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Author Topic: Calvinism  (Read 13587 times)

Offline Tom

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2007, 11:06:33 AM »
No one is implying that they are not responsible for their sin. What I am saying is that knowledge of the existence of God does not reveal the method of, or impart salvation. Only God can do that, and scripture states that not only does he not do it for everyone but he purposely and willfully takes steps to see to it some people don't stumble on it themselves. For example, sending strong delusions, speaking in parbales, hardening their hearts, etc..
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2007, 11:21:42 AM »
Quote from: Tom;38474
No one is implying that they are not responsible for their sin. What I am saying is that knowledge of the existence of God does not reveal the method of, or impart salvation. Only God can do that, and scripture states that not only does he not do it for everyone but he purposely and willfully takes steps to see to it some people don't stumble on it themselves. For example, sending strong delusions, speaking in parbales, hardening their hearts, etc..
And the reason He prevents some people from receiving salvation was spoken of by Jesus Himself:   [size=12]Lest[/size] at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted...[/b] Matt 13:15b[/color]God will not allow some people to see the mechanics of salvation, lest they should be saved; and the bible says that nothing unclean will enter the kingdom of heaven. For whatever reason, God sees them as unclean and He will not wash away their sins. :eek:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2007, 11:30:21 AM »
Let's look at the whole verse, instead of parsing out what we want the bible to say:

Matt 13:15
5 For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'  
NIV

Seems like they made a choice to harden their hearts, and even in that sin, if they repent, Jesus would heal them.

That's reading the scripture as written, not assigning our theology to it.
John O


Offline John Oscar

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2007, 11:33:51 AM »
Quote from: Tom;38474
No one is implying that they are not responsible for their sin.


Sure you are- that's one of Calvinism's flaws.  If God ordains all that was, is, and is to come, then they are not respondsible for their sin- God is.  He made them do it by ordaining it to be...
John O


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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2007, 01:01:01 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38476
Let's look at the whole verse, instead of parsing out what we want the bible to say:

Matt 13:15
5 For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'   NIV

Seems like they made a choice to harden their hearts, and even in that sin, if they repent, Jesus would heal them.

That's reading the scripture as written, not assigning our theology to it.
God said:   [size=10]I[/size] will harden his heart
Exodus 4:21bGod said that He would harden Pharoh's heart so that His will and His power could be demonstrated.  It is no different today.  We are putty in the Makers hands.  Nothing has changed.  :eek:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2007, 01:03:45 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38477
Sure you are- that's one of Calvinism's flaws.  If God ordains all that was, is, and is to come, then they are not respondsible for their sin- God is.  He made them do it by ordaining it to be...
So if God doesn't give them enlightenment, so that they can see and be saved, then God is at fault for preventing them from entering His kingdom?  Instead of using the term "at fault," I would use the term "wise arbitrator."  We worship and admire Him for:
1) selecting His sheep for entrance into His kingdom
2) barring everyone else from entering His kingdom.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2007, 03:06:00 PM »
You're trying to muddy the issue.  Let's stick to the point at hand-


If according to Calvinism, God ordains everything, then by definition He ordains sin.  If He is ordaining sin, mankind is without fault, and god (little g on purpose) is no longer holy.  If he is no longer holy, then Jesus is no longer holy, and the whole propitiation for our sins falls apart....
John O


Offline John Oscar

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2007, 03:09:59 PM »
Quote from: me again;38478
God said:   [size=10]I[/size] will harden his heart
Exodus 4:21bGod said that He would harden Pharoh's heart so that His will and His power could be demonstrated.  It is no different today.  We are putty in the Makers hands.  Nothing has changed.  :eek:


Again, you are pulling one verse out of it's context and trying to prove your point.  If you put that verse in it's context of Pharoah repeatedly repenting and turning back to his pride, then it's obvious that the Rom 1 arguement I put forth is the biblical example of the end of prideful rebellion against God.

Your way makes God no better then a Roman or Greek god that gets off on messing with his creation for his own sick pleasure.
John O


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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2007, 03:15:18 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38480
You're trying to muddy the issue.  Let's stick to the point at hand-

