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Padre2

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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2004, 01:09:17 PM »
Positional and progressive santification refer to the idea that upon our conversion, we are positionally holy before the Lord but that we must grow in this holiness.  It is an "already-not-yet" concept.

Padre

Doma

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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2004, 09:54:12 PM »
Well, I am sure he believed that, as do I, but its much more than that when referring to the salvation of the soul.

Padre2

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« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2004, 05:32:24 PM »
Interesting.  I will have to check it out.

By the way, not all believe in positional and progressive sanctification.  In times past, the Church of God held to a positional view only.  And the Assemblies of God held to a progressive view only.  This has (is) changing somewhat but is still a matter of debate theologically.

Padre

Doma

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« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2004, 11:50:37 PM »
the spirit is saved instantly, here on earth as well as positionally in heaven, it's the soul that is different.

Donny Short

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« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2004, 12:09:28 AM »
How about scripture to validate that? i have studied it and can not for the life of me justify it.

Padre2

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« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2004, 11:39:11 AM »
Doma,

Quote
How about scripture to validate that? i have studied it and can not for the life of me justify it.


I agree.  Could you give us some scripture?

Padre

Doma

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« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2004, 12:55:37 AM »
sorry was away for awhile, I wrote a page on it, or read the books on the subject I listed, loaded with scripture:

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/soul.html

The Salvation of the Soul
... verses the Salvation of the Spirit

Man is a triune being. We were made in the image of God. God is triune and so is man. Angels and demons are spirits, I do not believe they have souls, but am unsure. Animals are dualistic, they are soul and body. Plants have body only. To see more about the Triune God:

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/jesus.html

1 Thess 5: MKJV
23 ¶ And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blamelessly at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The word "soul" in the greek is "psuche", this is where we get the english word psychic. It is often translated: heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

The word "spirit" in the greek is "pneuma", this is where we get pneumatic tool (a tool powered by air). It is often translated: ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind.  

When Adam sinned, he died spiritually. God had told Adam:

Gen 2: MKJV
17 but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

When Adam at from the tree, did he die physically (in the body)? No. Did his soul die? No, in fact his soul increased:

Gen 3: MKJV
22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil...

Therefore, Adam died spiritually. God communicates thru the spirit, and when Adam died spiritually, God didn't "see" him.

Prov 20 KJ21
27  The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of his being.

Gen 3: MKJV
9 ¶ And the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, Where are you?

Because Adam sinned, all mankind fell into sin with Adam:

Rom 5: LITV  
12 Because of this, even as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, inasmuch as all sinned.  

1 Cor 15: YLTV  
15:22 for even as in Adam all die...

Now every person is born into sin, spiritually dead:

Psalm 51: MKJV
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 58: MKJV
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from the womb...

Eph 2: MKJV
3 among whom we also ... were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

When a person accepts Jesus, and the work He has done for them, thru His death, burial, and resurrection, they become spiritually saved. They gain eternal life and heaven. When this occurs, the Holy Spirit seals them:

Eph 1: NKJV
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

This salvation is not by any work of the believer, it is a gift of God, thru Jesus. We need only to accept it.

Eph 2: LITV  
8 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;  
9 not of works, that not anyone should boast;  

Titus 3: MKJV  
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Once your spirit is saved, you can still see that your body has yet to be transformed into a new indestructible body. This I what I call the salvation of the body. This occurs at the rapture:

1 Cor 15: MKJV  
35 But someone will say, How are the dead raised up, and with what body do they come?  
36 Foolish one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.  
37 And what you sow, you do not sow the body that is going to be, but a bare grain (perhaps of wheat or of some of the rest).  
38 And God gives it a body as it has pleased Him, and to each of the seeds its own body.  
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is truly different, and that of the earthly different;  
42 So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;  
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;  
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.  

