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Prophecy & End Time Events / Re: Partial Rapture
« on: April 03, 2012, 01:52:47 PM »
Overview of the Partial Rapture Theory

This view is in contrast to the previous views in that the question of the timing of the rapture is not the focus but rather the nature of the rapture.

Description of the Partial Rapture Theory

This view teaches that only those who are spiritual, who are prepared for the Lord’s return, will escape the terrors of the tribulation by being taken in the rapture.

RevJW/Bro.Chip [I don’t know what is always meant by “spiritual” by those who keep using the term at the same time pointing to me and others as teaching it, as I have never used that term. All believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The scripture however does tell us that as the Holy Spirit indwells us, we are in turn required to be continually walking in the Spirit. Not all believers are walking in the Spirit of God and leading “Christian” or “Christ like” lives but are living carnally as the scripture describes and teaches should not be done.]

Carnal Christians are raptured progressively during the tribulation as they become righteous and the tribulation period is a time for disciplining believers toward holy living.

RevJW/Bro.Chip [I have never taught this and the teaching does not appear in my book because it appears nowhere in scripture. Anyone who teaches this is in error. There will only be one Rapture of the Bride of Christ. All believers that are not ready for the Rapture at the time of the Rapture will miss the Rapture and enter into the great tribulation since they have severed themselves from the Bride due to their disobedience of the sin of adultery against their BrideGroom. Rev. 2:22. They will be joined inside the great tribulation as a group (the tribulation saints) by those that enter into the great tribulation lost, but surrender to the Lord through salvation after having discovered the truth. But this is inside the great tribulation period and will cost all of the aforementioned their lives at the hand of the powers that be, led and controlled by the anti-christ.]

RevJW/Bro.Chip [ (All of this is explained in my book, of which all of the detractors of the teachings have failed to read and are thereby speaking out of turn on most Partial Rapture points, or the Partial Rapture that I teach anyway. I might add there are several independent partial rapture teachings that are not in agreement with each other and to even a greater extent mine.) ]

History of the Partial Rapture Theory

The partial rapture theory originated with Robert Govett in 1835 in his book Entrance into the Kingdom: The Apocalypse Expounded by Scripture.

RevJW/Bro.Chip  [The Partial Rapture did NOT originate with Robert Govett. He may have surely independently rediscovered the teaching in The Word and therefore began its first modern popularization, but it was known and even documented to have been taught publicly in the second century. And since I (and others) found it in The Word it was taught in the first century.]

Later proponents of this view include J.A. Seiss, G.H. Pember, G.H. Lang, Ray Brubaker and the cult of the Local Church Movement (Witness Lee).

RevJW/Bro.Chip [This is true and these great men of God probably were influenced by Govett and others that came before them, however such facts prove nothing of the teachings origins, which is the scriptures themselves. For example, I found the teaching in The Word independent of any and all teachings by others outside the scripture and only became aware of others belief in the Partial Rapture upon my searching historical records for it. (When I discovered the teachings in scripture, that I was actually calling The Conditional Rapture at the time, were it to be true, I also understood that I could not have been the only one to recognize the teaching. Of which I later confirmed through a search of church history.)]

FROM MY BOOK, edited and paraphrased

Found in : The Shepherd of Hermes.

We will acknowledge first that much of what is recorded in these texts does not agree with the teachings of the scripture. That fact alone establishes the complete set of manuscripts of no doctrinal value. But, setting aside that detail for the moment in order to analyze the contents of these documents, we learn one of the records makes mention of a vision the “shepherd” had of a giant raging beast. This animal made an attempt to charge the shepherd presumably to cause him great harm. The shepherd however was able to escape by relying on God for protection.

The next vision he encounters is that of a beautiful maiden, identified by the shepherd himself as the Church. She in turn identifies the creature as an illustration of the Great Tribulation to come, and tells him he escaped it by putting his full trust in God. She then gives him the responsibility of informing all other believers they can do the same, but only if they too put their full trust in the Lord.

