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Offline Tom

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2007, 08:15:06 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;38683
Tom,
I agree.  As does Arminius.  That is the doctrine of prevenient grace.  The Holy Spirit does the enabling.


Ahh, prevenient grace. The doctrine of the sick soul. If prevenient grace was to be effective you could only have been sick in your trespasses and sins and not dead. And, not totally depraved, just a little evil. Arminians just can't believe they were too wicked to play any part in their own salvation.

What exactly is it that a dead man is able to do?
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2007, 08:24:58 AM »
Tom,
That's your very poor understanding of this doctrine.  As DTCS said, it would benefit you to study the doctrine instead of what you've heard a Calvinist preacher say about it.

So, I'll provide the actual articles that Arminius and his followers wrote.

Here are articles three and four of the Articles of Remonstrance:

Article 3
That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of an by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.” [4]

[edit] Article 4
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can nei*ther think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. but respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible; inas*much as it is written con*cerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost. Acts 7, and else*where in many places. [5]


Those are the articles, without commentary.  BTW, I'll post Calvin's perspective direct from his Institutes of Religion, book 2, chapter 21 if you wish.  It will take several posts though, as Calvin is quite long winded.

I think it would have been interesting if these two theologians would have had a chance to meet and discuss the issues.  I'd love to be in that audience!
John O


Offline Tom

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2007, 08:41:58 AM »
Where we differ John, is on Irresistable Grace. Prevenient grace says that the Grace of God can be resisted. Perhaps by some, but never by the elect. If the description of the sinner listed in Arminius statement above is accurate then he needs more than a helping hand toward salvation.

Salvation is a  Monergistic effort.

Monergism: The view that the Holy Spirit is the only agent who effects regeneration of Christians. It is in contrast with synergism, the view that there is a cooperation between the divine and the human in the regeneration process. Monergism is a redemptive blessing purchased by Christ for those the Father has given Him (1 Pet 1:3, John 3:5,6, 6:37, 39). This grace works independently of any human cooperation and conveys that power into the fallen soul whereby the person who is to be saved is effectually enabled to respond to the gospel call (John 1:13; Acts 2:39, 13:48; Rom 9:16). It is that supernatural power of God alone whereby we are granted the spiritual ability to comply with the conditions of the covenant of grace; that is, to apprehend the Redeemer by a living faith, to come up to the terms of salvation, to repent of idols and to love God and the Mediator supremely

For more click here:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/monergism_short.html
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Throw-down

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2007, 01:41:30 AM »
Quote from: Tom;38667
It is my position that the whole world is under sin and it would be impossible for any man who has ever lived with the exception of Christ to live sinlessly. Scripture states all have sinned.
Sin exist because God wants it to exist.


Could you provide Scriptural support for your statement that it is impossible for a man to have victory over sin? I must not be clear on what you are trying to say since it appears that you contradict yourself when you said, "God has provided a way to deliver his elect from sin and does so by revealing "The Way" to his children, the elect." If God makes a way for us to be delivered from the power of sin, then He makes it possible to have victory over sin. Otherwise, no man can be delivered from sin's power and they remain under its control and power. It is true that all men who have lived on this earth are sinners, with the exception of Christ [God in humanity or human form].

 I am also unable to find Biblical support for the idea that God wants sin to exist. Can you provide it? Sin caused the death and suffering of Christ. God ordained the life that Christ lived on the Earth because of the results of sin and its power over all Mankind.  The Cross is the only avenue through which man has any hope for freedom from sin. Did the Father want and desire the suffering and death of His Son? If God wants sin to exist, then why did Christ come to this world and die for the sins of His children?

We are told, in Matthew 1:21, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.. If we can not be freed from the power of sin, what is the purpose of the Gospel? What is the purpose of God being born in human form? What is the purpose in Christ dying on the Cross for our sins? If we have no hope of there being the possibility of attaining victory over sin in our lives, we must then ignore the word of God when it states we should live our lives as our example Jesus Christ did while on this earth: For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:1 Peter 2:21 & 22.

