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Author Topic: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?  (Read 8287 times)

Offline me again

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Re: Did you choose God or did He choose you?
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2006, 10:16:31 AM »
Quote from: Tom;38118
Exactly, and this isn't based upon his foreknowldege it is based upon his will.

Ephesians 1: 4-5 even as he chose us in him before the foundaion of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ according to the purpose of his will.
I guess that some people want to believe that they have the power to "choose their way into the kingdom of heaven," but that's simply not true.  If we could could "choose our way into heaven," then a lot of people would be going.  But the fact of the matter is that only the elect are given the ability to choose God -- and that only occurs because He chose them.  God will never choose the children of the devil and they are hopeless.  Yes folks, you read it here first.  :eek:

 If you go to heaven, it's not because you choose to, but instead, it's because the Lord chose you.  This seems to be a concept that many people cannot accept because they continue to cling to "their" ability to enter the kingdom of heaven, but their ability is complete insufficient, to include their own will.  God alone chooses who will enter His kingdom, which demonstrates that God alone is sovern.  :eek:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Tom

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Re: Did you choose God or did He choose you?
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2006, 10:22:59 AM »
Quote from: me again;38119
I guess that some people want to believe that they have the power to "choose their way into the kingdom of heaven," but that's simply not true.  If we could could "choose our way into heaven," then a lot of people would be going.  But the fact of the matter is that only the elect are given the ability to choose God -- and that only occurs because He chose them.  God will never choose the children of the devil and they are hopeless.  Yes folks, you read it here first.  :eek:

 If you go to heaven, it's not because you choose to, but instead, it's because the Lord chose you.  This seems to be a concept that many people cannot accept because they continue to cling to "their" ability to enter the kingdom of heaven, but their ability is complete insufficient, to include their own will.  God alone chooses who will enter His kingdom, which demonstrates that God alone is sovern.  :eek:




Amen! Perfectly articulated.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2006, 10:35:20 AM »
Okay....Here is the scripture:

First, we are created in the image of God (who has free will)

Gen 1:26-27
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
NIV


Satan acknoweleged man's free will:

Gen 3:5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Let's stop there just for a second....

If Eve is a robot without a will of her own...is she then respondsible for eating the fruit?   :think:

Throughout the major and minor prophets, God repeatedly calls people back to Him.  Here is a classic example:

Isa 1:18-20

18 "Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel,you will be devoured by the sword."
 For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.
NIV


Hmm...that indicates they had a choice.....

Even the Shema has strong evidence of choice:

Deut 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.   5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
NIV


Again....why would God order us to love Him if He is pulling the strings to make us do it anyway?  If we are programmed to love God..is that actual love?  That's like making my computer say, "I love you John" 24/7.  The computer has no choice, therefore it's "love" is empty.

Further scriptures:

Deut 11:13-17

13 So if you faithfully obey the commands I am giving you today — to love the LORD your God and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul —  14 then I will send rain on your land in its season, both autumn and spring rains, so that you may gather in your grain, new wine and oil. 15 I will provide grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will eat and be satisfied.


(if we obey?  wait a second.....isn't He going to make us disobey or obey anyway?)

16 Be careful, or you will be enticed to turn away and worship other gods and bow down to them. 17 Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce, and you will soon perish from the good land the LORD is giving you.
NIV


Why do we have to "be careful" if we have no free will?  That's a sadistic "god" that would tell you to be careful and then force you to do it anyway.  

God repeats this choice again in the same chapter-

Deut 11:22

22 If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow — to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways and to hold fast to him


And the death stroke (in this chapter) to the hard determinism that Calvin teaches:

Deut 11:26-28
26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse —  27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today; 28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.
NIV


What about this one?

Deut 30:19-20

19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
NIV


Why would God Almighty Himself tell them to choose if they have no choice?  If they have no choice, then (and I say this for the purpose of arguement only), then god is lying here.

If it's neccessary, I'll continue to post dozens of scriptures (I'm not even out of the Pentetauch yet) regarding man's free will and/or his ability to choose...
John O


Offline John Oscar

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Re: Did you choose God or did He choose you?
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2006, 10:47:23 AM »
Quote from: me again;38116
 John 3:16 is addressed exclusively to the sheep -- the goats are not eligible to enter heaven.  


No it's not.