This is a very brief look and oversimplification of the content of those manuscripts. But since they have been accepted to have been written in the second century, it is concrete proof that the “concept” of the Rapture in general (as referring to an escape from a future time of Great Tribulation) and conditions connected to participating in that specific escape existed outside of Biblical text, but inside the body of the Church, to within approximately one hundred years of the physical death of Jesus Christ.

Even if the doctrine is in error, it was a belief of a portion of the membership of the Church, regardless of how few, documented to as early as the second century and there exists earlier evidence. You can honestly choose to believe and thereby continue to teach the doctrine to be in error, but you cannot deny that it was believed by a portion of the early Church. It existed, that is a fact.

(This is not the first time I have pointed this out and keep having to do so for those who continue to teach and profess this error.)

Analysis of the Partial Rapture Theory

The defense of this view is wrongly based on a few passages which refer to Israel during the tribulation period (Luke 21:36; Matthew 24:41-42; Matthew 25:1-13) and which are based on a
false distinction between believers (Hebrews 9:28).

RevJW/Bro.Chip [Luke 21:34-36 does not refer to Israel for one simple reason. This passage (spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ no less, to believers) speaks of an escape from (not out of) the great tribulation, a clear mention of the Pre-Trib Rapture. Israel cannot escape out of, much less from the great tribulation. The great tribulation (or seventieth week) exists for the sole purpose to finish the transgressions of Israel and make an end of their sins. Israel, as a nation, cannot in any fashion escape the great tribulation, so Luke 21:34-36, which is a warning to believers, lays down the conditions necessary to escape the great tribulation.]

The difficulties with this view are as follows:

• The rapture is never presented as a reward for godly living in the Scripture.

RevJW/Bro.Chip [First, the Rapture is not a reward for Godly living therefore would not be presented in the scripture as such. That is a misrepresentation by those who misinterpret the teachings of the Partial Rapture and point back to me as if that is what I teach. I do not. The Rapture is simply the event reserved by God (Jesus) for those believers who have not tied themselves to the world and the lust thereof but have kept their eyes, minds and hearts on the return of the Lord for his Bride.]

• The partial rapture view destroys the unity of the body of Christ.

RevJW/Bro.Chip [I have never understood this statement as a teaching. The “body of Christ,” if one is referring to the church, is in no unity whatsoever today physically, and is separated literally by death. Most believers that have lived in history are physically departed and separated from those of us who are still alive. Also, all believers who are still alive are separated by (in simple terms) denominations and doctrines, (exampled by the teaching of the Partial Rapture itself to mention only one). We are far from united in a number of beliefs. The Trinity, soul sleep, spiritual baptism, water baptism, baptism by sprinkling, the resurrection, none of these subjects and hundreds more are we in unity on.] 

• The partial rapture view destroys the imminent hope of the return of Christ for all believers.

RevJW/Bro.Chip [Nowhere in scripture is “imminence” taught, if in fact one is referring to an “at any moment” return. The only mention of the Lords return in scripture (multiple times to be sure) is that it will occur (it is indeed imminent, as in it is in our future and there is no stopping it) and we are to be ready when he does. The proof of this can be seen in that the scripture being written in the middle of the first century to the earliest years of the second could not make mention of an “at any moment” appearance of Jesus at that time since his return was impossible before 1947-48 and the fulfillment of the restoration of Israel as a nation in her homeland and the beginning of the re-gathering of the twelve tribes within her disputed boarders.]

• What happens to carnal Christians who died before the rapture?

RevJW/Bro.Chip [Quite simply, those believers who were not walking in The Spirit, or did not have their heart right with God (Jesus the BrideGroom) at the time of their death will not be included in the Rapture. (This would include regretfully most of my own departed family. I don’t often make mention of that unfortunate fact because it is a bitter pill to swallow however true.) They were definitely part of the church having been saved during their lifetime and have their eternal reward, but they are not a part of The Bride of Christ having not obeyed the voice of their BrideGroom.]

