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Author Topic: Calvinism  (Read 13586 times)

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2007, 05:05:07 PM »
Quote from: me again;38490
Hummmm I really don't see how it proves your point all the more.  :ranger:

God repeated said to Moses that He would harden Pharoh heart so that He could prove to Moses that it is He who is delivering the Jews from Egypt.  The fact that the Lord says multiple times that he will harden Pharoh's heart is proof pudding that He manipulated the actions of the Pharoh.


Or proof pudding that He already knew from eternity past what Pharoah's actions would be...which is the Arminian idea of predestination.
John O


theophilus

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2007, 07:23:10 PM »
Guys,

I've got to go drop some kids off but I want to address your mindset of "God ordaining sin."  I have a little different "take" and will share it when I get back.  God is NOT the Author of sin.

I'll tell you why.

:D

Offline me again

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2007, 09:37:29 PM »
Quote from: theophilus;38501
Guys,

I've got to go drop some kids off but I want to address your mindset of "God ordaining sin."  I have a little different "take" and will share it when I get back.  God is NOT the Author of sin.

I'll tell you why.

:D
Maybe He knew that granting total freedom would result in sin, but he still created Satan, which eventually spawned the spread of sin to us? :noidea:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

theophilus

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2007, 12:43:55 PM »
And God hardened Pharaoh's heart...

Quote
How can God hold Pharaoh or anyone else accountable for sin that flows out of a heart that God Himself hardened?

The bible does not tell us EXPLICITLY but if we think about it, we realize that there are only two ways:  actively or passively.

Active hardening would involve God's direct intervention within the inner chamber's of Pharaoh's heart.  God would intrude and create fresh evil in it.  This would insure that Pharaoh would bring forth the result that God was looking for.  It would also insure that God was the author of sin.

Passive hardening is a totally different story.  It involves a divine judgment upon sin that is already present.  All that God needs to do to harden the heart of a person who is already desperately wicked is to "give him over to his sin."


Just stay with me...I need a brief "aside."

Matthew 5
 44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

I am going to call this act of parsing the same blessings to the "evil and the good" and "the just and the unjust" COMMON GRACE.  It is the grace of God that all men commonly enjoy.  The unjust and evil may not DESERVE this grace but they enjoy it anyway.

Quote
One of the most important elements of common grace we enjoy is the restraint of evil in the world.  That restraint flows from many sources.  Evil is restrained by policemen, laws, public opinion, balances of power and so on.  Though the world we live in is full of wickedness, it is not as wicked as it possibly could be.  God uses the means previously mentioned as well as other means to keep evil in check [the Holy Spirit comes to mind].  By His grace He controls and bridles the amount of evil in this world.  If evil were left totally unchecked, then life on this planet would be impossible.

All that God has to do to harden people's hearts is to remove the restraints.  He gives them a longer leash.  Rather than restricting their human freedom, He increases it.  He lets them have their own way.  In a sense, He gives them enough rope to hang themselves.  It is not that God puts his hand on them to create fresh evil in their hearts; He merely removes His holy hand of restraint from them and lets them do their own will.


Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Quote
Pharaoh was the most powerful man in the world when Moses went to see him.  About the only restraint on Pharaoh's wickedness was the holy arm of God.  All God had to do to harden Pharaoh further was to remove his arm.  The evil inclinations of Pharaoh did the rest.

In the act of passive hardening, God makes a decision to remove the restraints; the wicked part of the process is done by Pharaoh himself.  God does no violence [or evil] to Pharaoh's will, He merely gives Pharaoh MORE freedom.

We see the same kind of thing is Judas and with the men [and Satan] who afflicted Job.

To be sure, God uses the evil inclinations and the evil intentions of fallen men to bring about His own redemptive purposes.


~all quotes taken from Chosen By God:  Know God's Perfect Plan For His Glory And His Children, R. C. Sproul, Tyndale House, 1986.  ppg. 144-147.

God is not the author of sin.  He has given us Jesus, the Author of our salvation.

Somebody here owes God an apology.

theophilus

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2007, 12:46:50 PM »
And ma,

Satan was a perfect creation, just like Adam.  He, too, was able to choose "pride" and to choose to covet "worship."  (Adam chose to disobey.)

You shouldn't blame God for the evil choices His creations make.  He IS a Gentleman.

:D

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2007, 01:19:20 PM »
Quote from: theophilus;38511
And God hardened Pharaoh's heart...



Just stay with me...I need a brief "aside."

Matthew 5
 44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

I am going to call this act of parsing the same blessings to the "evil and the good" and "the just and the unjust" COMMON GRACE.  It is the grace of God that all men commonly enjoy.  The unjust and evil may not DESERVE this grace but they enjoy it anyway.



Absolute power corrupts absolutely.



~all quotes taken from Chosen By God:  Know God's Perfect Plan For His Glory And His Children, R. C. Sproul, Tyndale House, 1986.  ppg. 144-147.

God is not the author of sin.  He has given us Jesus, the Author of our salvation.

Somebody here owes God an apology.


Nope, you just proved my point by championing human freedom all the more.  Remember, I am quoting Calvin himself when I say that he states that God ordains all that was, is and is to come.  If that is true, then by definition, that includes sin.

By the way, your post agrees more closely with the Arminian point of view of divine soveriegnty then the Calvinist view.