John 3:16-17

16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
NIV

Read it without plugging Calvin's interpretation into it.  It's plain as day.

Jesus, being God, could have ended this debate right here if He would have just said, "For God so loved the elect, He gave His one and only Son, that whoever the Father forces or enables to believe will not perish, but have everlasting life."

He didn't say that....Jesus said, "the world", and I know He meant it.  He also said that whoever believes....indicates choice....
John O


Offline Tom

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2006, 11:02:27 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38121
Okay....Here is the scripture:

First, we are created in the image of God (who has free will)


God is also omnipresent. Does this mean I am everywhere all at once? Let's see. I just tried to give you a wedgie. Did it work? No, darn I guess that argument is up in smoke.

Quote

Satan acknoweleged man's free will:

Gen 3:5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."


Knowledge does not equate in the ability to choose. I know that gravity holds my feet to the earth. I do not have the ability to choose not to be affected by it.
Quote

Let's stop there just for a second....

If Eve is a robot without a will of her own...is she then respondsible for eating the fruit?   :think:


First, nobody said Eve was a robot. Secondly, yes, she is responsible. Why you ask? Because God said so.


Quote

Throughout the major and minor prophets, God repeatedly calls people back to Him.  Here is a classic example:

Isa 1:18-20

18 "Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD.
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel,you will be devoured by the sword."
 For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.
NIV


Hmm...that indicates they had a choice.....

Even the Shema has strong evidence of choice:

Deut 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.   5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
NIV


Again....why would God order us to love Him if He is pulling the strings to make us do it anyway?  If we are programmed to love God..is that actual love?  That's like making my computer say, "I love you John" 24/7.  The computer has no choice, therefore it's "love" is empty.

Further scriptures:

Deut 11:13-17

13 So if you faithfully obey the commands I am giving you today — to love the LORD your God and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul —  14 then I will send rain on your land in its season, both autumn and spring rains, so that you may gather in your grain, new wine and oil. 15 I will provide grass in the fields for your cattle, and you will eat and be satisfied.


(if we obey?  wait a second.....isn't He going to make us disobey or obey anyway?)

16 Be careful, or you will be enticed to turn away and worship other gods and bow down to them. 17 Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce, and you will soon perish from the good land the LORD is giving you.
NIV


Why do we have to "be careful" if we have no free will?  That's a sadistic "god" that would tell you to be careful and then force you to do it anyway.  

God repeats this choice again in the same chapter-

Deut 11:22

22 If you carefully observe all these commands I am giving you to follow — to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways and to hold fast to him


And the death stroke (in this chapter) to the hard determinism that Calvin teaches:

Deut 11:26-28
26 See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse —  27 the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today; 28 the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known.
NIV


What about this one?

Deut 30:19-20

19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
NIV


Why would God Almighty Himself tell them to choose if they have no choice?  If they have no choice, then (and I say this for the purpose of arguement only), then god is lying here.

If it's neccessary, I'll continue to post dozens of scriptures (I'm not even out of the Pentetauch yet) regarding man's free will and/or his ability to choose...



Throughout the entirety of Scripture God calls people to him, however, not everyone is capable of responding to that call. In fact, Jesus stated he taught in parables so that those who are not of the Kingdom would not understand, turn and be saved. Scripture also states that God sends strong delusions so that some would believe a lie and be damned.

Everyone has the choice, but only the elect can choose God because you must be enabled to do so. As Ed so eloquently stated, only the children of God can do so, just as we were chosen before the foundation of the world, so they have been damned.

It's his sand box he can do it anyway he wants.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2006, 11:43:26 AM »
So....

You are ignoring scriptural evidence and reading instead your (Calvin's) interpretation?

You wouldn't debate on the philosophical points (even though Me Again started with a largely philosophical argument), and asked for scripture.  

Scripture is provided, and I'll offer more if you want, and you don't debate that either, but just quote the party line (it's God's sandbox.....)
John O


Offline Tom

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2006, 01:56:01 PM »
No, John the point is you have failed to produce any evidence and continue to spout the loose and misapplied interpretations of scripture that Arminianism is based on which are the foundation of the faulty doctrine of the denominations which teach such.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2006, 03:19:16 PM »
Actually Tom, we are right back where this conversation always ends- you and other Calvinist's refusing to see the plain truth of scripture because it doesn't fit your theology.  You are thinking the same thing of me....