Galatians 5:16
16.    This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Colossians 2:8
8.    Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Ephesians 5:6-8
6.    Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 
7.    Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
8.    For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

RevJW/Bro.Chip [The scripture does confirm that the entire Church as a whole (baring no individual member) is espoused or engaged to Christ at this present time.]
2nd Corinthians 11:1-3
1.   Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.                                                                                             
2.   For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
RevJW/Bro.Chip [But most of the Church has corrupted itself from the simplicity that is in Christ by not keeping itself chaste. Paul, in the very next verse in fact, documented for us that this was his very fear.]

2nd Corinthians 11:3
3.   But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Luke 21:34-36
34.   And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.                                                           
35.   For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.                                                                                             
36.    Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

RevJW/Bro.Chip [I’m sorry that there are so many that disagree with the wording of these passages, especially Luke 21:34-36. Inside this passage we (not Israel) are warned not to be overcharged with the cares of this life, so that day come upon us unawares or taken by surprise. For as a snare shall it come upon all that live on the entire face of the earth (including Israel). Watch and pray, that (for the purpose of) you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, (the great tribulation of which he had just described in detail).
I’m sorry the wording offends so many, but that is what it says, and Israel cannot escape.

Prophecy & End Time Events / Re: Partial Rapture
« on: March 31, 2012, 08:06:00 AM »
I have of course seen all of this information before, and conversed with those at "Got Questions" of which declined to answer mine. The problem is, just as there are those that claim there is no evidence in scripture of a Rapture at all (of which there is ample) by those who refuse to study that evidence, this argument stems from the refusal to study the evidence of the partial rapture by those that are in denial of those teachings and its long history.

It is easy to pull scripture out of context, while at the same time ommiting any and all text that would contradict what one is teaching, thereby making what one is teaching appear valid to the unlearned, unstudied, uninformed or those simply in denial of the depth of the proof text.

About 75% of that can be found in the book,
The Partial Rapture "Theory" Explained / Escaping The Coming Storm

(The parable of the ten virgins is not mentioned in that book, and the remnant of the church that is left behind after the rapture will not see God's wrath.)

Prophecy & End Time Events / Re: Partial Rapture
« on: August 09, 2011, 06:57:41 PM »
When one reads Rev. 12:17 we see that God needs an 'army' who keep all of the commandments and obey all of the words (testimony) of Jesus.  These are the ones who are truly family member of God because they are the ONLY ones born again by the same woman as gave birth to Jesus, the Holy Spirit.

You do not take the army out of a world filled with evil in order to save it.  They are needed to testify to the real truth in order to show the world that what they have heard before is a lie.  The battle is not about bullets and bombs, but truth against lies.  Therefore, there will by NO rapture no matter what Paul said, because it is clear to me that Paul was a false apostle as found in Rev. 2:2.

You're applying passages to subjects that are not related. The proof of that is as follows...

If Paul was a false apostle, God allowed "almost" half of what we consider to be The New Testament of "The Holy Scripture" to be written by a false apostle.

Sorry. I don't think so.

And "THE ESCAPE" (of "all" these things, The Great Tribulation) is clearly documented and defined. If there is no "escape", Jesus would not have given us the teaching by making mention of that precise event. ( Luke 21:34-36 verse 36 )

Prophecy & End Time Events / Re: Will Islam rule the world?
« on: April 11, 2011, 06:20:38 AM »
I want my hour back!!!!  :o  ;D

Now there's a thought. Here, here.

I wish I could get all my "hours" back.

Since I ended up editing a lot of the information in my above post, you might want to re-read it.

