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Author Topic: Who is this woman in Revelation?  (Read 11269 times)

Online John Oscar

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2007, 10:47:58 AM »
I would somewhat agree with typology of the point that Mary was the second Eve, more from a philosophical view then a biblical.  

The problems with making that a hard and fast doctrine is this-

Christ is the second Adam, and lived in the sinless perfection of charactor that the first Adam was meant to.

We can't say that about Mary.  Nowhere in the bible does it say that Mary was sinless, and if she was, it invalidates Rom 3:23 and/or causes a biblical counterdiction.

Adam was born from God forming him from the earth and breathing the breath of life into him...(almost ex nilio) whereas Christ was born from the power of God entering a virgin and creating life.

Mary had two natural parents.

more later...have a call
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 08:24:40 PM by John Oscar »
John O


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Re: Typology 101
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2007, 07:07:23 PM »
Quote from: st_michael;39168
   Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.I would not go so far as to put the woman's heal was to crush the head...

Although it may be a type... for in book of Romans the Church of Rome is described as crushing Satan...  
   Romans 16:20
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your [Church of Rome] feet.

It is interesting that both the seed (Jesus) and the woman (Mary) will have an "enmity" between the serpent...  Not just Jesus!
Point well taken.  I guess that it could be Eve and all her offspring, to include Mary and Jesus.  Naturally, it's only because of Jesus that we have the victory.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

st_michael

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2007, 09:32:05 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;39170
I would somewhat agree with typology of the point that Mary was the second Eve, more from a philosophical view then a biblical.  


What about Mary as the New Ark also?

   The Old Testament Ark
"contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant" (Hebrews 9:4)

When the ark of the Lord was brought to David he "leaped" and "danced before the LORD" (2 Samuel 6:13,15)

So also with Mary, she contained the true manna from God (Jesus), the true priesthood (Jesus) and the True Word of God (Jesus) just as the Old Testament ark contained the types of Jesus, Mary contained the true living Jesus..  

furthermore, when Mary, the new ark, was brought to the baby, John the Baptist, he "leaped for joy" (Luke 1:44) as David "leaped" when the type of Mary came before him...

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2007, 09:35:22 AM »
Quote from: st_michael;39174
What about Mary as the New Ark also?

   The Old Testament Ark
"contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant" (Hebrews 9:4)

When the ark of the Lord was brought to David he "leaped" and "danced before the LORD" (2 Samuel 6:13,15)

So also with Mary, she contained the true manna from God (Jesus), the true priesthood (Jesus) and the True Word of God (Jesus) just as the Old Testament ark contained the types of Jesus, Mary contained the true living Jesus..  

furthermore, when Mary, the new ark, was brought to the baby, John the Baptist, he "leaped for joy" (Luke 1:44) as David "leaped" when the type of Mary came before him...
Hummmmm interesting.  I was also given the above analogy, which I had never previously considered.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2007, 07:06:37 AM »
Hi guys,

Back to the subject of the thread - Rev.12:1-2 - the wondrous sign in the sky, is revealing to us what the sign of the Son of Man is, Jesus referred to  in Mt.24:30, and the very timing of Jesus Second Coming.  It is the actual "picture" of the birth of Jesus in the heavens and represents precise timing of that event.

As I posted before, this astronomical sign in the heavens is seen every year, on or around the Jewish Holy Day of Rosh Hashanah, which they believe is the anniversary of when God began the creation.  They call it, "The Day of New Beginnings."

All of this was covered in my first post on this thread, pg.1.

Blessings

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Ken1Burton

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2007, 01:17:53 AM »
The Woman is the nation of Israel. The moon is under her feet:

Psalms 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

The day of the Cross, the Sun or Throne is darkened as Jesus died and they think that is the end of Him. Remember on the third day they came to give Jesus a proper burial, Not to greet Him.

The Moon is the Establishment of the Throne, The Moon is turned to blood as it is the Blood of Christ which establishes the Throne as Scriptures are fulfilled.

The Nation of Israel is who has to offer the sacrifice under the law. So the Moon or establishing the Throne is a prophecy for Israel.