In the last book of the Bible, Christ Himself repeatedly tells us that only those who overcome sin will be in His Kingdom: To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death....To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna,...he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power...He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God,...To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father...He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Exactly what is sin?  God says: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4. So the Word tells us that sin is breaking the Law of God, the Ten Commandments. If for example, I commit adultery, I violate the 7th. Commandment, have broken the Law of God and am guilty. I have sinned. God declares that the penalty (fine or punishment) for breaking His Law (sinning) is: the wages of sin is death; Romans 6:23.  Is it God's desire that I continue in adultery, in sin? What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Romans 6:1-2.

If we are true Christians, we love Christ above everything else. If are of the redeemed, we love Christ for the salvation He has given unto us who are totally undeserving of any mercy. If we truely love Him more than life itself, we will seek to please Him in all we do. If we love Him, we will obey Him: If ye love me, keep my commandments. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him John 14: 15 & 21. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 1 John 5:3-4.

Offline me again

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2007, 07:26:30 AM »
Quote from: Throw-down;38817
Could you provide Scriptural support for your statement that it is impossible for a man to have victory over sin? I must not be clear on what you are trying to say since it appears that you contradict yourself when you said, "God has provided a way to deliver his elect from sin and does so by revealing "The Way" to his children, the elect." If God makes a way for us to be delivered from the power of sin, then He makes it possible to have victory over sin. Otherwise, no man can be delivered from sin's power and they remain under its control and power. It is true that all men who have lived on this earth are sinners, with the exception of Christ [God in humanity or human form].
As I understand it, the flesh, in and of itself, cannot overcome a sinful nature.  Thus, in that context, it is impossible to have victory over sin.  However, in two other contexts, I think that we can have victory over sin:
  • First, if we are the elect, then when God sees us, He doesn't see our sinful flesh, but instead, he sees us covered with the mantle of Christ.  Thus, in God's eyes, we have victory of sin because of Christ.  But our sinful flesh is still exactly that: sinful; albeit, those sins are washed away.  It is a paradox that the devils children cannot understand until resurrection day. :eek:
.
  • The other context of victory over sin occures on resurrection day when our sinful mortal bodies are raised up into uncorruptable immortal bodies.
My .02 :snicker:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2007, 08:18:36 AM »
The bible teaches that we have the power to be victorious over sin.  Whether we use that power or not is the question.  I haven't seen a person yet (besides Christ) reach that point of Spirituality.  Even Paul lamented his sinful condition well into his ministry (Rom 7:14-8:1)

If anything, true Spirituality creates a heart within us that sees us for the utter and complete degenerates we are, and makes us beggars of grace.  It is the destruction of pride within us, and the creation of humility, which is the heart of God... :preach:
John O


Offline Tom

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2007, 09:34:36 AM »
John and Me Again answered your question well. God provides a way to deliver his elect from the condemnation of sin. As the others have stated no person alive other than Christ has ever reached a state of sinlessness. Our righteousness is an imputed righteousness. It is the righteousness of Christ that God imputes to us. It is imputed to us but not deserved or earned because we never physically become sinless, no matter how hard we try.
The Bible says All Have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. As we progress in our spiritual walk we may not sin the same sin we did when we were new believers. But rest assured we still sin.

ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THAT THEY DON'T SIN IS NOT SAVED. THE HOLY SPIRIT REVEALS SIN. IF YOUR SIN IS NOT BEING REVEALED TO YOU IT MEANS HE IS NOT TALKING TO YOU.

If you look at the Apostle Paul's description of himself through his epistles,
 his own estimation of himself becomes lower the longer he serves Christ. He went from the chief of apostles in his ealier writings to the chief of sinners in his later epistles.


God delivers from the condemnation of sin, this does not mean we reach sinlessness.

