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Author Topic: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?  (Read 8285 times)

Offline me again

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Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« on: December 23, 2006, 01:17:05 PM »
God repeatedly said to Moses "I will harden Pharoh's heart."
  • First, the Lord said He would provide miracles for Pharoh to see to prove to Pharoh that Moses' message was from God.  Miracles included turning a wooden staff into a snake and putting plagues on Egypt (lice, flies, frogs and turning drinking water into blood).
    .
  • Yet the Lord repeatedly said that He would harden Pharoh's heart, miracle after miracle, so that He could prove to the Jews that He alone is God.
Is God the ultimate puppet master of Pharoh's heart?  :D And of ours??? :what:  Please allow me to make my case:
    God manipulated Pharoh's heart so that He could prove to His people that He is ultimately in charge.
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  • Jesus knew that Judas Iscariot was damned from the begining.  Judas never had a chance at salvation.  In fact, that's why the psalmist was able to prophecy about Judas Iscariot before Judas was even born.
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  • Jesus said that no one can come to Him, unless the Father draws them.  Not everyone is drawn to Jesus.  Only the elect are drawn to Jesus.  Who are the elect?  The elect are the chosen of God -- chosen by God Himself.
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  • Jesus said to His disciples that He chose them -- and not the other way around.  The disciples did not choose Jesus.
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  • The bible says that many [all] are called, but few [the elect] are chosen.
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  • Jesus said that some of the Pharasees were "of their father the devil."  There is no hope for them and our heavenly Father did not choose them because they are not elect because they are the devil's children. LOL
    .
  • There are only two kinds of people in this earth: sheep and goats.  Period.  In the end of the age, they will be seperated.  Both of them have good works, but only the good works of the sheep are recoginized by Jesus, while the good works of the goats are not recoginized.  This is significant!!!!  Why???  Because:
       (a) the goats expect their good works to be recoginized as worthy of them to enter heaven and
    .
    (b) the goats expect their good works to be proof of their "right" to enter heaven.
    However, the Lord tells the goats to "depart ye workers of iniquity." Well, what's the difference between the iniquity (sins) of the goats and the iniquity (sins) of the sheep???  Answer: the sins of the sheep are forever washed away, while the sins of the goats are not because the goats are relying on some of their own works to be evidence of their right to enter the kingdom of heaven!!!! Only God can make you holy!!! :eek:
Hallelujah!!! :preach:

You are putty in the Maker's Hands!!!!
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2006, 01:33:33 PM »
Another Calvinist/Arminian discussion???   :rolleyes:

We are supposed to be celebrating peace on earth, goodwill toward men...and you bring this up?   :lol:
John O


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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2006, 01:38:08 PM »
Hey Hey Hey :snicker:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Zaph

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2006, 10:51:48 AM »
God is only a puppet master if you're a Calvinist.

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2006, 10:58:27 AM »
Quote from: Zaph;38103
God is only a puppet master if you're a Calvinist.
Ah haaaaa!!!!! Do I have a nibble??? :snicker: :lol:

Choose the best answer:
  • a) Judas Iscariot was damned from the foundation of the world.
  • b) Judas Iscariot was destined to betray the Lord Jesus Christ from the foundation of the world.
  • c) Judas Iscariot had a chance to be saved.
  • d) Both answers a and b :snicker:
Calvinism at its finest! :smart:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2006, 05:38:58 PM »
Quote from: me again;38104
Calvinism at its finest!


Yep, charging God with sin and removing man's responsibility for it.  :brew:

After all, if we are just puppets with our strings being pulled by a malevolent God, then it's not our fault what we do.... it's his fault.

Furthermore, it reduces the God of the universe to a Roman or Greek "god" who just amuses himself in playing evil tricks on it's creation.

