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Author Topic: Who is this woman in Revelation?  (Read 11270 times)

Online John Oscar

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2007, 11:08:08 AM »
I suppose there is no way to "win" this discussion, as the RCC doesn't follow the same scriptural exegesis as Protestant's (not a slam against you, but recognizing the elevation of RCC teaching to that of scripture)

Following the evangelical Protestant metheod of exegesis, your arguement that the Hail Mary prayer is scriptural has the following problems:


1.  The angel was speaking to Mary, not praying to Mary.  Gabriel was functioning as a messenger, not a worshipper.

2.  Mary is nowhere in scripture or early church writings (ante-Nicene) referred to us as the mother, queen, or co-redemptrix of heaven.  My understanding is that it was first postulated by Jerome in or around 400 AD.  That is a considerable gap of teaching that begs an answer to a question- how come no one else realized that for over 300 years?

3.  In order to form the Hail Mary prayer, you are piecing together scriptures that had no relation to each other.  I could do the same thing and piece together a prayer that would promote me as God, but it would not be scriptural (that, and my lightening insurance is lapsed) :what:

4.  We have before noted that there are several problems in praying to Mary (or any other human) to begin with.  First and formost, it is no where commanded in scripture to do so.  Quite the opposite, we are to pray to God, and God alone.  Second, Mary has no divine attributes- she is not omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent.  All three would be required to hear the prayers of every Catholic in the world at once.  

5.  Lastly, calling Mary co-redemptrix is blasphemy to a Protestant.  We worship Christ alone as our Savior, and His is the only name given under heaven by which men must be saved.



Again, I'm not throwing these points out there to slam you, but to show you the Protestant perspective on this.  Of course, hanging around here, you are probably well associated with it :)
John O


st_michael

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2007, 08:25:44 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;39104

Following the evangelical Protestant metheod of exegesis, your arguement that the Hail Mary prayer is scriptural has the following problems:


1.  The angel was speaking to Mary, not praying to Mary.  Gabriel was functioning as a messenger, not a worshipper.

The problem I see is the Catholic's understand Pray as different then some Protestants... The word pray in its basic meaning is "request".  Thus when you ask your fellow christian to pray for you, logically you are praying (requesting) your fellow christian to Pray (request) Jesus to grant the prayer (request).

In this understanding of "pray" the Catholic and most Protestant's should not have any difficulty with the Hail Mary greeting... We are simply asking a fellow Christian who is alive in Christ to pray for us to Jesus...
Quote

2.  Mary is nowhere in scripture or early church writings (ante-Nicene) referred to us as the mother, queen, or co-redemptrix of heaven.  My understanding is that it was first postulated by Jerome in or around 400 AD.  That is a considerable gap of teaching that begs an answer to a question- how come no one else realized that for over 300 years?

I will do some digging for you... however, please keep in mind we do not have many church writings in terms of dogma's during the 300 years you question for the simply fact that the Christian's where more worried about staying alive and away from the Roman's who where killing Christian's...  Dogma's where not top on the list...  The Holy Scriptures did not take their form until your time reference and still many disputed what should be in the Christian Holy Scripture...  

I will address the other points to your points...  

I do not wish to win a discussion as so much to present the Catholic understanding correctly and allow people to look at it without misconceptions...

st_michael

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2007, 03:09:41 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;39104

5.  Lastly, calling Mary co-redemptrix is blasphemy to a Protestant.  We worship Christ alone as our Savior, and His is the only name given under heaven by which men must be saved.


Do you believe you are doing God's work by Evangelizing?  Are you not a co-worker in God's work?  

   1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are God's co-workers; you are God's field, God's building.

What is the difference in calling ourselves "co-workers" and calling Mary "co-redemptrix".  

Did not Mary bring Jesus into this world through her womb?  Grace came through Mary...  Therefore she is also a "co-worker" but in a more special way then us Christian's after his passion...  This is the teaching of the title we give Mary as "co-redemptrix".

The Catholic understanding has been around since the begining... it may not have the written documentation as many would like...  Let us look at some early Christian Fathers that demonstrate there understanding that Mary is the New Eve and from her "yes" she fixed Eve's "no" to God and thus the "human race" was "rescued" by her "obedience".