If according to Calvinism, God ordains everything, then by definition He ordains sin.  If He is ordaining sin, mankind is without fault, and god (little g on purpose) is no longer holy.  If he is no longer holy, then Jesus is no longer holy, and the whole propitiation for our sins falls apart....
Yes, I would agree that God ordains (allows) sin for a season, but eventually sin and all sinners will be cast into the Lake of Fire -- and then sin will be ended for all eternity.  However, by this reasoning, I don't believe that we can say that:
- He is no longer holy
- and Jesus is no longer holy
- and the whole propitation for our sins has fallen apart.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2007, 03:26:06 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38481
Quote from: me again;38478
God said:   [size=10]I[/size] will harden his heart
Exodus 4:21bGod said that He would harden Pharoh's heart so that His will and His power could be demonstrated.  It is no different today.  We are putty in the Makers hands.  Nothing has changed.  :eek:
Again, you are pulling one verse out of it's context and trying to prove your point.  If you put that verse in it's context of Pharoah repeatedly repenting and turning back to his pride, then it's obvious that the Rom 1 arguement I put forth is the biblical example of the end of prideful rebellion against God.
I do not think that Pharoh ever "repented" in the biblical sense of the word.  Instead, Pharoh "acquiesced" to the plagues that were cast down to the earth through the hand of Moses.  

Quote from: John Oscar;38481
Your way makes God no better then a Roman or Greek god that gets off on messing with his creation for his own sick pleasure.
Likening God to being no better than a Roman or Greek god is the argument that Arminianism typically employs.  However, anyone who would even suggest such a thing is engaging in heresy, even if it's unknowingly being done.

Our God is the God of the universe and the earth is his playground (or at least it was until the devil took it over).  All creatures, human or angelic, that state that God is unrighteous in what He has done (and is doing) will either be:
1) educated and will then repent
2) or if they don't repent, then they will be cast into the Lake of Fire

All of His sheep will glorify Him, regardless of what He has done (and is doing) because His ways are perfect. :amen2:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2007, 04:44:26 PM »
Let's clarify terms.

Ordain in the way Calvin meant it (from the KJV)

Hebrew:

OT:3245

yacad (yaw-sad'); a primitive root; to set (literally or figuratively); intensively, to found; reflexively, to sit down together, i.e. settle, consult:

KJV - appoint, take counsel, establish, (lay the, lay for a) found (-ation), instruct, lay, ordain, set, sure.

Greek:

NT:2525

kathistemi (kath-is'-tay-mee); from NT:2596 and NT:2476; to place down (permanently), i.e. (figuratively) to designate, constitute, convoy:

KJV - appoint, be, conduct, make, ordain, set. NT:2526 '.katholikos (kath-ol-ee-kos'); from NT:2527; universal:

There is no "allow" in ordain.  It is a willful act.  Therefore if god ordains sin, he is committing sin by doing so.

Simplely use the logic that God gave us.

Job 32:8  But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.
John O


Offline John Oscar

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2007, 04:46:46 PM »
Quote from: me again;38483
I do not think that Pharoh ever "repented" in the biblical sense of the word.  Instead, Pharoh "acquiesced" to the plagues that were cast down to the earth through the hand of Moses.  



That I would give you, but in the end, proves my point all the more!

Through willful disobedience to God and His prophet, Pharoah hardened his heart against God.  Therefore, as in the sequence of Romans 1, after a certian point, God does send a delusion, but it is after man's willfull choice to disobey.
John O


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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2007, 04:51:40 PM »
Based on your interpretation of the word "ordain," then yes, I believe that God ordained sin.  :nod:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2007, 04:58:18 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38486
Quote from: me again;38483
I do not think that Pharoh ever "repented" in the biblical sense of the word.  Instead, Pharoh "acquiesced" to the plagues that were cast down to the earth through the hand of Moses.  

That I would give you, but in the end, proves my point all the more!

Through willful disobedience to God and His prophet, Pharoah hardened his heart against God.  Therefore, as in the sequence of Romans 1, after a certian point, God does send a delusion, but it is after man's willfull choice to disobey.
Hummmm I really don't see how it proves your point all the more.  :ranger:

God repeated said to Moses that He would harden Pharoh heart so that He could prove to Moses that it is He who is delivering the Jews from Egypt.  The fact that the Lord says multiple times that he will harden Pharoh's heart is proof pudding that He manipulated the actions of the Pharoh.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2007, 05:04:00 PM »
It's not mine, but Calvin's.

Then you are the first Calvinist that has ever admitted that to me.  Take that logic to it's obvious end, examine it per the bible, and you'll see the fallacy of Calvin's TULIP.

If God ordains sin....what does that make God?


(a bad example, but useful- if Larry Flynt publishes a magazine in which men commit adultry by looking at it, what does that make Larry?)

I know the next response will most likely be something that sounds spiritual;  "God's ways are not our ways", or something like that.  That arguement does not hold water with the fact that God gave us 66 books that say- "Get to know me!"

He gave us a brain for a reason.  You have to see the logical disconnect of your theology!  For crying out loud, you have more degrees then I will ever have :)
John O


 

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