Time is the Creation story in 3975 B.C (Dates from Reese Chronological Bible) to the Baptism in 25 A.D. (Our Calendar is four years off) or 4,000 years. At the Fulness of Time, God sent forth His Son.

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Times is the day of the Cross seen as 2,000 years:

Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Ecclesiastes 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told , yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

Rather lengthy to explain this 2,000 years, But it can be explained.

Half a Time, seen as the Dividing of time in Daniel chapter 7, Then from the Cross in 29 A.D till 2029 A.D. when the Nation of Israel will see the Serpent, and WHO has Israel not been able to see?

The three and a half year ministry or His age is seen as nothing before God in Scripture.

2029 A.D. Israel will see Jesus, See Him as the Serpent, and will follow Him. God uses that which is despised. They will see Jesus in Truth.

Similitude for the Jewish Nation to follow Jesus who is the Ark.

Joshua 3:3 And they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, and the priests the Levites bearing it, then ye shall remove from your place, and go after it.
4 Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure: come not near unto it, that ye may know the way by which ye must go: for ye have not passed this way heretofore.

They saw the Ark or Jesus and the Levites or Priests bear Him up at Golgotha in 29 A.D. In 2029 A.D. the Cubits as years, they will Follow Christ.


John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I forgot the man’s first name, Last name was Harvey. He had a radio program a long time ago  called “The Rest of the Story.”  There is a lot more.

Ken

Mark@FL

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2007, 11:33:07 PM »
The Divine Woman gives birth to a male child who is caught up to God. Her child will rule the nations with a rod of iron. The symbolism in bold precludes the child referrring to the first coming of Christ since Jesus was a lamb. The second coming of Christ is also precluded because when the Second Christ rules there will be peace on earth and no need for an iron rod, since only Saints remain. The child of the Divine women appears to be someone else.  

Getting back to the Divine Woman, one thing to notice is that Satan or the Dragon is kicked out of Heaven around same the time the Divine Woman gives birth. They both come to earth around the same time with the dragon continuing his pursuit. It is like the birth of her child displaced Satan from heaven. That is probably why Satan was trying to devour and kill her child.

What this suggests is that the lamb of God, Christ, can stay a lamb since there is another helper near the thrown of God who can use (Satan's chair) for God, against Satan and his earthly followers. Christ is the right hand of God, her son is the new left hand of God. Her son is Faithful and True, he works for God and for Christ but can use the power that was once given to Satan, so he can do the dirty work but with righteousness. This allows the Lamb to remain a lamb, rather than regress Christ back into an old testament God.

Buzzard

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2007, 02:37:14 AM »
Hey Guys,
we are told that "the New Birth"
    Thou must be Born Again

comes thru much travail, same as with a woman and the birth of a child

Christ gave 7 Parables in Matt ch 13, the last of these he tells of Judgement to come
Quote
~{Matt. 13:41}~
 The Son of man shall send forth his angels,
and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend,
and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Quote
Judgement has come upon the church

    ~{1Peter 4:17}~
    For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:
    and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
    18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Now Peter links Judgement and Suffering togather
    19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God
    commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Now we are told in the Prophets that Judgement will began with the :preach:  leadership 1st, :preach:
then pass to the laity,
Peter continues this thought
    The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder,
    and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
    2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof,
    not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
    3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock....................

    10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus,
    after that ye have
suffered a while, [to] make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.[/list]


When will this "Judgement" and the cleansing of the church happen ???????????????

John tells us
Quote
    ~{Rev.3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;....
    16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,
    I will spue thee out of my mouth.
But there are "a few" that will "overcome"
    19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore,
and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door,
I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,
[/list]

I bring this up "be zealous therefore, and repent." because we have an example of this in Leviticus ch 23,
its called "Day of Attonement" or as the Jews said "Day of Judgement"
it came 10 days after the "Blowing of the Trumpets" or the call to appear before the Lord to give an account of yourself

Now, back to the Woman in Rev. ch 12

something most overlook; is this "Woman"  Clothed with the Sun
appears just after John records the events that happen during the "Blowing of the Trumpets or the call to judgement,
just as it was outlined in Lev. for them

Quote
    ~{Rev.11:1}~
    And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying,
     Rise, and measure [judge] the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Judgement for the world comes later
    2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not;
     for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
    ..........................
Now John sees into the Temple in Heaven, this Temple
    ~{Hebrews  12:22}~
    But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,
and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,[/list]


Now John tells us about This Woman
    And there appeared a great wonder in heaven;
    a woman
clothed with the sun,
    Words of Christ in Matt,
    "
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father."