(I've been sitting here telling myself, "Don't do it...don't get involved in it again"   Can't help myself)  :brew:
John O


Offline Tom

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2006, 05:52:32 PM »
Calvinism does not charge God with sin. The non-elect, unredeemed still bear full responsibility for their sin.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2006, 05:53:57 PM »
I understand Calvinism teaches that, but there is a logical and ethical disconnect with that theology....you can't have it both ways.  

I believe God is absolutely sovereign, just as you do.  I also believe (and this is the main disconnect most Calvinist's have) is that when He gave Adam free will and stewardship over Eden/earth, He effectively limited Himself by His own Word.  

Just as God can not just forgive sin, as that would be breaking His Word "That the soul that sins must die", He cannot break His word and take away man's free will....

I also don't believe Adam's sin caught God by surprise, but was pre-known to Him.  That's why Revelations says that the Lamb of God was crucified from the beginning of the world!  It's all part of His plan....

(You may not know it, but that there is some good preaching)  :preach:
John O


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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2006, 08:23:21 PM »
Quote from: Tom;38109
Calvinism does not charge God with sin. The non-elect, unredeemed still bear full responsibility for their sin.
Mannnnnnn you are smart.  :smart: I had NO answer for John Oscar.  Thank goodness you're here. :smack: :snicker:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2006, 08:25:30 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38110
I understand Calvinism teaches that, but there is a logical and ethical disconnect with that theology....you can't have it both ways.  

I believe God is absolutely sovereign, just as you do.  I also believe (and this is the main disconnect most Calvinist's have) is that when He gave Adam free will and stewardship over Eden/earth, He effectively limited Himself by His own Word.  

Just as God can not just forgive sin, as that would be breaking His Word "That the soul that sins must die", He cannot break His word and take away man's free will....

I also don't believe Adam's sin caught God by surprise, but was pre-known to Him.  That's why Revelations says that the Lamb of God was crucified from the beginning of the world!  It's all part of His plan....

(You may not know it, but that there is some good preaching)  :preach:
Hummm, I gotta chew on that.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Tom

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2006, 09:22:09 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38110
Just as God can not just forgive sin, as that would be breaking His Word "That the soul that sins must die", He cannot break His word and take away man's free will....



John,

Please show me where Scripture states that God gave man free will.


Free Will is a movie about a killer whale in a Mexican swimming pool.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2006, 09:58:53 PM »
Let's deal with the statement that you think God doesn't give man free will-

Would not that make God respondsible for man's sin if man has no free will?

Would we put someone in prison who was forced to drive through a crowd with a gun to her head?  No, she was not respondsible, the guy holding the gun on her was.

If I tell you as a LEO that God ordained me to speed through your radar stop, what will your response be?  You can't blame me...I have no free will.  God made me do it.

Let's open the prisons... We are imprisoning people that did what God ordained them to (making us resisters of God!)....or wait, did God ordain them to murder, steal, rape, ect...and then God ordained they get caught and locked up...  this is getting complicated.....

The idea that man has no free will is ludicrous!  Did God ordain Adam and Eve to sin?  No, but He knew that they would, and provided the way for them to still have fellowship with Him...

That's the essence of John 3:16!
John O


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Did you choose God or did He choose you?
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2006, 07:31:18 AM »
Have you ever considered that His majesty left nothing to chance and that nothing is happenstance?  It is all wonderfully orchestrated by Him in his perfect plan, from beginning to end.  He who created the universe  will ensure that every  i is dotted and every t is crossed.  It is NOTHING to Him.  It is parlance.  

IMO we underestimate Him when we don't understand that He "knew it all" from the beginning of time, to include knowing who the sheep are and who the goats are.  John 3:16 is addressed exclusively to the sheep -- the goats are not eligible to enter heaven.  Goats have never been eligible and they never will be eligible and it is ordained that way from the foundation of the world.  Again, many hear the calling (the world) but few are chosen (the sheep).  

In the end, His majesty will be abundantly clear and we will all thank Him for it.  It will seem so simple at that time.  Right now, while we see the depths of sin and the carnage all around us, it is easy to think or believe that the goats have a shot or a chance at salvation -- but they don't.  Only the chosen will be saved.  Many are called, but God alone chooses.  