Paul writes in Romans, "Oh wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from this body of death?"
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Throw-down

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2007, 06:32:24 AM »
Tom said:
Quote
John and Me Again answered your question well.
While I agree with what Me Again and John have posted, I have to disagree with you as to my two questions being answered. To repeat my questions to you: "Could you provide Scriptural support for your statement that it is impossible for a man to have victory over sin?", and, "I am also unable to find Biblical support for the idea that God wants sin to exist. Can you provide it?". I'm sorry that I am so feeble minded, but I am unable to see where the question has been answered. If Scriptural support for these beliefs was given, I am unable to comprehend it. Could you please repeat the scripture for me?

I agree that all mankind are sinners. I agree that the saved will remain sinners throughout eternity. They will be redeemed sinners after Christ returns to gather His elect to Himself. They will always be redeemed sinners, redeemed from the power of, and slavery to sin. But they will no longer commit sin. Through Christ, they will have overcome sin in their lives.

You said:
Quote
ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THAT THEY DON'T SIN IS NOT SAVED.
I believe that if you will read my post again, you will find that I no where said, or insinuated, that I believe that I do not sin. My sin is very obvious to me, as the Holy Spirit convicts me. He gives me repentance and power to put sin out of my life. He also reveals and convicts me of unknown sin (sins that I did not know were sin until He reveals it to me).

I am a sinner. I commit sin. But, through His amazing Grace, and that alone, I am overcoming sin in my life. I am putting sin out of my life. Sin I once did and loved, I no longer do. Christ imputed righteousness to cover my past sin when I submitted to Him and was saved. But I thank God, that He also imparts His righteousness that I may have victory to His glory.

The person who continues in sin without repentance (without turning away from the sin) and professes to belong to Christ, is a liar. If they continues to commit sin, it is because they love that sin more than they love Christ. They do not want to put sin out of their life and they promote the unscriptural belief that Christ accepts and saves them in their sin, not from their sin. We can not continue in sin and say we love and belong to Christ. Sin caused the suffering and death of Jesus Christ. Is Christ to be crucified anew?

Quote
God delivers from the condemnation of sin, this does not mean we reach sinlessness.

Paul writes in Romans, "Oh wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from this body of death?"
You left out the next verse where Paul gives the answer: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Through Jesus Christ we are set free and delivered!

But...we drift from my questions. Protestants declare [or at least once did] "Sola Scriptora" ("by scripture alone") . To repeat the original questions: "Could you provide Scriptural support for your statement that it is impossible for a man to have victory over sin?", and, "I am also unable to find Biblical support for the idea that God wants sin to exist. Can you provide it?". Can you support your statements by scripture?

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2007, 10:11:28 AM »
Quote
"Could you provide Scriptural support for your statement that it is impossible for a man to have victory over sin?"
IMO we must first define "victory over sin."  Exactly what does that mean???  It probably has different meanings to different people, such as:
  • The ability to never make another mortal mistake/sin.
  • The ability to be looked at by God as being sinless because we are covered with the mantle/blood of Christ.
What do you think "victory over sin" is?

Quote
I am also unable to find Biblical support for the idea that God wants sin to exist. Can you provide it?
That's a tough question.  Maybe God wants sin to exist so that it can:
  • Be allowed to fully develop into its fullest potential
  • So that it can be cast into the Lake of Fire after it becomes fully evident to all creation that it is destructive.
If God does not allow sin to fully develop, then how can creation know what it is and how destructive it is? I'm speculating and I obviously can't find scriptural support for this.

Quote
I agree that all mankind are sinners. I agree that the saved will remain sinners throughout eternity. They will be redeemed sinners after Christ returns to gather His elect to Himself. They will always be redeemed sinners, redeemed from the power of, and slavery to sin. But they will no longer commit sin. Through Christ, they will have overcome sin in their lives.
The elect are no longer sinners, neither now nor in the future, because we have been given a full pardon by the Father through what Jesus has done for the elect.  When God sees the elect, He sees Jesus, wherein is no sin.