[/list]a woman clothed with the sun,
and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon,
having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered,
for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:
and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
[/list]
Who is or who are; this child caught up unto the Throne ????
John tells us
    ~{Rev 3:13}~
    The church of Laodiceans
    "21
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,
even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."[/list]

and Rule with"A Rod of Iorn",
these guys, according to John
    24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira,
    as many as have not this doctrine,
    and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak;
    I will put upon you none other burden.
    25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
    26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end,
to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron;
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.[/list]

 
So who are these people that will set with him in his throne,
and rule with this
Rod of Iorn ??????

The Prophet tells us
Quote
    ~{Ps.24:3}~
Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD?
or who shall stand in his holy place
?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart;
who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 This is the generation of them that seek him,
that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.

~{Ps.22:30}~
A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born,
that he hath done this.


~{Ps.78:6}~
That the generation to come might know them,
even the children which should be born;
who should arise and declare them to their children:

~{Ps.102:18}~
When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.
17 He will regard the prayer of the destitute, and not despise their prayer.
18 This shall be written for the generation to come:
and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD.
[/list]
This generation, shall be born under much travail, and here is the Travail
Same chapter, David continues
    19 For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary;
    from heaven did the LORD behold the earth;
    20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner;
    to loose those
that are appointed to death;[/list]
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

you can read all about those "that are appointed to death;"
in Johns Rev. ch 13 and the death decree, and also here
    ~{Psalms 94:20}~
    20 Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee,
    which frameth mischief
by a law?
21 They gather themselves together against the soul of the righteous,
and condemn the innocent blood.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.[/list][/quote]


Quote

    ~{Micah 5:2}~
     But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah,
    yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel;
     whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
[but they rejected Christ]
3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth:[/list]
and here is where he gave them up
Christ said his last day in the Temple
    ~{Matt.23:39}~
    O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee,
    how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings,
and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth,
till ye shall say
,
Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple
[/list]



The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.




The woman is not Mary in any shape form nor fashion,
but is this woman, given up, or over
"until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth:"
Micah 5:2

Mark@FL

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2007, 06:31:10 PM »
Here is my thinking about the child of the Divine Women. I am not trying to get off topic but the Divine Women's child gives us clues about who she is. When Christ went into the desert to fast for 40 days, near the end he was tempted by Satan. One of the tempations was if he bowed down to Satan he would be given the kingdoms of the earth.

Jesus was a Jew and knew the type of Messiah that everyone was expecting. Had he made the deal, he would have become what the Jews  anticipated the Messiah to be. This sounds like blasphemy, but if you think about it, Satan, at that time, was still able to come and go into Heaven. He was God's left hand man in charge of the earth. Satan was in charge of the kingdoms of the earth for God. That is why there was so much strife. By avoiding that tempation, Jesus essentially cut out the middleman and in doing so, connected himself directly to God his father. He became something better than the anticipated Messiah. The Jews couldn't accept the New Messiah because they were expecting power, honor and glory, which Jesus could have gotten if he had struck a deal with Satan the middleman.

If you look in Revelation (second coming) the person who appears looks more like the Jewish version the Messiah. Someone who is tough and willing to wage war and kick butt. This traditional image of the second coming of Christ never sat well with me, because Christ had already superseded this possiblity, to become someone more advanced. Why would he regress back to an Old Testament Messiah, if he had already superseded that early state of the Messiah?

What made more sense, was the son of the Divine women was going to be the one who would forfill the old Messiah. He displaces Satan, when he is caught up to the throne. There is no longer a place for Satan in heaven. He lost his seat near God. The Child takes Satan's place at the left hand of God. But unlike Satan, who likes to freelance, Faithful and True, although  given the heavenly and earthly power of Satan, is very faithful and true to God. His old testament and earthy style will allow him to gather the tribes of Isreal and the Christians, as one family. By having faithful and true act as middleman, Christ does not have to regress himself backwards into an Old Testament God. His sensible slave will get things ready for him, so he can retain his advanced state.