There is no free will involved.  Just as you had no choice in who your parents were, so we have no choice who our spiritual father is.  Those whose father is the devil are forever damned, while the children of God almighty are chosen by Him to be with Him for all eternity.  

There, I said it!!! :amen2:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Tom

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2006, 08:28:24 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38115
Let's deal with the statement that you think God doesn't give man free will-



Let's not.

Provide the Scripture that states that God gave man free will. The question isn't what you think the ramifications are of man not having free will.

The fact is man is totally depraved. His will in his unregenerate state is totally in bondage to sin.

[/BOLD]Romans 3:10-18 as it is written:
None is righteous,no not one;
no one understands,;
no one seeks for God.

All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good not even one.

Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.
The venom of asps is under their lips.
Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.

Their feet are swift to shed blood;
   in their paths are ruin and misery
and the way of peace they have not known.
There is no fear of God before their eyes.
[BOLD/]

I don't know about you but I don't see any parties excluded from the "None or No one" category.

Until  the Holy Spirit of God comes into a man and first reveals the existence of God man can not even see or identify the true God.[BOLD]EXODUS 4:11 Then the Lord said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?"[/BOLD]
Secondly, until the Holy Spirit reveals a mans sin he is not even aware that he is a sinner. (This would be the reason we see the bumper stickers which state "Born OK the first time.")
Thirdly, until the Holy Spirit comes in and changes a man from his natural, God hating "heart of stone" into a God loving "heart of flesh" he is totally in bondage to his sinful nature. He is not only incapable of choosing God and the things of God but he has no desire whatsoever to do so, the unregenerate hate God and the things of God, by nature.  

Even after the elect have been born again it becomes even more apparent that God has set the path we are to walk and the boundaries of our lives.

It is also apparent in the lives of the unregenerate because the lost do his bidding as well. Sometimes by acts of charity or kindness and sometimes being the tools of destruction.

He controls everything to the smallest degree.


Never forget that God said,

[BOLD]Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make well being and create calamity, I am the Lord who does all these things.[/BOLD]

True faith doesn't state, " It's a fallen world and this [insert tragedy here] isn't God's will but he will see me through.

True faith states, " It's a fallen world but God is in control. I hate what has happened. It is painful and I don't understand why he has brought this to pass but I trust him and I know that his will is best and he will eventually work it for good."
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline Tom

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Re: Did you choose God or did He choose you?
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2006, 08:38:57 AM »
Quote from: me again;38116
Have you ever considered that His majesty left nothing to chance and that nothing is happenstance?  It is all wonderfully orchestrated by Him in his perfect plan, from beginning to end.  He who created the universe  will ensure that every  i is dotted and every t is crossed.  It is NOTHING to Him.  It is parlance.  

IMO we underestimate Him when we don't understand that He "knew it all" from the beginning of time, to include knowing who the sheep are and who the goats are.  John 3:16 is addressed exclusively to the sheep -- the goats are not eligible to enter heaven.  Goats have never been eligible and they never will be eligible and it is ordained that way from the foundation of the world.  Again, many hear the calling (the world) but few are chosen (the sheep).  

In the end, His majesty will be abundantly clear and we will all thank Him for it.  It will seem so simple at that time.  Right now, while we see the depths of sin and the carnage all around us, it is easy to think or believe that the goats have a shot or a chance at salvation -- but they don't.  Only the chosen will be saved.  Many are called, but God alone chooses.  

There is no free will involved.  Just as you had no choice in who your parents were, so we have no choice who our spiritual father is.  Those whose father is the devil are forever damned, while the children of God almighty are chosen by Him to be with Him for all eternity.  

There, I said it!!! :amen2:



Exactly, and this isn't based upon his foreknowldege it is based upon his will.

Ephesians 1: 4-5 even as he chose us in him before the foundaion of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

 

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