   1. That the Lord then was manifestly coming to His own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation which is supported by Himself, and was making a recapitulation of that disobedience which had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience which was [exhibited by Himself when He hung] upon a tree, [the effects] also of that deception being done away with, by which that virgin Eve, who was already espoused to a man, was unhappily misled,—was happily announced, through means of the truth [spoken] by the angel to the Virgin Mary, who was [also espoused] to a man. For just as the former was led astray by the word of an angel, so that she fled from God when she had transgressed His word; so did the latter, by an angelic communication, receive the glad tidings that she should sustain (portaret) God, being obedient to His word. And if the former did disobey God, yet the latter was persuaded to be obedient to God, in order that the Virgin Mary might become the patroness (advocata) of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so is it rescued by a virgin; virginal disobedience having been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way the sin of the first created man (protoplasti) receives amendment by the correction of the First-begotten, and the coming of the serpent is conquered by the harmlessness of the dove, those bonds being unloosed by which we had been fast bound to death.
St. Irenaeus, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103519.htm)

Mary, the God-bearer
(Athanasius, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2811.htm)

Mary Bearer of God
(Athanasius, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/28163.htm)

Mary Ever-Virgin
(Athanasius, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/28162.htm)

I do not expect to win any discussion... It makes me sad when people beleive the Catholic Church thinks up stuff out of thin air when it has been the teaching of the Church for 2,000 years...  

The problem I see is that people want documentation of the teaching in written format to validate the truth of its existence before a certain date...  The Trinity would fail the test of being supported as a dogma of the Church until after Nicene.

And yet we can find glimpses of the teaching in the Early Christian writings as Irenaeus who live around 120 - 190 AD has taught.  Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp who was a student of the Apostle John...

st_michael

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2007, 12:30:04 PM »
Quote from: me again;39100

I find a disconnect here.  Mother Mary is not our mother, at least not to my understanding.


I find this odd...  do you find the same disconnect with another Christian as a brother?  What is the difference... calling one a brother is merly expressing the kind of relationship we have with another in Christ...  The relationship with my biological mother can be a mother-son relationship (which it is) or it could be only the person who brought me into this world... I call my mom, mother because she "mothered" me and my brothers... I call Mary, mother because she "mothered" my Lord and God Jesus and continues to mother him as I continue to be his brother...  The relationship I have with Mary is bound up with the relationship I have with Jesus...

Jesus did not just use Mary as a means to enter into time as both human and God... he also allowed her to be his mother which she embraced with all humility.  If God commanded all to honor your Mother and Father and if Jesus would fullfill this command perfectly, how can I go wrong by honoring the Mother of Jesus, by calling her my mother as I would honor my best friends mother by calling her mother also?  I have friends that I have taught my boys to call uncle... My boys know he is not my biological brother... yet they understand the relationship I have with my friend and call him "uncle" because they wish to honor him as I honor him....  

Quote
 
Hummmmmm, once again, that's what I was told e.g. that Mary is the queen of heaven.  Is there any scriptural support for such a stance?  Was any such belief in existence prior to the year 400 AD e.g. what did the apostles believe?


Why the date qualifier...  can you find scriptural support for which books belong to the Bible?  or what books are the Bible before the year 350 AD?

Your qualifier is a bit restraining,  The understanding of the Trinity would fail your test with a qualifier... and from my understanding of Christianity the Trinity is the cornerstone beleif of the Christian faith... and yet the scriptural support is not explicit and the official dogma is not found prior to Nicene...  

Why do you believe the doctrines of Mary would appear before the doctrine of the Trinity?  When understanding Mary is not the primary belief of the Christian Faith but the Trinity is a primary belief...  

Quote

Okay, when we say "Hail Mary," that is an Old English term that means "hey you" (imagine calling out to someone in a crowd: Hey you!).  From a scriptural standpoint, why would we hail anyone other than Jesus when He specifically said that no man can get to heaven except through Him?  Why hail anyone other than Him?


Why greet your mother? Your father? brother/sister? or any person for that matter...  

We greet (hail) people when we first approach them...  we continue to talk with them and we end our conversation...  

The Catholic understands any person who is in the love of Christ is alive in the Body of Christ and can help in our prayer request...  Many will ask me to pray for them and I do... I have asked many to pray for me...  Likewise in the "Hail Mary" prayer

we first approach Mary with a heartfelt greeting in the same way the angel Gabriel does.

   "HAIL MARY, FULL OF GRACE, THE LORD IS WITH YOU". (LUKE 1:28)

We fulfill the scripture verse by calling Mary Blessed (LUKE 1:48),
   “BLESSED ARE YOU AMONG WOMEN”  (LUKE 1:42).  

We proclaim as Elizabeth does

   “BLESSED IS THE FRUIT OF YOUR WOMB, JESUS” (LUKE 1:42)

We proclaim who Mary is by understanding who Jesus is as Elizabeth does.  We only know who we are by understanding who Jesus is.  The same is with Mary... we can only understand who she is because of Jesus...  

   “HOLY MARY MOTHER OF GOD” (LUKE 1:43)

We finally ask our request (prayer) of Mary as we would other Christian in the love of Christ.