1 John 3:2 MKJV  
Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.  

To learn how to prepare yourself to be raptured (not every christian gets to go the 1st trip):

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/prepare.html

We can also see that our soul still is caught in sin after we are saved. The Bible tells us, that when we are saved, our sin nature is unemployed:

Rom 6: ALT
6  knowing this, that our former person was crucified together [with Him], so that the body of sin shall be made useless [or, pass away], [so that] we [are] no longer to be serving as a slave to sin.

Rom 6: LITV
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified, so that we no longer serve sin.

The work of the Cross has stopped sin in our spirit, but it is not eliminated from our being. Although, we are no longer slaves to sin:

Rom 6: MKJV
17 ... you were the slaves of sin, but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
18 Then being made free from sin, you became the slaves of righteousness.
19 ... for as you have yielded your members as slaves to uncleanness, and to lawless act unto lawless act, even so now yield your members as slaves to righteousness unto holiness.

Your spirit is no longer in bondage to sin, you now have a choice. Choice is your free will, that part which is in your soul. After being saved, you still can choose sin, and can still feels it's temptation. This is all in the soul.

But there is good news. You can save your soul !

Heb 10: NKJV
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Philp 2:12 NKJV  
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;  

James 1:21 MKJV  
Therefore putting aside all filthiness and overflowing of evil, receive in meekness the implanted Word, which is able to save your souls.

Doma

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continued
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2004, 12:56:27 AM »
As you can see, scripture tells the christian, that his soul can be saved. Since this is written to christians, we know they are already spiritually saved. The salvation of the soul is progressive. It takes work, read Phil 2:12 again. Obviously, Philippians 2:12 is not discussing the salvation of the spirit, because we see in scripture that is not by works.

We can also see what it is, that saves the soul in James 1:21. It is by receiving with meekness the implanted word. The Bible say's faith comes by hearing the Word of God:

Rom 10: NKJV
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.  

In the very same chapter, it say's God's Word is in your heart and in your mouth:

Rom 10: MKJV
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart"; that is, the word of faith which we proclaim;

How did it get there? The Word of God isn't just written scriptures in a book, but the scriptures become the Word of God in the person. Jesus is called the word of God:

John 1:
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Rev 19: MKJV
11 And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.
13 ... and His name is called The Word of God.

I fully believe Jesus is the Word of God because He is God, and that the Father created the Universe thru Christ. But I also believe Jesus is the Word of God, because He submitted to the Father in all things.

When we are saved, the Holy Spirit enters us. This enables us to understand scripture:

1 Cor 2: MKJV
10 But God has revealed them to us by His Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of God.
12 But we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit from God, so that we might know the things that are freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The Holy Spirit opens our eyes to scripture, but more than that, because Jesus is the Word of God, and because He lives in the believer, the Word of God is found in us.

Often times, the believer will be sparked with life and truth by hearing or reading scripture, or when a minister or fellow believer speaks something spiritual. This is the implanted Word operating in the believer from James 1:21

James 1:21 MKJV  
Therefore putting aside all filthiness and overflowing of evil, receive in meekness the implanted Word, which is able to save your souls.  

The work of Philp 2:12 is doing what James says in 1:21, that we need to receive with meekness the engrafted Word. Receiving with meekness, is cooperating with the work of God in your life.

Phil 1: MKJV
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ,

God began the work in you by saving your spirit. He then implanted His Word into you to guide you to the salvation of your soul. But we must cooperate in this, "receive in meekness" & "work out your own salvation".

Receiving the Word and work of God will renew your soul. It will cleanse it:

Eph 5: MKJV
25 ... as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it,
26 that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word,

2 Cor 4: MKJV
16 For this cause we do not faint; but though our outward man perishes, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

When God tries to correct us, guide our actions, sometimes we tend to "faint", think we won't make it. But 2 Cor 4:16, tells us not to, even when we see our body isn't saved yet. But our inward man, our soul, is being renewed every day. This is not our spirit, because our spirit is completely saved. Jesus and the cross have done their work. Now we need to let that work renew our soul.

Rom 12: NKJV
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.  

We must not follow after the world, but renew our mind, which is part of our soul, so that we can know and do God's will.