Here is another question I asked myself, who is the father of the Divine Women's child? Since Satan was trying to kill him, that would leave Satan out. Being brought to the throne of God, is something very special. This would suggest that he is a son of God. He may not be the son of Christ, since he is not a lamb but acts more like the God of the Old testament, sort of a chip off the old block.

Where the Divine Woman' son appears to enter the picture is during the reign of the two Annoited ones. The Saints will love them, because he will purify them so they can make offerings in righteousness (he is like refiners fire and fullers's soap). But most of the world will hate him because he is tough. The two annoited one will be killed after their testimony, but will be resurrected and return to heaven. Faithful and true will have sort have a Pentecost to offer limited help. But with Faithful and true physcially gone, humanity will regress, allowing the Anti-Christ to come to power in the confusion. Faithful and true will return, at the very end, with the armies of Heaven. Once he cleans house, Christ will take over for his reign of peace.

st_michael

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2007, 08:42:45 PM »
Quote from: Mark@FL;39217
By avoiding that tempation, Jesus essentially cut out the middleman and in doing so, connected himself directly to God his father. He became something better than the anticipated Messiah. The Jews couldn't accept the New Messiah because they were expecting power, honor and glory, which Jesus could have gotten if he had struck a deal with Satan the middleman.

This make it as Jesus is not God...  The Christian understanding for 2,000 years is that Jesus is God!

St Thomas said it best...  "my Lord [Jesus] and my God [Jesus]."

Mark@FL

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2007, 12:37:12 PM »
I agree with you, but that quote is after the temptation in the desert, when Jesus came to terms with who he was and not what tradition expected him to be.

Getting back to the Divine Women, she has a crown of twelve stars, she is clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet. One thing about these three symbols, is that they all tell time. We have the twelve months of the year, the daily solar cycle and the monthly moon cycle, all incorporated into the Divine Woman. In other words, she is not connected to a physical place but is connected to a time. She is sort of the sign of the times.

The twelve stars are also equated to the twelve tribes of Isreal. Being a crown, the twelve tribes are symbolic of her cultural domaine. In other words, the crown of a king, for example, contains the symbols of a particular culture. It is a center piece, coming to a focus in the mind of  the king; it is what unifies and lead culture. The twelve tribes, although scattered in modern times, is the culture of the Divine Women. In her crown they are all one. The paradox of being scattered but connected as one is resolved not with location but with the concept of time. It is like a family that is scattered all over the world, but which retains is connection to each other, so at any time, they are still one inspite of separation.

The symbol of being clothed with the sun with the moon under her feet tells us about which time in history. The sun allows one to see the clarity of day. While the moon is connected to the night when dim lighting makes it hard to discern reality. One will see shadows under the dim light of the moon. With the moon under her feet, symbolizes a time of clear perception that is not mixed with fuzzy perception (unconscious or subjective projections) stemming from the moon. The mystery of Revelations shows that the moon is not yet under her feet, since clarity of day is stilled overlapped with the light of the moon, allowing a wide range of dimly lit interpretations.

There is also another layer of symbolism. If you look at the symbolism of being clothed with the sun, this can be interpretted as sun worship. What comes to mind is Pharoah. If you think about it, Pharoah represented the peak of Satan's reign as the Lord of the earth. Pharoah wasn't directly connected to God (had Satan as middleman) but he was nevertheless advanced enough for God to give Pharoah the twelve tribes of Isreal to evolve via slavery. When school was over and the time was right, it was time for liberation.

What these three layers, together, bring to my mind are modern times and the advance of science. Science allows us to see the truth in nature, with the clarity of the sun. But this rational clarity has had the affect of detatching many from God, since logical explanations can rationalize away religion (faith is hard to prove scietifically). But in the same token, like the original twelve tribes under Pharoah, this step is is a necessary step, until the time is right for liberation. The moon under her feet but clothed with the sun, indicates an important transition that where the light of science shines on religion. Some of the children have become aethiests. To bring this part of the flock back requires using science to help remove the residual moon affects from religion. In this way the worse critics will become the strongest advocates.