In addition to the above, I thought you might find the following enlightening:

Dr. Henry Grattan Guinnes, D.D., F.R.A.S. (1835-1910) has often been called “England’s Greatest Teacher of Prophecy.”  Founder of the East London Institute for Home and Foreign Missions (1872), Dr. Guinnes was considered to be one of the three greatest preachers of his day, right along with Dwight L. Moody and Charles Haddon Spurgeon.  (Guinness was sometimes called “The Northern Spurgeon.”)  A deep student of prophecy, and especially of the antichrist topic, he commented over 100 years ago:

“Observe the place occupied by the man of sin—the “temple” or house of God.  This is not, and cannot be, any Jewish temple.  Paul, who uses this express in his prophetic portrait…employs it both in Corinthians and Ephesians with reference to the Christian Church… To Paul emphatically the temple of God was the Church of Christ. This is the temple in which his prophetic eye saw the man of sin seated.  It is no question of his bodily location in any structure of wood and stone, but of something far higher.  The temple of God is that “spiritual house” in which He dwells.  It is built of “living stones,” of true believers. It is in here that the man of sin was to usurp the place of God.  This is the “mystery,” the dread danger, the deadly evil, predicted by the Apostle.” – Henry Grattan Guiness, Romanism and the Reformation (1887) (Reprinted by Hartland Publications, Rapidan, VA:1995) 49.

Edward Bishop Elliott’s (1793-1775) classic, four-volume Horae Apocalypticae—A Commentary on the Apocalypse, was considered by Spurgeon, in his Comments on the Commentaries, to be “The standard work on the subject” of prophetic interpretation.   In his comments on 2 Thessalonians 2:4, E.B. Elliott agreed with Guinness:

“The impiety and pride of this Man of Sin were thus predicted;--that he would be pre-eminently an opposer to Christ and his Church;---that he would exalt himself above all that was called God, or an object of worship, i.e. above the gods many and lords many in the gentile heaven and earth, including the potentates and kings of this world;--that he would sit in God’s temple, (a phrase here meaning the Church) and actually there exhibit himself as God.” – Edward Bishop Elliott, Horae Apocalypticae—A Commentary on the Apocalypse, Vol. 3, Fifth Edition (1862) (Reprinted by Still Waters Revival Books, Edmonton, Canada) 97-99.

Wouldn't that make the pope the anti-christ? Accepted by the world as the supreme leader of the one world government? Then at the same time, imply that there will be no final Jewish temple built in Jerusalem (of which all plans are presently complete, and ready at the present  time to be employed when the opportunity presents itself.)

That would be a good point except for the fact the sacrifices are to the God of Israel. Of which the anti-christ in his arrogance can not allow, him proclaiming himself as the one to be worshiped, and Israel rejecting him as such. For such, he begins to persecute Israel, (beyond anything they have experienced to date) thereby rendering them incapable of continuing the sacrificial system.

And, (the persecution beyond anything they have experienced) would from your perspective been at that time, according to Jesus in all three records of the Olivet Discourse. That would negate any and all conflicts (including the Jews) until the present not being as great as what was locally experienced by the nation of Israel at that time.

The period of time between the crucifixion and 70 AD did not effect the whole of the world (only the known world), and that, only by what was held by the Romans. As I understand it, the time spoken of by Jesus in the gospels and recorded by John in Revelation, will effect every single living person on the face of the planet.

My only concern in this particular post was with the reference to "cessation", or stop. It didn't... "stop" I mean. I understand with any furtherance of its continuation it was non-productive, (or unacceptable to God, with the sacrifice of Jesus being completed), but the sacrifices did not cease, as the passage itself refers to.

There will be 1000 years of peace during the thousand year reign of Christ. I always wondered who would live and reign with him during this time-period, so I was reading Revelation (just now) and I unexpectedly found the answer in Revelation 20:4:

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God[/u], and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years[/u]. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

...I [John] saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years...

It appears that those who are dead or already killed will live and reign with Christ during the 1000 year millennium. How do you read this scripture?

Thoughts?  :o

The individuals that will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years, are believers who lost their lives during the first half of the great tribulation. (The "souls" under the altar of Revelation chapter 6, who are seen resurrected in Revelation chapter 7.) They came out of "great tribulation" (the first half; by the way, making the whole of the tribulation, great tribulation by Jesus' discription) according to the elders explanation to John.