   “PRAY FOR US (1 THESSALONIANS 5:25) SINNERS, NOW AND AT THE HOUR OF OUR DEATH. AMEN”

I have never uderstood why the problem with Protestants and the Hail Mary... I see nothing unbiblical (Blasphemes) about the prayer... 99% of the prayer is from Holy Scripture and it is not pieced together as John believes, as I tried to demonstrate above...
« Last Edit: March 24, 2007, 01:38:18 PM by st_michael »

st_michael

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2007, 01:21:01 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;39104
Mary has no divine attributes- she is not omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent. All three would be required to hear the prayers of every Catholic in the world at once. :)


God is all three... The Apostle John does not have divine attributes and yet he was able to hear "every creature in heaven and on earth" when he was "in the spirit" on the "Lord's day" (Rev 1:10).

Who more is in the spirit then the saint's that have passed away in the Love of Christ...  

   2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Revelation 5:13
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
   "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
   be praise and honor and glory and power,
         for ever and ever!"

Online John Oscar

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2007, 02:14:21 PM »
Placed in it's proper context, Irenaeus' argument was for the supremacy of Christ, and Mary was a minor sub-point in that whole argument.  The argument style he is using is reminiscent of the author of Hebrews.

Taking a verse from Revelation and saying that because John heard "every creature" that Mary should also be able to do the same thing is a huge stretch of biblical exegesis.  Actually, I wouldn't call it exegesis at all, but proof-texting; putting theology before what the bible actually says.

Here is the verse in context:

Rev 5:11-14

11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they sang:

"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"

13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:

"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
      for ever and ever!"

14 The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.

The obvious meaning and subject (which is the critical part of biblical interpretation) in these verses is that the entire universe stopped and gave glory to Christ.  It is not that John was given a supernatural ability to hear every thought and word every spoken.  It's a poetic description of an overwhelming and indescribable event, which is found throughout prophetic literature.  Although according to the verbal plenary mode of biblical interpretation (which I subscribe to), the Holy Spirit wrote the bible through the authors using their own styles, the authors were still limited by their experience, education, and culture's ability to describe certain things.

To be honest, 2000 years removed from the events John described, I don't think I could describe what he heard and saw any better.

A thought just popped into my head concerning John being given divine attributes:

Isa 48:11
1 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.
NKJV

The glory of the Lord is described as His manifest presence, and in that presence, all three divine attributes come to bear.....it's why the Lord refused to show Moses that glory.  It would destroy him... it would be putting 1 quadrillion pounds into a 1 picogram bag.

Just a thought.

Back to the subject-

The trinity theology was actually very well established by the majority of churches prior to Nicea.   It just came under fire from the Arian's, and their teaching held so much sway, that it had to be dealt with.

More to come....gotta fix the dryer :smack:
John O


st_michael

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2007, 03:13:57 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;39124

Isa 48:11
1 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.
NKJV

The glory of the Lord is described as His manifest presence, and in that presence, all three divine attributes come to bear.....it's why the Lord refused to show Moses that glory.  It would destroy him... it would be putting 1 quadrillion pounds into a 1 picogram bag.

Just a thought.

The Glory is ALL God's...  our good works are not our own... but God's... any gift the Lord gives is not our's but the Lord's...  The Glory is ALL God's... God gives not to get more Glory... for God cannot get more Glory than he already has... he has ALL Glory...  When he gave John the ability to "hear every creature" the Glory is not given to John, but John was given a gift to be able to "hear every creature"...  The Glory is God's...

Praise be to God for allowing John the vision of Heaven...  I understand the words John used is limited to John's own understanding and restrained to the language of the world of his time... yet he described it as "hearing every creature"... however you dance around that verse John understood it as being able to "hear every creature" some how, some way...  Call it the Glory of God and being "in the spirit" John was able to be given a gift only God can give...


st_michael

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2007, 10:12:10 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;39104

2.  Mary is nowhere in scripture or early church writings (ante-Nicene) referred to us as the mother, queen, or co-redemptrix of heaven.


In the Davidic Kingdom the mother of the King is the queen mother, and since Jesus is the King of the Davidic Kingdom his mother is the queen...  

King Soloman "had a throne brought" for her where the King placed it "at his right hand".