This is why I'm hesitant to even get involved in this discussion, because it always ends here- me frustrated and wondering why you can't see the truth, and you thinking the same thing of me....
John O


Offline Tom

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2006, 07:38:36 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38126
Actually Tom, we are right back where this conversation always ends- you and other Calvinist's refusing to see the plain truth of scripture because it doesn't fit your theology.  You are thinking the same thing of me....

This is why I'm hesitant to even get involved in this discussion, because it always ends here- me frustrated and wondering why you can't see the truth, and you thinking the same thing of me....



Yep, that's true.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline Tom

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2006, 07:39:01 PM »
I blame Ed for bringing it up again.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline me again

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2006, 07:55:19 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38126
Actually Tom, we are right back where this conversation always ends- you and other Calvinist's refusing to see the plain truth of scripture because it doesn't fit your theology.  You are thinking the same thing of me....

This is why I'm hesitant to even get involved in this discussion, because it always ends here- me frustrated and wondering why you can't see the truth, and you thinking the same thing of me....
If you could choose your way into heaven, then salvation becomes dependant on two variables:
1) First, the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
2) Second, the will of someone to believe in Jesus.

But #2 (above) is heresy because the only thing that can save a man is the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for His sheep -- and He knows who His sheep are e.g. my sheep hear my voice.  If a man's "will" could get him into heaven, then this scripture would be false: "for strait is the gate and narrow is the way [to salvation] and few there be that find it."  The bottom line: We are 100% dependant upon the mercy of God.  Not 99%, but 100%, to include giving Him the glory for saving us.  The credit for our salvation cannot be given to our "will."  

There are some people who say that if God is 100% sovern, to include the fact that He alone chooses who will enter His kingdom, then the blame for sin must be placed on Him.  But if that is His will, then those who would cast dispersion on Him by insinuating that He is responsible for sin -- are guilty of heresy.  Anyone who would insinuate that the sovernty of God is in any way responsible for the sin in the world is committing heresy -- even if they don't know it.  

God alone is sovern and He made the rules.  Anyone who casts dispersion on Him, simply because they disagree with his 100% sovernity (to include His will on who is saved and who is damned) is living in heresy. He alone is responsible for who gets saved -- and He proved it to His sheep by sacrificing His son on the cross (for the sheep).  The rest are damned.  :what:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2006, 09:00:07 PM »
Quote from: me again;38131

 We are 100% dependant upon the mercy of God.  Not 99%, but 100%, to include giving Him the glory for saving us.  The credit for our salvation cannot be given to our "will."  


What Calvinist's don't understand is that Arminius is 100% in agreement with this- only by the impowering of the Holy Spirit can an unregenerant man choose Christ.
John O


Offline me again

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2006, 06:09:52 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38132
Quote from: me again;38131

 We are 100% dependant upon the mercy of God.  Not 99%, but 100%, to include giving Him the glory for saving us.  The credit for our salvation cannot be given to our "will."  
What Calvinist's don't understand is that Arminius is 100% in agreement with this- only by the impowering of the Holy Spirit can an unregenerant man choose Christ.
Do you believe that all have the ability to be empowered with the Holy Spirit, to include:
  • The devils children?
  • The elect?
I am of the opinion that being filled with the Holy Spirit is reserved for the elect. :smart:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2006, 08:34:10 AM »
The Holy Spirit came upon a donkey and made it speak and He came upon King Saul and he prophesied.

Zech 4:6b  'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty.


So yes, I do believe that the Spirit can touch unregenerate man and make him/her able to receive the gospel.  This prevenient grace can, however, be resisted.

As Tom so eloquently stated (paraphrased), it's His perogative to do what he wants.
John O


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Re: Is God the ultimate puppet Master?
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2006, 10:30:01 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38136
The Holy Spirit came upon a donkey and made it speak and He came upon King Saul and he prophesied.

Zech 4:6b  'Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD Almighty.


So yes, I do believe that the Spirit can touch unregenerate man and make him/her able to receive the gospel.  This prevenient grace can, however, be resisted.

As Tom so eloquently stated (paraphrased), it's His perogative to do what he wants.
True... but the Holy Spirit coming upon an unsaved man or a donkey is vastly different than the eternal infilling of the Holy Ghost.  Would you agree that there is a difference?
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

 

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