That's what I was confused about, due to the wording, and discovered the same explanation to another on another message board. The passage says "caused the sacrifice to cease", which did not physically occure. What is meant is that it caused the sacrifice to be (however one wishes to put it) of none effective (which is mentioned by another passage of scripture, and is correct as it agrees.). But every believer should believe that. Jesus was the sacrifice that the system portrayed. But the system did not cease until many years later (certainly not within the "week" mentioned in the passage from your perspective and beliefs). That would suggest that the event in question, (the actual cessation of the sacrifice mentioned, "within" its own said week) would be still future.

Otherwise the passage is incorrect, and that can't be.

Hi RevJWWhiteJr!  Welcome to my thread. :)

Thank you.

"The week" was between 27 A.D. and 34 A.D.

Please document for me, (concisely) within that week, when the sacrifices and other inclusions ceased.

Yes, well, be that as it may, thank you for a lengthy (and largely) repeat of the information, (without direct comment or even rebuttal of my own) but I think I explained within your explanations the misunderstandings that non-Trinitarians have and can not see. Setting aside your problem with the 1John passage, I saw God as triune before anyone taught me the "concept". The scripture speaks of all three individually. Jesus speaks of all three individually. Therefore, THE WORD speaks of all three individually.

God - 1. Father 2. Holy Spirit 3. Son
Man - 3. body 2. spirit 1. soul

At Jesus' baptism, all three are represented, as well as present. All the passages you "site" can be easily shown to be misrepresented, as your explanations do not agree with the whole of scripture.

At the stoning of Stephen,

Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, (The omnipresent Spirit emanating from The Father) and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Stephen, full of the Holy Ghost, (The Holy Spirit) “saw” Jesus “standing” (the event had gotten Jesus’ attention, as his usual poster in heaven is seated at the right hand of God) on the right hand of God (The Father.)

The Father on the throne, Jesus “at” his right hand, (seated or standing) and The Holy Ghost (The Spirit of God) indwelling believers. And all three are one, because there is only one God, just as there is only one of each of us, body/spirit/soul.

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, (1. the body) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; (2. the spirit) and man became a living soul. (3. the soul)

We can not fully comprehend this concept in its entirety, but we can understand it if we will accept The Word as written.

And one doesn't have to believe in the trinity to be saved, or to be included in the Rapture. But is does make the rest of God's plan clearer to his creation.

It sure makes the walk we take through this life that much more peaceful, knowing whom it is that accompanies us through the journey.

I have a few questions.

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

When was "the week"?

Why is the Doctrine of the Trinity False ?

First of all, please note who the "us" is in Gen.1:26 and in 11:7.  It does not have any relationship to an imagined triune Godhead.

The scripture doesn't "say" who the us is in Genesis, it demonstrates who us is by speaking of himself in the plural, three times. God and man, repeatively. (I showed that above.)

In the second place, a review of Mt.28:19: "...in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Each one has a name, title, or whatever one wishes to distinguish them as. But mentions all three, individually.)  According to Jn.4:24 and 2 Cor.3:17-18, God is the Spirit. (Yes, God is Spirit and God is a Spirit, and God is The Spirit, just as God is Jesus and Jesus is God manifested in the flesh.)  According to Lev.11:44-45 and 1 Pet.1:15-16, He is Holy. (Yes, God is Holy.)  According to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35, He is the Father of Jesus. (Yes, God The Father is the father of Jesus.)

The term father is the very same title all men receive when they produce children of their own, as the Father did of Jesus, and is nothing more than His title and by no mens equates into one of the three personages claimed by trinitatrians.

I showed in Genesis where that we (man-[kind]) were established by God through the first creation. Male (1) and Female (2), be fruitful and multiply (3) ).

1. What is God? He is Spirit, according to Jesus, in Jn.4:24 and Paul, in 2 Cor.3:17-18. (Yes, God is Spirit.) That no one has ever seen Him and that He is invisible, are found in Jn.1:18; Col.1:15 and in 1 Jn.4:12. (Yes, no one has seen God at any time. Scripture also says that Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father. But nowhere in scripture is it said that anyone has seen God, just the Father, if you have seen Jesus. Then, the Spirit was seen descending from heaven like a dove. But no one has Seen GOD, [in his fullness?])