Quote
I am a sinner. I commit sin. But, through His amazing Grace, and that alone, [size=14]I[/size] am overcoming sin in my life. I am putting sin out of my life. Sin I once did and loved, I no longer do. Christ imputed righteousness to cover my past sin when I submitted to Him and was saved. But I thank God, that He also imparts His righteousness that I may have victory to His glory.
[size=14]You[/size] can never overcome sin!!!! :eek:  Please remove "self" from the equation because it will always be insufficient!!!!  Only the grace of Christ can make you overcome sin e.g. when God sees the elect, He sees his Son Jesus and not their sins.  If God does not see the sins, then they do not exist.  Period. :what:

Quote
The person who continues in sin without repentance (without turning away from the sin) and professes to belong to Christ, is a liar.
There are many people who walk amongst the elect and who believe that they are elect and who experience the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, but they are still not elect.  

Quote
If they continues to commit sin, it is because they love that sin more than they love Christ. They do not want to put sin out of their life and they promote the unscriptural belief that Christ accepts and saves them in their sin, not from their sin. We can not continue in sin and say we love and belong to Christ.
The "perseverence of the Saints" will cause them to overcome, solely through the grace of Christ e.g. God sees Jesus when He sees them and their sin is blotted out.  Conversely, the non-elect continue in their sin because when God sees them, He sees their sin because it isn't covered by the mantle/blood of Jesus!!!! :what:

Quote
Through Jesus Christ we are set free and delivered!
When God sees the elect, He sees Jesus Christ, so the elect are set free and delivered from their sins!!!  But it won't be fully manifested or revealed until resurrection day.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Tom

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2007, 08:50:16 PM »
Throw Down,

It seems that we have different definitions of "victory over sin." While I believe Christ enables us to have victory over certain individual sins in our life, I do not believe he enables us to live sinlessly. According to your post you don't believe that either. Therefore, I believe the phrase victory over sin is an inaccurate assessment of what we have. Victory over sin would indicate we no longer sin. Since that is not the case I would hardly say we can claim victory over sin until we reach the judgement where we will be declared not guilty because of Christs payment for our sin.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Stan

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2007, 08:15:42 AM »
Taken from another site
Quote
The God of Calvin is a hypocrite. He says "Let whosoever will come and drink of the water of life freely," while knowing full well that they can't.

Offline me again

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2007, 09:12:10 AM »
Quote from: Stan;39127
Taken from another site
Quote
The God of Calvin is a hypocrite. He says "Let whosoever will come and drink of the water of life freely," while knowing full well that they can't.
Ohhhhhhh Stan is stirring the pot. :brew:

So let me see if I understand Arminianism correctly:
  • Arminianists believe that God knows the future, but doesn't dictate it.  Instead, Arminianists believe that God allows the future to unfold, based entirely and exclusively on the free will of men.  Thus, men may receive eternal life or may receive eternal death, based exclusively on their free will and their own choices, without the forced interference of God.
.
  • (Forewarning on this next one: I don't want to put words into the mouths of Arminianists: I'm simply trying to understand Arminianism):
    1) Arminianism espouses that when Jesus came to this earth in mortal form, there was a possibility that He may not have lived a sinless life
    2) based on His freewill choice
    3) because He could have chosen to sin
    4) and, thus, victory-over-sin was not guaranteed until Jesus sinlessly lived out his life
    5) thus allowing God-the-Father to raise Him from the dead.
And here is Calvinism:
  • Show me a man who trusts his own righteousness, obedience, devotion, feelings, or anything else of his own, and I will show you a man to whom the blood and righteousness of Christ is worthless. Source :snicker:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

theophilus

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Re: Calvinism
« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2007, 09:47:47 AM »
Quote
The God of Calvin is a hypocrite. He says "Let whosoever will come and drink of the water of life freely," while knowing full well that they can't.


Israel was chosen.  The rest of us are called.

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