One layer of the moon (subjectivity) still overlapping the sun (scientific objectivity) is Creationism. In other words, nobody literally assumes the Divine Woman is standing on the moon. She is not assumed to be huge with a crown big enough to hold millions of people (twelve tribes) at a time when the sun is so close to the moon that she is enveloped by the sun's perimeter fire. It is not meant to be taken literally but symbolically. The same is true for Genesis. Genesis needs to be interpretted symbolically in a way that is consistent with the sunlight of science. That will allow science to be used to help advance the cause of religion. Moses benefited by living in the house of Pharaoh using that position to advance the cause of God.

The compromise that I came up with, that does both bible symbolism and science justice is that "let there by light" was connected to the birth of modern human consciousness. It is not cooincidence that the rise of civilization and Genesis coincide in scientific time. The human mind recieved a divine spark allowing humanity to change in a very fundamental way, leading to modern humanity. Adam was sort of a divine mutation (to use genetic science) with the selective advantage needed to move humanity toward a more progressive path.

The archeological evidence (science sun) of million year old prehumans is not a rational problem with this orientation. These million year old prehumans did not have the Divine spark needed to form civilization even though they looked like humans. They were only superficially related. What got my mind going in this direction was when Cain was driven away by God for killing Abel. Cain said" whomever shall come upon me shall kill me" . Who were these whomevers if only Adam, Eve and Cain were on the earth at that time? It was the prehumans from the last Ice Age, without the divine spark. God gave Cain a sign for protection, allowing modern Cain to live among the prehumans in peace.

Modern times is symbolic of the time of Pharoah where the tribes are under a sun-God connected to scientific reason. They are, nevertheless,   learning to become more advanced. Most modern people have one foot in each world, science (rational reality) and religion (faith), with various degrees. This situation is analogous to the seventh Angel with one foot on the land and one foot on the sea, ready to roar.  

Revelations 10: and he cried out with a loud voice as when a lion roars, and when he cried out the seven peals of thunder uttered their voices. This is the fourth time symbolism associated with one week. It may be connected to the seven days of creation or Genesis becoming the seed for change.  

Daniel 7: 4 The first was like a Lion and had the wings of an eagle. I kept looking until its wings were clipped and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man and a human mind was given to it.
 
The lion with the wings of an eagle, the seventh angel's roar like a lion,  and flight of the Divine Women with wings of an eagle symbolism all are talking about the same thing; female lion with wings of an eagle becomes a man. This shows the stressful transition from emotional to rational as the spirit of the times changes. The Divine Women is what shall be (in heaven). Her being stressed and nurtured and eventually lifted up from her crippled position on the ground, shows what shall be, beginning to  take hold in reality. Her male child will appear after the process has taken root.

st_michael

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2007, 12:57:16 AM »
Quote from: Mark@FL;39223
I agree with you, but that quote is after the temptation in the desert, when Jesus came to terms with who he was and not what tradition expected him to be.


This implies Jesus did not know he was God and only until a certain point in his earthly walk did he submit to his calling as the Lamb of God...  If this is the case I see problems in that it appears God did not know himself... Even the infant John the baptist while still in the womb of his mother knew who God was when he leaped in the womb of Elizabeth when Jesus approached Elizabeth and John while he (Jesus) was still in the womb of Mother Mary.

the Council of Constantinople II, AD 553, canon 12
   If anyone defends the impious Theodore of Mopsuestia, who said one was God the Word, and another the Christ...who gradually...was improved by the progress of His works...let him be anathema. (D 224)

Patriarch Eulogius of Alexandria (AD 580 to 607)
   "Christ's humanity which was taken up in the hypostasis of the inaccessible and substantial wisdom of Christ cannot be ignorant of anything of the past or of the future."

Ludwig Ott's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma
   there are three ways in which Christ possessed human knowledge:
   1) Immediate vision of God (scientia beata)
2) Infused knowledge (scientia infusa)
3) Acquired or experimental knowledge (scientia acquisita, scientia experimentalis)
Christ's soul possessed the immediate vision of God from the first moment of its existence (Ott, pg 162), and Christ's human knowledge was free from positive ignorance and from error. (Ott, pg. 165).