2. God, who is Spirit (Who is also The Spirit) according to the Scriptures, is also Holy, (Okay, who is also The "Holy" Spirit) according to Lev.11:44-45 and 1 Pet.1:15-16. Therefore, God is the Holy Spirit according to the Scriptures! (Yes, God is The Holy Spirit. Or, more accurately, The Holy Spirit is God.)

3. There was only one God throughout the entire OT according to Isa.43:10 and 44:6. (Yes, there is "still" only one God. One God in the Old Testament, the gospels, Paul's letters, and the Church Age, the tribulation, The Millennium, and forever and ever, throughout all eternity.) That rules out the Son being co-eternal with God, the Holy Spirit. (Excuse me?, that rules out no such thing. There is a "co-eternal-ality" to point out in the scripture you site below.) Though the time of his presence is addressed below. Confirming Isa:7:14.

4. The origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus, who did not become the Son, until in Mt.1:20 What ?? (Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his "son’s" name, if thou canst tell? GOD HAD A SON, before Matt 1:20. Jehovah.)

Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the Wisdom of God, I refer specifically to the following portion of it in verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus Christ, the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].

Okay, as I understand it, you say "Jesus" did not exist before his birth as the son of God, until his incarnatation in the physical. According to you, there was only one, total, "The Spirit".

I believe that Jesus existed as Jehovah before his physical birth, aside "The Spirit", both distinct from, but a part of The Father. So, from your perspective, before creation, how and why is there a plurality of more than one. The Spirit speaking of the "he" who is creating, just as the New Testament records, The Word was with God, and The Word was God, BOTH, and without him nothing was made that was made.

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, (Who brought whom forth, if there was only one?) before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, (Given birth by whom, if there was only one?) [Vs 22-24]

when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, (Again, given birth by whom, if there was only one?) before "He" made the earth (Who is the speaker, (The Spirit), pointing to?) or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]

I was there when He (Two, before the incarnation.) set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]

when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]

rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. (Only God can make claim to that.) Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33]

Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. (Pointing to another, a third?) But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36]

That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3
"The Lord (1) brought me (2) forth as the first of His (3) works, before His deed of old; (This stament demands a plurality, Pre-Creation.) I was appointed (By whom?) from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. (Jesus/Jehovah created the world. Who was with him?) When there were no oceans, I was given birth, ("Given" birth, by whom?) [Vs 22-24] NIV

when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He (Who is the speaker [The Spirit] referring to?) made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world." [Vs 24-26]

Confirmed in Col.1:15: "He is the image (Yes, the IMAGE [physicality] of God. Just as man was made in the image of God in his fullness, body/spirit/soul.) of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." (Over all creation, Pre-creation.) As well as in Gen.1:26, 11:7; Jn.1:1-2 and 17:5.

5. In vs 30 of the Pr.8 text is the following: NIV
"when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. (Who is the "I" at the side of "HE", the creator?) I was filled with delight day after day," [Vs 29-30]
Confirmed in Jn.1:1-3 and Col.1:16-18.

6. The Holy Spirit, who is the One and Only God [Isa.43:10 and 44:6], not only stated He was the Father of Israel , in Dt.32:6, but also prophecied He was going to be the Father of a Son, in: 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Which was fulfilled in Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and 2:7. Therefore, there is no option to the Scriptural fact: (No option?) God, the Holy Spirit was/is the Father of Jesus Christ. And gave a body to the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus. Confirming Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5.

7. The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus then became the incarnate Son of God in Lk.1:32, and received His name, Jesus, in Lk.1:35. Literally, God the Son, fulfilling the prophecy of the Holy Spirit, in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. Empowered to give/baptise with the Holy Spirit, according to Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33. To perform 36 miracles, of raising some from the dead, healing people with terminal illnesses as well as the blind and the deaf. Which no normal human being could ever do.

