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Author Topic: Who is this woman in Revelation?  (Read 10967 times)

Offline me again

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Who is this woman in Revelation?
« on: March 19, 2007, 06:47:04 AM »
Who is this woman in heaven who is clothed with the sun and who has a crown with 12 stars??? What are the 12 stars symbolic of?  I have always wondered who she is and have always been perplexed.  Here are the verses about her in Revelation:   Revelation 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

12:4b
...and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

12:6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

12:13
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

12:15
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

12:16
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
:smart:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2007, 07:51:14 AM »
The women is Israel, the 12 stars the twelve tribes, and the child is Jesus.
John O


Offline Quasar

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2007, 08:18:00 AM »
Rev.12:1-2 is the sign of the Son of Man and the woman represents the virgin Mary who is pregnant with Jesus.

What is the sign of the Son of Man?

The sign of the Son of Man referred to by Jesus in Mt.24:30 is explained from what was written in Rev,12:1-2, called the "Wonderous sign in heaven.'

The Great and Wonderous Sign -

You could say - it is the gospel in the sky. (Ps.89:5) This wonder takes place once every year at a very specific time. When Jesus was born. [The Star of Bethlehem was also involved in the astronomical phenomenon, but so far, only a one time event, and is another subject].

The woman represents a virgin with the sun amidst her body, representing her pregnancy. The crescent moon at her feet represents the specific time frame this event takes place.

The only time of year this event can be witnessed, is in late September/early October, as seen from the middle east, at or around the Jewish Holy Convocation - feast and festival - of Rosh Hashanah. Their New Year - which they call 'a year of new beginnings.' It is also the last fall feast and festival of their year which they call the 'feast of trumpets.' They also believe it marks the day God created Adam.

The woman's body is in the Constellation of Virgo (The virgin). She represents the virgin Mary, of Israel, and has a crown of twelve stars on her head - representing the twelve tribes of Israel. The sun is amid her body, signifying her pregnancy.

Her head is about 10% in the previous Constellation Leo (The Lion - of Judah) and the crescent moon is at her feet, about 10% into the Constellation Libra (The scales of righteousness and judgement).

With all the heavenly bodies in motion, this event can take place only between a time frame from 7:15 to 7:45 P.M., a 30 minute window.

So when Jesus talks about His return at His Second Advent in Mt.24:30, it will be at that specific time of year - and time frame!

For the full treatment on this outstanding story, read Dr. Ernest L. Martin, PhD., book, "The Star That Astonished The World." Which also reveals what the Star of Bethlehem was, from the years of studies by scientists and astronomers working together on it. [Click on "The Birth of Christ," under Books].

http://www.askelm.com

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Zaph

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2007, 08:57:17 AM »
This woman is the christian church. More than once in the Bible you'll find that woman is used to symbolize the church.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2007, 09:21:44 AM »
Quote from: Zaph;39064
This woman is the christian church. More than once in the Bible you'll find that woman is used to symbolize the church.


A women also symbolizes Israel
John O


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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2007, 01:36:09 PM »
So far, this thread has said that the woman in Revelation 12:1 is:
  • Israel
  • The Christian Church
  • Israel
However, Revelation 12:4 and 12:13 says that she gave birth to a man-child.  The Christian church didn't give birth to Jesus, so how can the woman be the church?  

I can see how the woman would be symbolic of Israel to a greater degree and to the virgin Mary to a much lesser degree.  

Opinions?
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2007, 03:19:08 PM »
The virgin Mary is the specific person in the nation of Israel that the Apostle John is talking about, but the Jewish Nation being the chosen people that would bring forth Messiah is the most direct application of the scripture.
John O


Offline Zaph

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2007, 08:54:35 PM »
John, I see what you're saying and in a sense I agree. I just always view God's true believers (OT or NT) as the church. Even in OT times "gentiles" could enter the Jewish faith. Even now we are grafted in. I also agree that Jesus is the child spoken of in the text that was referenced.

As one reads the whole Bible a woman does represent God's believers. Several times God's people are likened to a bride making herself ready for the bridegroom.

A Pure Woman = True Church Jeremiah 6:2; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:23-27

A Corrupt Woman = Apostate church Ezk. 16:15-58; 23:2-21; Hos. 2:5; 3:1; Rev. 14:4

cdhale

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2007, 11:52:12 AM »
I would agree with John O on this thread...

clint

Offline Tom

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2007, 02:10:32 PM »
Johnny O gets the prize.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2007, 03:12:23 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;39069
The women is Israel, the 12 stars the twelve tribes, and the child is Jesus.  The virgin Mary is the specific person in the nation of Israel that the Apostle John is talking about, but the Jewish Nation being the chosen people that would bring forth Messiah is the most direct application of the scripture.
A Catholic told me that the woman was the virgin Mary -- and my jaw hit the floor when she said that because it had never crossed my mind that Mary could be in the book of Revelation.  I'm still chewing on that concept.  