Pope Pius XII (AD 1939-58)
   "... that knowledge which is called vision, He possesses in such fullness that in breadth and clarity it far exceeds the Beatific Vision of all the saints in Heaven ... ... He enjoyed [such knowledge of vision] from the time when He was received into the womb of the mother of God" (Mystici Corporis (1943), Ott, pg 163).

Buzzard

  • Guest
Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2007, 01:55:59 AM »
Mich, Da Pope, or the Council of Constantinople,
  doesn't have the power nor authority to anathema. anyone

so what do you suggest we do with the "heritic"

Buzzard

  • Guest
Re: Typology 101
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2007, 02:43:41 AM »
Quote from: st_michael;39164


   1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Using Typology does not forshadow all one does the other will do...  Paul understood Adam as a type of Christ when he clearly teaches Jesus as the "last Adam".  This does not limit Jesus to commit the same sin's as Adam because adam was a type of Christ... just as in your thought that David is a type of Christ and therefore Jesus will commit adultry...  

The events, people and things in the old are understood to be types and are only a shadow of heavenly realities...
OK, then Eve was the wife [bride] of Adam  not his mother

Since Eve was The Bride, then the woman has to be the Bride of the New Adam, and that ain't Mary,
but Christ [the new Adam] does have a bride,


Quote from: st_michael;39164


A type will always point to a specific person, event or thing...  Mary is the new Ark...  Mary is the new Eve... Mary is the Queen Mother...  many types are in the Old Testament... however Mary is what the types are pointing towards... just as the Flood is a type of Baptism... the Red Sea is a type of Baptism.  Adam is a type of Christ...  

There are many types to study... but Typology is used in Holy Scripture itself and therefore can be used by his Church to understand Holy Scripture...
you would do well; Mich, too heed the words of Christ,
spoken thru the Apostle Paul
    "Prove all things"
    and
    "don't go beyond what is written"

and No where is it "written" that Eve was a virgin
Quote from: st_michael;39164

   St. Justin Martyr (130-165 AD)
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01283.htm

He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to your word.' " Luke 1:38 And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.


and Justin Martyr would have done well if he had heeded the words of Christ,
spoken thru the Apostle Paul also
    "Prove all things"
    and
    "don't go beyond what is written"

and No where is it "written" that Eve was a virgin

#2:
If the woman is Mary and the seed of the woman is Christ
Then "who" is the seed of Satan

If the "SEED" is a child born unto Mary,
then a child "SEED" must also have to be born of Satan

are you telling us that Satan is a woman ??????

"Prove all things", Mich, and "don't go beyond what is written"
in other words Keep personal opinions out of it


Mich,
you need to let Christ tell you "WHO" the two [2] SEEDS are
and he did in Matt ch 13
    Seed of Satan =
Tares
Seed of the woman = Children of the Kingdom[/list]
"Thou must be born Again"

Born unto this Woman, the Bride of Christ
    ~{Galations 4:26}~
    But Jerusalem which is above is free,
    which is
the mother of us all.[/list] and that ain't Mary,

for she too needed "to be born again"
that makes her, our "Sister" not our mother,
 


.Mich,
you need to let Christ tell you "WHO" the two [2] SEEDS are,
not Justin Martyr

st_michael

  • Guest
Re: Typology 101
« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2007, 09:40:14 AM »
Quote from: Buzzard;39233
OK, then Eve was the wife [bride] of Adam  not his mother

Since Eve was The Bride, then the woman has to be the Bride of the New Adam, and that ain't Mary,
but Christ [the new Adam] does have a bride,


Hello Buzz,

I understand your line of thinking here... However, I do not agree...  

We (You and I) are both brothers in Christ as well as the Bride of Christ and also we are Christ (When we claim to be the Body of Christ)...  

How does your line of thinking wrestle with all three truths about ourselves in relation to Christ?

The Catholic understanding does not limit the "Woman" in Revelation to one understand... it agrees that the woman is the Church... the woman is Israel...  the woman is Mary...  In the mystery of God the woman can and "is" many things...
« Last Edit: April 12, 2007, 05:28:37 PM by st_michael »

 

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