Titus 3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This verse shows us 2 parts of salvation. First the regeneration of our spirit, thus we know it is not renewed day by day, because it is regenerated. Then, God works in us by renewing thru the Holy Spirit. The regeneration is a COMPLETED work, the renewing is a CONTINUED work.

The Old Testament prophesied of this new covenant:

Ezek 36: MKJV
25 ¶ And I will sprinkle clean waters on you, and you shall be clean. I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from your idols.
26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you. And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them .

Getting your soul saved, is not going to be easy on the soul. The soul is the mind, the will, and the emotions. The soul will rise up and say, "I want...", but we know in our spirit what is selfish and what is sin. But God grants us the power to overcome, we must not faint.

Gal 6: MKJV
9 But we should not lose heart in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not faint.

It won't be too difficult because we have the Holy Spirit:

Math 11: MKJV
29 Take My yoke on you and learn of Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you shall find rest to your souls.
30 For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.

Nonetheless, it is a work to be done. Jesus spoke about saving the soul:

Math 16: NKJV
25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.  
26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?  

The word life in 25 is "psuche" in the greek which better translates as soul, as in verse 26. Look at this verse:

Luke 9: MKJV
23 And He said to all, If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

While the word "himself" is not the same word "psuche". The same thought applies here, we must deny our soul.

Some may say, "Oh, my salvation is guaranteed. I don't need to deny myself." True, your spirit will be saved and go to heaven, but unless you get your soul saved before arriving there, God will break your soul. so Jesus gives us this choice:

Math 21: MKJV
44 And he who falls on this Stone shall be broken, but on whomever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

You have a choice, to either willing break your own soul, or let Christ smash it to tiny bits. There will come a strong judgment of fire upon the unfaithful believer. Not a fire into hell, but they shall be saved:

1 Cor 3: LITV
15 If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire.

I discuss in great detail, this judgment of the unfaithful believer here:

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/judge1.html

Offline The Crusader

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« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2005, 01:21:47 PM »
Quote from: Doma
I recommend any books by these 2 authors:

Randy Shankle
Watchman Nee

But Watchman Nee has alot of books, so I don't want folks to get lost in his volumes...

so I recommend these 1st:

The Normal Christian Life
The Salvation of the Soul


I read a lot of Watchman Nee books many, many years ago. My Favorite was The Normal Christian Life.
"...to make all men see"(Ephesians 3:9)

We don't change God's message -- His message changes us.

Offline The Crusader

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« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2005, 01:35:01 PM »
Quote from: Donny Short
I love good books but I hate to read, so the first paragraph has to catch me. If the first few lines of a book don't get me I will put it away and not touch it.

My list includes.

All the works of E.M. Bounds.

All the works of Leonard Ravenhill especially Why Revival Tarries this book will put you on your knees.

Set The Trumpet To Thy Mouth and Americas Last Call by David Wilkerson.

For the serious Bible Studennt here is a list of books Leonard Ravenhill called required reading for the minister.