8. The term Father, given to God, the Holy Spirit, is nothing more than the very same title all men have who produce children of their own! It does not constitute making him a second person of the very same person, any more than making God, the Holy Spirit and the Father, two separate "persons." Which is the reason why Mt.28:19 is bogus, because it was obviously altered by a clever scribe obsessed with his belief in the doctrine of the Trinity. However, 1 Jn.5:7 was a a late add on, around the 11th or 12th centuries that never appeared on the earlier, more reliable mss.

Again, I showed in Genesis where that we [man-kind] were established by God through the first creation, Male (1) and Female (2), be fruitful and multiply (3), in the mirror "image" of God, Father/Holy Spirit/Son - mankind - body/spirit/soul).


Have we forgotten about the baptism of Jesus? Did you miss that?

"Born again." "Reborn." "Born of the Spirit." "Child of God." "Born of God."

Jesus and the writers of the New Testament equated the salvation experience as a rebirth, or the spiritual birth.

(In the physical) once conceived, what process (in the physical) is capable of changing who ones biological parents are?

Is there a connection? THINK ABOUT IT !!

The epitome of logical foolishness, is the insistence that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit make up the doctrine of the Trinity!  When the term Father is nothing more than God's title, whom the Scriptures clearly reveal to be the Holy Spirit. Father is the title every man receives after he has produced children of his own[Jn.4:24; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Lev.11:44-45; 1 Pet.1:15-16; Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35].  Which at that point alone reduces your triune God to two, rather than three.
Quasar  [/I]

Foolishness indeed.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God (elohiym, in the plural) created the heaven and the earth.

26 And God said, Let us (1) make man in our (2) image, after our (3) likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image (1), in the image of God created he him (2); male and female created he them (3). 28 And God blessed them (1 & 2), and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, (3) and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 

And how did he do this?

Genesis 2: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, (In the physical - 1) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; (A spirit - 2 - duplicating in man the essence of himself) and man became a living soul. (3. Emerging from within, a third person, to co-exist with the spirit given by God.)

1. The physical body of man, fasioned by the hand of Jehovah himself, in the image of the physicality of God.
2. Given a spirit, that mirrors the Spirit of God, with which man can communicate with God through the Spirit.
3. The union of which brought forth the essence of man, the soul, that mirrors the Father in the very image of God himself.

Just as man is body, spirit, and soul in reverse image of the God that created him. So is the image of God - Father, Holy Spirit, and Son. All passages of the Scripture that site, make mention of, or teach of God and his "being" or person, must be interpreted in a manner so to agree with "The Image" that we are given with the record of the creation of man himself, in the image of the creator. I deny none of the passages you site, I deny your limited understanding and interpretation of them.

I have no choice but to accept the "image" of God, as it is portrayed in the scripture, such as at the baptism of Jesus himself. The Father speaking from heaven, the Spirit sent from heaven descending like a dove, and lighting upon Jesus wholly wet, standing in the river Jordan. Sorry, I count three. The fact that they are all one can be seen in our own person, as we ourselves are body, spirit, and soul, created in the very mirror image of God.

Matthew 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mark 1:10-11
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:  11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

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me again

October 09, 2014, 02:15:06 PM
Religious Lie: "God only paid for sins until the next time you sin."
Forgiveness is available until we get to eternity and then our eternal fate is sealed. Right now, people are free to sin and repent; but there is no forgiveness of sin for the damned in hell.


October 05, 2014, 10:24:53 AM
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The Crusader

February 26, 2014, 04:30:18 PM
Religious Lie: "God only paid for sins until the next time you sin."

The Crusader

December 23, 2013, 09:38:53 AM
JUST A THINK ABOUT IT: Will you embrace the full meaning of Christmas? Jesus didn't die just so you could go to heaven. He came to give you life - His life; an abundant life free from guilt, condemnation, and slavery to both sins and religion. He came to bring a grace revolution to the world and tha

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