   1 Kings 2:13-20
Now Adonijah, the son of Haggith, went to Bathsheba, Solomon’s mother. Bathsheba asked him, “Do you come peacefully?”
He answered, “Yes, peacefully.”  Then he added, “I have something to say to you.”
“You may say it,” she replied.
“As you know,” he said, “the kingdom was mine. All Israel looked to me as their king. But things changed, and the kingdom has gone to my brother; for it has come to him from the LORD.  Now I have one request to make of you. Do not refuse me.”
“You may make it,” she said.
So he continued, “Please ask King Solomon—he will not refuse you—to give me Abishag the Shunammite as my wife.”
“Very well,” Bathsheba replied, “I will speak to the king for you.”
When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand. “I have one small request to make of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.”
The king replied, “Make it, my mother; I will not refuse you.”

Online John Oscar

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2007, 01:17:54 PM »
David did this too:

2 Sam 11:2-4

2 One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, 3 and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, "Isn't this Bathsheba , the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?" 4 Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her.
NIV


Does that make it a requisite for all men to sleep with their friends wives?  After all, Jesus sits on David's throne.....did he mess with Peter's wife?

Sorry, just pointing out very faulty logic....
John O


st_michael

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Typology 101
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2007, 03:52:52 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;39158
David did this too:

2 Sam 11:2-4

Does that make it a requisite for all men to sleep with their friends wives?  After all, Jesus sits on David's throne.....did he mess with Peter's wife?

Sorry, just pointing out very faulty logic....


What is Typology?

   a type in scripture is a person or thing in the Old Testament which foreshadows a person or thing in the New. For example, the flood of Noah’s day (Genesis 6-7) is used to typify baptism in 1 Peter 3:20-21. The word for type that Peter uses is figure.
http://www.gotquestions.org/typology-Biblical.html

a theological doctrine or theory of types and their antitypes found in Scripture...common typological allegory entails the four major Old testament prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel prefiguring the four Evangelists Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, or the twelve tribes of Israel foreshadowing the twelve apostles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typology_%28theology%29

a person, a thing, or an action, having its own independent and absolute existence, but at the same time intended by God to prefigure a future person, thing, or action.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15107a.htm

The New is concealed in the Old and the Old is revealed in the New.

All things in the Old is revealed in the new...  The Bible is so vast it can be read by the simple or studied by the learned.

   1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Using Typology does not forshadow all one does the other will do...  Paul understood Adam as a type of Christ when he clearly teaches Jesus as the "last Adam".  This does not limit Jesus to commit the same sin's as Adam because adam was a type of Christ... just as in your thought that David is a type of Christ and therefore Jesus will commit adultry...  

The events, people and things in the old are understood to be types and are only a shadow of heavenly realities...

A type will always point to a specific person, event or thing...  Mary is the new Ark...  Mary is the new Eve... Mary is the Queen Mother...  many types are in the Old Testament... however Mary is what the types are pointing towards... just as the Flood is a type of Baptism... the Red Sea is a type of Baptism.  Adam is a type of Christ...  

There are many types to study... but Typology is used in Holy Scripture itself and therefore can be used by his Church to understand Holy Scripture...  

   St. Justin Martyr (130-165 AD)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01283.htm

He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to your word.' " Luke 1:38 And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.

Online John Oscar

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2007, 06:10:44 AM »
I understand what typology is, but thank you for the lesson anyway.  :)

You didn't address the point.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 09:25:52 AM by John Oscar »
John O


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Re: Typology 101
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2007, 06:43:18 AM »
Quote from: st_michael;39164
Snip...
He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to your word.' " Luke 1:38 And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.
Interesting read and I was also told that.  In addition, I was told that it says in Genesis that the heal of the woman (e.g. Eve) would crush the head of the serpent.  However, when I looked it up, it appears to be referring to Jesus and not to Mary:   Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
[/color]
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

st_michael

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Re: Typology 101
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2007, 10:18:11 AM »
Quote from: me again;39167

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.[/b][/color]


I would not go so far as to put the woman's heal was to crush the head...

Although it may be a type... for in book of Romans the Church of Rome is described as crushing Satan...  
   Romans 16:20
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your [Church of Rome] feet.

It is interesting that both the seed (Jesus) and the woman (Mary) will have an "enmity" between the serpent...  Not just Jesus!

st_michael

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2007, 10:26:58 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;39165
I understand what typology is, but thank you for the lesson anyway.  :)

You didn't address the point.

The lesson was for the public more so than you... I wanted to help people who may not understand my point and your points against mine...  This would allow people to make their own informed decisions about our topic.

My point was to show that your understanding of my "faulty logic" would erase "Typology" all together and any person can argue against any typology through demonstrating the person who is the type did things the other did not...  however Types sometimes demonstrate similiar situations but one person did the correct thing and not commit adultry...

Jesus did the correct thing by trusting God when Adam did not... Mary also did the correct thing by being obedient to God while Eve was disobedient...
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 09:33:15 PM by st_michael »

 

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