If the woman is the nation of Israel, then how do you interpret the prophecies about her (in the scriptures that are in the original post)?
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

st_michael

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2007, 09:39:28 AM »
Quote from: me again;39081
A Catholic told me that the woman was the virgin Mary -- and my jaw hit the floor when she said that because it had never crossed my mind that Mary could be in the book of Revelation.  I'm still chewing on that concept.  

If the woman is the nation of Israel, then how do you interpret the prophecies about her (in the scriptures that are in the original post)?


Hello,

The Catholic Church teaches all the thoughts of this thread... The woman can be Israel, The woman is the Church and yes in a more sense the woman is the Virgin Mary.

This has been the the teaching of the Church... Scripture cannot be bound to one sense only, but many senses...  

Typology and foreshadowing ALWAYS points to a specific and Historical person... In this case the "Woman" in Revelation does in-fact symbolize the Church, Israel and Mary.  Mary is the only historical "Real" person this can point to...  

The Fathers of the Church have long taught Mary is the "New Ark" of the New Covenant...  In John's vision in Revelation he see's the ark of the Old Testament then immediately see's the "New Ark", Mary.  The woman that bears the Child (all understand is Jesus).  However, the Child is also the Church...  but no Christian will deny the Child points to the Person, who is historically found in Scripture, Jesus our Lord...  

Jesus is the Living Word of God, The True Bread of Life and the High Priest...  The old testament Ark had the Ten Commandments (Word of God), The manna (Bread from God) and the rod of Arron (The high priest).  The New living Ark, Mary carried the True Living Word of God, The True Bread of Life and the True High Priest, Jesus!  

The symoblism is clear... and typology ALWAYS points to a REAL HISTORICAL person.  It also points to other senses...  It does not have to be one thing or another... but it can be multiple understanding with all being true...  

The book "Hail, Holy Queen" by Scott Hahn can help any with the biblical and historical reasoning for the belief's of Mary...

   Hail, Holy Queen
http://www.getfed.com/product_detail.cfm?ID=733&AID=164&new=yes

Jesus spoke to St. John from the cross, "Behold your Mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. Like John we are Christ's beloved disciples, His younger siblings. His heavenly home is ours, His Father is ours, and His mother is ours too. Yet how many Christians today are taking her into their homes? In Scott Hahn’s book, "Hail Holy Queen, The Mother of God in the Word of God," he employs the same accessible, entertaining style as his best-selling The Lamb's Supper, to demonstrate Mary's essential role in Christianity's redemptive message.

Learning to Type Most Catholics know that the life of Jesus is foreshadowed in the Old Testament but, according to Scott Hahn, typology doesn't end there. Through a close examination of the Bible as well as the work of both Catholic and Protestant scholars and clergy, Dr. Hahn brings to light the small but significant scriptural details revealing that just as Jesus is the "New Adam," so Mary is the "New Eve." And how just as the Old Testament ark was made to bear the old covenant, the Virgin Mary was made to bear the new covenant, unveiling the Marian mystery at the heart of the Book of Revelation and uncovering how it is foretold in the very first pages of the Book of Genesis. He also finds evidence for Mary's Queenship in the story of the Davidic monarchy, which speaks of a privileged place for the Queen Mother and much, much more.

From Here to Maternity

Reading or listening to Hail Holy Queen, you'll gain a profound understanding of the nature of God's covenant family. In His family nothing is missing. Everything Jesus has He shares with us; His divine life; His Father and His mother as well. With great conviction, Scott explores how the many Old Testament types, our deepest human needs, and even creation itself all tell us that a family without a mother is incomplete. You'll discover that the apostles, who gathered with Mary in Jerusalem at Pentecost, and the early Christians, who painted her image in the catacombs and dedicated their churches to her, knew and taught this since the earliest times.

Building on these scriptural and historical foundations, Dr. Hahn presents a new look at Marian doctrines: her Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, Assumption and Coronation. Hail Holy Queen - The Mother of God in the Word of God guides modern-day readers through passages filled with great mystery. Get your copy today and rediscover the ancient art and science of reading the scriptures to gain a more profound understanding of their truthfulness and relevance to faith and the practice of Catholicism in the contemporary world.

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2007, 10:00:08 AM »
Quote from: st_michael;39099
The Fathers of the Church have long taught Mary is the "New Ark" of the New Covenant... In John's vision in Revelation he see's the ark of the Old Testament then immediately see's the "New Ark", Mary. The woman that bears the Child (all understand is Jesus). However, the Child is also the Church... but no Christian will deny the Child points to the Person, who is historically found in Scripture, Jesus our Lord...

Jesus is the Living Word of God, The True Bread of Life and the High Priest... The old testament Ark had the Ten Commandments (Word of God), The manna (Bread from God) and the rod of Arron (The high priest). The New living Ark, Mary carried the True Living Word of God, The True Bread of Life and the True High Priest, Jesus!
Yes, that's exactly what I was told.  

Quote from: st_michael;39099
Jesus spoke to St. John from the cross, "Behold your Mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home. Like John we are Christ's beloved disciples, His younger siblings. His heavenly home is ours, His Father is ours, and His mother is ours too[/b]. Yet how many Christians today are taking her into their homes?
I find a disconnect here.  Mother Mary is not our mother, at least not to my understanding.  

