view, and you just solved all the eschatological problems that existed between the pre-trib, the post-trib, the pre-millennial, and the post-millennial advocates. 

This view is in alignment with the basic understanding of the Second Coming by the Reformers:

That at the Second Coming of Jesus, all the saints go to heaven. :)

Very simple.

Only the Adventist eschatological construct can make room for this to work in light of the 1000 year millennium.

Religion & Theology / Re: Sabbath Keeping Churches
« on: February 24, 2012, 08:39:58 PM »
The above is an excellent post.

Jesus said, "I did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it." Instead of abolishing the law, Jesus DID fulfill it -- and now the OT law is abolished and is replaced with moral NT grace, which is written in our hearts instead of on two tablets of stone.

The Saturday sabbath is specifically a sign for the Jews after they were brought of of Egypt.  Sunday worship is a sign for those who believe that Christ was resurrected on that day.

It is impossible for you or anyone else to convince a Saturday sabbatarian that he is no longer bound by the Jewish Saturday sabbath as a sign to God. Only the Holy Spirit can enlighten them -- and nobody else.

Where in the scriptures does it say that it is grace that is written in our hearts?

So far, I have found it is only the law of God.  It is the grace of God that empowers us and strengthens us to obedience to God's Ten Commandments, but nowhere does it say that it is grace itself that is written in the heart. 

The Seventh-Day Sabbath is a sign for God's people. Not just the Jews, as unequivocally demonstrated in Isaiah 56. God started with the Jews simply because He had to start somewhere, but it was God's plan for all nations to be grafted into the House of Israel.  ALL gentile nations would have been "accepted" into the covenant blessings of Israel, and when that happens, the signs and covenants of Israel become the signs and covenants of the Gentiles. This is plain and irrefutable logic.

The Law of God is to be written in our hearts, yet does this mean we do not keep them physically?

What did Paul mean when he said the following?

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10)

Again Paul utters the following:

"What shall we say then? [is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." (Romans 7:7)

Allow me to ask you the question me again.

Where did Paul quote the commandment "Thou shalt not covet"?

Did he quote it from the words of Jesus?

Or did he quote it from the Old Testament, particularly the Ten Commandments where it is first found?

From which?

I want a straight answer.

Religion & Theology / Re: Sabbath Keeping Churches
« on: February 14, 2012, 02:04:11 PM »
Just remember Saved,

It's not complicated.  Not complicated at all.

Everybody knows that God expects us to keep the Ten Commandments.  It's a basic "fundamental" in Christian beliefs.

Luther, Wesley, Calvin, Spurgeon, and virtually every reformer taught that the Ten Commandments are binding on New Testament Christians.

The problem is, they are just a bit more inconsistent.  They say that while we are supposed to keep 9 of them both physically and spiritually, only the 4th one, the Sabbath one, we are to keep only spiritually in spiritual rest in Jesus, yet they neglect the physical celebration of it.  That makes no sense at all.  Either that, or they say that "somehow", the seventh-day transferred to Sunday.  Well, most Christians today can see just how ridiculous that is, so they prefer to resort to the "spiritual rest" argument rather than get pinned in a corner about the day changing from Saturday to Sunday--exactly what the Man of Sin, the Papacy did.  They changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.  So many Christians today are now feeling more "comfortable" with the "every-day is the Sabbath and spiritual rest in Jesus" argument.

A true Christian is consistent.

They keep all 10 both spiritually and physically. Not one spiritually only, and the other 9 spiritually and physically.

It's not complicated.

We like to KISS it.  It's called "keep it simple stupid". :)

We believe that the physical celebration on the Sabbath day is a SYMBOL (like Baptism) of our eternal rest in Christ Jesus. :)

Religion & Theology / Re: Sabbath Keeping Churches
« on: February 14, 2012, 02:01:41 PM »
Another false teacher.

LOL, you better watch out.  This forum is run by Sabbath-Keeping Christians. :P

Religion & Theology / Re: Sabbath Keeping Churches
« on: February 13, 2012, 09:35:47 PM »
sad :(

It won't be "sad" once the whole realizes that the Sabbath will be the final test of salvation for mankind.

Religion & Theology / Re: ROMANS Chapter 6 Verse 23
« on: October 07, 2011, 03:35:15 PM »
The Crusader,

Just a little advice: You have a strong tendency to build your theology on isolated texts without including the totality of the Bible. This is not how we establish sound doctrine.  Doctrine cannot be formed on the basis of single isolated texts.  Every text must be qualified by other texts in order to help us understand what that text means.

The gift of eternal life does not mean God just automatically lands this gift on you without you having to accept it.  But accepting it is a big package.  It requires not just an acceptance on par with a mere mental ascent to the truth, but a total transformation of your character. A mere mental ascent to the truth does not constitute righteousness.  If you have truly received that gift of eternal life, it will bear fruit, and a transformation in the character will be wrought.  This should not be too difficult to understand.

"Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14)

This scripture is plain, and qualifies Romans 6:23.  One cannot see the Lord if they do not practice sanctification.  And sanctification comes after justification. You cannot spell out your theology on a single text without allowing other texts to be modifiers and qualifiers. 

Correct doctrine is formed by employing precept upon precept, line up on line, here a little and there a little. (Isaiah 28:9-13).

We want to avoid what is called the "One Johnny Doctrine" syndrome. The meaning of this syndrome is as follows:

A mentally incompetent individual who's whole belief of theology stems from only one text in the Bible.  These type of people will attempt to "show boat" their own understanding of this one text in the form of questioning others about their understanding of the particular text or doctrine, and if the person being questioned by the johnny does not hold a position in agreement with him, the johnny will disregard any and all positions held by the other person as being false no matter what the position is, or how much truth is contained in it.   You will normally find One Doctrine Johnnies in religious blogs posted on the internet, or in religious "chat rooms".

Prophecy & End Time Events / Re: Partial Rapture
« on: October 01, 2011, 10:07:31 AM »
John Oscar,

Just a little word of advice.  While I am an Adventist, I whole-heartily agree with you and disagree with Rockroller.

Rockroller is a "strange, off-shoot breed" of Adventist.  He completely rejects the writings of Paul and Luke and much of Peter, and disqualifies them as part of scripture. 

Other Adventist brethren have labored with him in the ClubAdventist.com forum.  John317 has dealt with all his arguments, and to this day he has not been able to address our refutations.  I would not waste my time with him because you are arguing with one who completely dismisses virtually half of the New Testament as inspired.

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October 09, 2014, 02:15:06 PM
Religious Lie: "God only paid for sins until the next time you sin."
Forgiveness is available until we get to eternity and then our eternal fate is sealed. Right now, people are free to sin and repent; but there is no forgiveness of sin for the damned in hell.


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Lots of visitors..  easy to join,  easy to post...  come make some friends..  Play nice with others.

The Crusader

February 26, 2014, 04:30:18 PM
Religious Lie: "God only paid for sins until the next time you sin."

The Crusader

December 23, 2013, 09:38:53 AM
JUST A THINK ABOUT IT: Will you embrace the full meaning of Christmas? Jesus didn't die just so you could go to heaven. He came to give you life - His life; an abundant life free from guilt, condemnation, and slavery to both sins and religion. He came to bring a grace revolution to the world and tha

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