1. Atonement - Albert Barnes (1860 exposition) *
2. Autobiography of Richard Baxter
3. Azusa Street - Frank Bartleman
4. Better Things From Above - Gregory Mantle
5. Beyond Humiliation: Way of the Cross - Gregory Mantle
6. Bible Characters From the Bible - Alexander Whyte
7. Broken Bread - John Follette
8. Christian in Complete Armour - William Gurnall
9. Counterfeit Christ & Other Sermons -Gregory Mantle
10. Deeper Experiences of Famous Christians - James G. Lawson
11. Explore the Book (6 volumes in 1) - J.S. Baxter
12. Fair Sunshine - Jock Purves
13. Heart Talks on Holiness - Samuel Logan Brengle
14. Helps to Holiness - Samuel Logan Brengle
15. Hidden Life of Prayer - David MacIntyre
16. Historical Collections of Accounts of Revival - John Gillies
17. In the Footprints of the Lamb - G. Steinberger
18. Into His Presence (formerly titled: Practical Prayer Portions)
19. Invasion of Wales by the Spirit Through Evan Roberts - James A. Stewart
20. Knowing God - James I. Packer
21. Knowledge of the Holy - A. W. Tozer
22. Life of David Brainerd - Jonathan Edwards
23. Life of God in the Soul of Man - Henry Scougal
24. Looking Unto Jesus - Isaac Ambrose
25. Martyrs Mirror - T. S. vanBraght
26. Mighty Prevailing Prayer - Wesley Duewel
27. Milestone Papers: Doctrinal, Ethical...on Christian Progress - Daniel Steele
28. New Testament Holiness - Thomas Cook  
29. Path of Prayer - Samuel Chadwick (great teacher)
30. Protestant Saints - Ernest Gordon
31. Refiner's Fire - Leonard Ravenhill (2 volumes)
32. Reformed Pastor - Richard Baxter
33. Samuel Morris - Lindley Baldwin (GREAT BIOGRAPHY)
34. Soul of Prayer - P. T. Forsyth
35. The Stundists - (Persecution of Believers in Russia) -C.A.W.  *
36. "Take Your Glory, Lord" - William Duma
37. They Knew Their God - E. & L. Harvey
38. Way to Pentecost - Samuel Chadwick
39. Works of E. M. Bounds (8 volumes in 1 book)
40. Works of Edward Payson - (3 volumes) (know as "Praying Payson of Portland"
41. Worldly Saints: Puritans As They Really Were - Leland Ryken


Its been over 20 years since I read Why Revival Tarries
by Leonard Ravenhill.

The Trumpet To Thy Mouth by David Wilkerson.

Knowing God - James I. Packer

Knowledge of the Holy - A. W. Tozer

And some E. M. Bounds books.


I really enjoyed them when I was a Babe in the Lord

I burned most of them a few years later.
"...to make all men see"(Ephesians 3:9)

We don't change God's message -- His message changes us.

Offline The Crusader

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« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2005, 01:40:05 PM »
Quote from: Doma
Watchman Nee's book "The Salvation of the Soul" goes into how the soul must be saved separately from the spirit. The spirit is saved instantaneously thru faith, but the soul is saved progressively.

To see my page on the subject go here:

http://www.kingdom-gospel.com/soul.html

-------------------------

Kenneth Hagin has a 2 mini books discussing the different parts of humanity:Body Soul & spirit, called:

Man on Three Dimensions
Vol 1. of the Spirit, Soul, and Body series

The Human Spirit
Vol 2. Vol 1. of the Spirit, Soul, and Body series

And Randy Shankle's book

Releasing the Spirit
or
The Merismos

same book published in different name

also discusses indepth the difference between the soul and the spirit and goes into detail on how the soul is saved.

I went to Randy's church for 4 years and his school for 2 years, there is 1 major error in the book but otherwise it's great.

His error?

He says christians no longer have the sin nature. But Randy's own favorite author discusses this problem and answers it correctly. That is Watchman Nee.

Nee correctly concludes using the principle Randy calls "After it's Kind" principle that if christians do not have sin nature then they would beget offspring in the same fashion.

-----------------------

3 excellent sources (4 if you use mine) on the difference between spirit and soul!


I met Kenneth Hagin, back in the mid-80's I read all of his little booklets and had a lot of his tapes. I burned them all in 1990.
"...to make all men see"(Ephesians 3:9)

We don't change God's message -- His message changes us.

Doma

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« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2005, 11:28:38 AM »
Kenneth Hagin is a mixed blessing. I believe like Luther he was an apostle of restoration. Luther brought us the Foundational principle of Repentance from Dead Works, Hagin brought the Foundational Principle Faith Towards God.

But Hagin practicly admits he had not walked in God's perfec will. He speaks that God had 3 phases for his ministry, and read that he was only in phase 2. he also contends that he knows the Bible is very short on ordaining women but did it anyway knowing God would forgive him.

I understand why some folks don't like him, one cannot throw out the baby with the bath water tho.

peh

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« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2005, 12:12:08 PM »
Quote from: The Crusader  I burned most of them a few years later.[/QUOTE

 

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