Quote from: st_michael;39099
Dr. Hahn brings to light the small but significant scriptural details revealing that just as Jesus is the "New Adam," so Mary is the "New Eve." And how just as the Old Testament ark was made to bear the old covenant, the Virgin Mary was made to bear the new covenant, unveiling the Marian mystery at the heart of the Book of Revelation and uncovering how it is foretold in the very first pages of the Book of Genesis. He also finds evidence for Mary's Queenship in the story of the Davidic monarchy, which speaks of a privileged place for the Queen Mother and much, much more.
Hummmmmm, once again, that's what I was told e.g. that Mary is the queen of heaven.  Is there any scriptural support for such a stance?  Was any such belief in existence prior to the year 400 AD e.g. what did the apostles believe?

Quote from: st_michael;39099
In His family nothing is missing. Everything Jesus has He shares with us; His divine life; His Father and His mother as well.
Okay, I understand that context, but how do we extrapolate Mary as being the queen of heaven from that? Okay, nevermind: I see that you just answered that below:

Quote from: st_michael;39099
With great conviction, Scott explores how the many Old Testament types, our deepest human needs, and even creation itself all tell us that a family without a mother is incomplete. You'll discover that the apostles, who gathered with Mary in Jerusalem at Pentecost, and the early Christians, who painted her image in the catacombs and dedicated their churches to her, knew and taught this since the earliest times.
Okay, when we say "Hail Mary," that is an Old English term that means "hey you" (imagine calling out to someone in a crowd: Hey you!).  From a scriptural standpoint, why would we hail anyone other than Jesus when He specifically said that no man can get to heaven except through Him?  Why hail anyone other than Him?
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2007, 10:03:01 AM »
Matthew 18:16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Jesus quoted the law in reference that every matter be established by two or three witnesses.  I say that because I think using the reference from the Gospel of John of Jesus making sure His earthly mother was going to be taken care of, and then somehow assigning a universal motherhood to Mary over all believers is very bad exegesis.

If I follow that kind of exegesis, I could then do this:

2 Sam 11:2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, 3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, "Isn't this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?" 4 Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her.

Since the bible said that the king, or a person in leadership took a women not his wife and slept with her, then it must be okay for me as a pastor to take any women I want in the church and commit adultry. :what:

Of course I don't believe that, because elsewhere in the bible I find that God specifically says that I can't do that.   It's proof texting- ripping a scripture out of it's immediate context and making it say something it doesn't.
John O


st_michael

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2007, 10:33:53 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;39101
Matthew 18:16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Jesus quoted the law in reference that every matter be established by two or three witnesses.  I say that because I think using the reference from the Gospel of John of Jesus making sure His earthly mother was going to be taken care of, and then somehow assigning a universal motherhood to Mary over all believers is very bad exegesis.

If I follow that kind of exegesis, I could then do this:

2 Sam 11:2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, 3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, "Isn't this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?" 4 Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her.

Since the bible said that the king, or a person in leadership took a women not his wife and slept with her, then it must be okay for me as a pastor to take any women I want in the church and commit adultry. :what:

Of course I don't believe that, because elsewhere in the bible I find that God specifically says that I can't do that.   It's proof texting- ripping a scripture out of it's immediate context and making it say something it doesn't.


"Hail Mary" is direct from Scripture Luke 1:28

   The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

As for Mary being our Mother... If Jesus is our brother... Mary is our Mother...  She is also our sister...  The problem many outside of the Catholic Church run across (IMHO) is they believe a verse means this or that... the Catholic understandings is that it can be both!

Mary has been long understood as the New Eve...  Eve is the Mother of humankind... Mary is the Mother of Christian's...  

The last words of Jesus on the cross was not only trying to take care of domestic issues of who will take care of his Mother...  but he was teaching another profound truth... Every word he spoke had more senses than just the words themselves... Jesus was teaching that his Mother is John's Mother,  John is Mary's son...  John represents all Christian's... Mary is the Mother of All Christian's...

   Revelation 12:17
The the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God's commandments and bear witness to Jesus.

If Mary is the woman as the Catholic Church teaches and if she is the Mother of ALL Christian's this balances out the verse in Revelation 12:17 nicely...  

The Catholic Church also understands this verse to mean Isreal is also the mother of us All and also the Church is the mother...  All three can and do apply to the Verse above...  But every teaching of symbolism points to a specific person in History...  in the case of the woman it points to Mary, The mother of our Lord (Luke 1:43) our brother!  If our brother and if all that he has is our's in Christ then Mary, who is the Mother of Jesus is also our Mother...  


   
The Hail Mary prayer is direct from Scripture!

"Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." - Luke 1:28

"Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear!" - Luke 1:42

"mother of our Lord" - Luke 1:43

"pray for us" - 1 Thessalonians 5:25

Hail Mary full of grace. The Lord is with you.
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary mother of God,
pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.
Amen!

 

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