I admire RC Sproul a great deal, and listen to him often.  Interestingly, most of the preachers I listen to are Calvinist...I just don't agree with them on that point.
John O


Offline John Oscar

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2007, 01:22:41 PM »
Quote from: theophilus;38512
And ma,

Satan was a perfect creation, just like Adam.  He, too, was able to choose "pride" and to choose to covet "worship."  (Adam chose to disobey.)

You shouldn't blame God for the evil choices His creations make.  He IS a Gentleman.

:D


I don't blame God, nor do I charge Him with sin (which is the worse blasphemy you could commit), Calvin does in his theology found in the Institutes of Religion.  If it sounds like I'm charging God with sin (I'm not), I'm only pointing out the logical and biblical inconsistancies with the TULIP theology.  

I think proponents of Calvinism don't think it all the way through (they would level the same charge at me)...

I place the whole blame of human sin on the sinner where it belongs, and the whole credit for salvation on the Godhead.  So does Arminus.
John O


theophilus

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2007, 01:31:45 PM »
Our "free will" is surrounded by God's "divine will."  His "divine will" includes His "permissive will."  It is His "permissive will" that allows us "free will."

Do we TRULY understand the liberty we have been given in Jesus Christ?

I think NOT.

:D

Offline me again

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2007, 01:33:57 PM »
Quote from: theophilus;38511
Somebody here owes God an apology.
Wow theophilus, that was an excellent analogy e.g. instead of creating sin, God simply allowes evil men (such as Pharoh, Judas Iscariot and the rest of the unsaved) to have MORE freedom-of-choice: consequently, they always choose evil because the restraint is loosened.  More freedom-of-choice for the sinner equals more evil on his part. :eek:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

theophilus

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2007, 01:56:33 PM »
Quote
they always choose evil because the restraint is loosened


They (we) always choose evil because it is our (unsaved) nature to do so.  All of us are children of wrath.  God just helps some of us to overcome that nature by giving us the faith to choose Jesus instead.

And He chooses who He will give that faith to.

:D

I just love it when a plan comes together.

:orange:

Offline me again

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2007, 02:01:06 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38515
Nope, you just proved my point by championing human freedom all the more.  Remember, I am quoting Calvin himself when I say that he states that God ordains all that was, is and is to come.  If that is true, then by definition, that includes sin.
theophilus did a wonderful job of explaining how God gives the sinner (such as Pharoh, Judas Iscariot and all the rest) MORE freedom and, consequently, they go deeper into sin.  Yes, that may be more along the lines of Arminianism (I'm not literate enough to know either way :noidea: ).  However, I would agree that God is all powerful and that He knew that sin would result from His creation, so by defination, yes, He is the author of sin.  Please don't accuse me of being a heretic. On the other hand, I think that God is smart enough to know exactly what He is doing and the end result will be a creationi that abhors sin (which is rebellion to God) and that will never return to sin because we have seen how destructive it is to go away from God (by engaging in sin) and, consquently, we will stay within the parameters that He has set forth for all eternity and sin will not be a temptation for us, nay, not in the least, after we receive our resurrected immortal bodies. :eek:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

theophilus

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2007, 02:08:27 PM »
John,

You need to go "pre-Calvin" and read Aquinas, Pelagius, Augustine and Arminius, etc..  Methinks one's opinion of "original sin" has much to do with whether one is a Calvinist or an Arminian.

Calvin didn't dream this up all by himself.

:D

Offline Tom

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2007, 04:24:41 PM »
I think it is a "half thunk thought." First of all, I do not charge God with sin because it is impossible for Him to sin. He is not subjet to the rules he makes for his creation.
Did God invent sin? I would argue yes, for two reasons. He invented the law and without the law there would be no sin. And, when he created the devil and he created the law and he created humans he knew what the end result would be. He also had the power to create them any way that he wanted. If God did not want sin to exist it would have a simple thing for him to create creatures that would not sin or to  bypass the giving of the law. However, then what would he have to save us from and what would the basis of the relationship be that we have with Him. He has insulated himself from the sin by creating perfect creatures and placing them in instances where he knew they would fail in order to bring about his plan. Perfection. And this does not charge God with sin because he is not subject to the same rules we are.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2007, 08:03:04 PM »
Could you provide a scriptural basis for that?  Or is it a philosophical opinion?

I only ask because you demand scripture in these cases.  If we are switching to philosophy, that's fine, but give me some warning :lol:
John O


Offline Tom

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2007, 09:25:22 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38526
Could you provide a scriptural basis for that?  Or is it a philosophical opinion?

I only ask because you demand scripture in these cases.  If we are switching to philosophy, that's fine, but give me some warning :lol:


Why yes, John I can. Unless you have gone down the slippery slope of Arminianism to its logical conclusion (2+2=5) and become an open theist I'm sure you would agree that God is Omniscient (all knowing) and Omnipotent(all powerful). If it is a problem I can provide scripture which will illustrate these attributes of God.


If we take these known attributes into account and we look at verses such as Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things were created through him and for him.

We can logically determine that:
If all things were created by him and for him and he is all knowing then he knew how they would wind up and since he is all powerful he could have made them any way he chose. Therefore he created everything (including creatures which would sin) according to his purpose and plan and that is the way he wanted it otherwise He most certainly could have done otherwise.

God addresses your problem with this at  Romans 9:19-20 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist His will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to it's molder,"Why have you made me like this?"
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

 

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