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Author Topic: Calvinism  (Read 13576 times)

Offline me again

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Calvinism
« on: January 25, 2007, 12:31:31 PM »
This looks like a good thread topic:
Quote from: theophilus;38439
Methinks many people confuse Calvinism with Hypercalvinism based on their understanding of the sovereignty of God and their scriptural illiteracy.  Calvinism is clearly Biblical and the book I mentioned takes apart the TULIP acronym and puts all of the pieces in a context more easily understood.  An example is the "P" - under the acronym we get "perseverance of the Saints."  In context it speaks to the "preservation of the Saints", which scripture is replete with references to.

People don't like Calvinism because they think we all deserve a chance (it's the natural man's equation) instead of realizing that God can pretty much DO as He darn well pleases.  In opposition, the Saints come to realize the "blessing" of being chosen, by God, that results in an attitude of total commitment and total surrender.  God can do much with children like that.  That's why the gates of Hell will never prevail against the church.

An inability to surrender SELF results in rejection of Calvinism.

$00.02.

:D
Awesome read!!!  Thanks for sharing!!!
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2007, 12:36:18 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38444
I'm not scripturally ignorant or illiterate, and I reject Calvinism :orange:

I'm a few credits shy of my degree in theology... :D

Although...I do detect a certian amount of intellectual snobbery in those that support Calvinism (they pat you on the head and say someday you'll study yourself into Calvinism)
ROFLMBO :laughhard

You'll get it someday. :snicker: :smack:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

theophilus

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2007, 12:44:19 PM »
ma,

I knew you were going to get us into trouble.

:what:

:D

Let us go, then, you and I...

Offline Zaph

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2007, 01:33:40 PM »
Ugggghhhhhhh!!!!!   Doing my best not to bite my tongue too hard!!

I won't get sucked into this discussion again!!!

I won't get sucked into this discussion again!!!

I won't get sucked into this discussion again!!!

I won't get sucked into this discussion again!!!

I won't get sucked into this discussion again!!!

I won't get sucked into this discussion again!!!

I won't get sucked into this discussion again!!!

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2007, 02:21:31 PM »
Speaking of snobbery....

How come we have a forum on Calvinism, but not one on the true theology of Arminianism?  :brew:
John O


Offline Zaph

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2007, 02:43:20 PM »
That is odd I was thinking the same thing after I posted last time.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2007, 03:34:30 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38452
Speaking of snobbery....

How come we have a forum on Calvinism, but not one on the true theology of Arminianism?  :brew:
Mmmmmm good point. :smart:

The introductory Calvinism section reads as follows:
Quote
Calvinism & The Doctrines of Grace
Discuss TULIP, God's Sovereignty and Reformed Soteriology [Salvation belongs to the Lord (Ps. 3:8; Jonah 2:9)]
Exactly how would you like the new introductory (yet to be created) Arminianism forum to read? :nervous: :smack:
Quote
Arminianism & The Doctrines of a Works Based Salvation
Heretical Doctrines 101 :snicker:
Seriously, exactly how do you want it to be worded? :lol:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

cdhale

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2007, 09:23:17 PM »
Well, since any argumentation about Calvinism will necessarily include Arminianism as the "other side" it would only make sense to rename this particular forum as "Calvinism vs Arminianism" which would take care of the problem.

clint

theophilus

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2007, 09:43:40 PM »
Let's start here:

Eph. 2:2,3 - Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

By nature we are all sinners.

Romans 3:9-18 -  What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
 And the way of peace have they not known:
 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Sinners don't give a flip about God.

Romans 9:9-19 -  For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

  God positively or actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to insure their salvation.

Matt. 6:37-40 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Many are called, few are chosen.

Acts 11:18 - When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

God grants repentance leading to salvation.

2 Cor. 7:10 - For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

God grants the sorrow that works repentance.

Phil. 2:12,13 -  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God works in you.

2 Tim. 2:25,26 - In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;  And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

God gives repentance.

Heb. 12:16,17 - Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.  For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Esau didn't get repentance from God.

Matt. 19:25,26 -  When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

God chooses.



For me, the bottom line looks like this:  Israel is chosen, the rest of mankind is called.

That might explain why we're supposed to work it out with fear and trembling.

:D

Offline Tom

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2007, 09:55:28 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38452
Speaking of snobbery....

How come we have a forum on Calvinism, but not one on the true theology of Arminianism?  :brew:



Because they don't allow the proliferation of heresy on this site. :D
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline Tom

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2007, 09:59:08 PM »
Why did Jesus teach in parables?

PS Only scripturally stated reasons count.

Hint:
Read Mathew 13:10-11
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline Tom

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2007, 10:13:43 PM »
How about;

Arminianism: For those who weren't dead in their trespasses and sin, just real sick. The ones who are morally and intellectully up to the task of choosing Christ of their own free will because they are a cut above the lost.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline Tom

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2007, 10:19:42 PM »
If God wants everyone to be saved then why would he do this

2 Thessalonians, chapter 2 verse 11-12

": And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: in order that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Hint: When reading the Bible and you see the word everyone or all turn to the front of the book you are reading and see to whom it is addressed.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2007, 10:48:25 PM »
Okay, then why did God put this in the bible:

"For God so loved the world, He gave his one and only son...."

Calvinism's death verse...
John O


Offline John Oscar

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2007, 10:53:10 PM »
Tom,

To answer your question, read Romans 1

Rom 1:18-20

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
NIV


The intial choice to sin was theirs.  The continuing choice to sin was theirs.  You see a process that starts with ignoring God's existance and right to rule over the planet.  It continues to idolatry and "creating God in an image that suits them.  This would be equivelent to Universalism of today.  It continues to ignoring the obvious nature order and into homosexuality, and finally ends up with a slide into true evil.

I preached a sermon on this once....

Just like Pharoah, if you continue to resist God, He simply removes all redeeming influence, and "gives you over to a (really your) depraved mind"

Blessings
John O


 

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