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Author Topic: Who is this woman in Revelation?  (Read 11513 times)

Mark@FL

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2007, 06:48:51 PM »
Nobody knows what was going on in the mind of Jesus. But the fact remains, God sent Jesus into the desert to fast. God knew this would put his human body into a weakened state, where the human mind can play games and where impulse can get the better of willpower. God then allows Satan to tempt him in this weakned state. Jesus holds firm, sort of a new Adam not eating the apple from the knowledge of good and evil, i.e., those things considered good/important (power, wealth, glory, etc.,) at that time in history. Weakness, poverty, humility, etc. was considered  bad back then by comparison as history shows. Satan could have saved his breath if knew Jesus was 100% convinced of his true role in the divine drama. He took his shot because he thought it had a shot.

Besides all the kingdoms of the world, Satan also tempted Jesus when he alluded to Jesus being able to take his seat of honor in the temple. Satan  even tries to show Jesus that nothing could harm him from that position.  This was another thing that was anticipated for the old Messiah. This may be blasphemy, but with Satan offering these temptiing things, it may have been what made Jesus solidify the correct path he needed to take. Do the opposite of Satan's direction. After that Jesus was totally focused without waiver except for one moment of concern before he died on the cross.

The Seventh Angel sounding is important. If you look at the Christian Church it has gone through transitions since the beginning. Peter was to build the church after the death of Christ. This was the first cycle. When Rome accepted Christianity to form the Holy Roman Empire this was the second cycle. The invasion of the northern barbarians and the fall of Rome leading to the Dark Ages was the third cycle. The Middle Ages and the setting up of the Divine Kingdoms with the divine right of kings, was the fourth cycle. The division of the Catholic church via Martin Luthur and the Age of Enlightment was the fifith cycle. The six cycle is modern times where the Christian Church has divided further and further into its smallest demonination, i.e., local church, where a minister teaches what he sees fit to his flock. The seven angel anticipates the seventh cycle of Christianity. The biblical anticipation of gathering the twelve tribes is implicit of Judeo-Christianity swinging the other way, where everyone begins to looks for things in common with each other, so they can become one Church again.  

The Divine Women is the Church and she is Isreal. Her Revelations symbolism is an image of this unification that occurs in the seventh cycle. The moon under her feet implies all the subjectivity that has divided the church in the sixth cycle is gone. But her flight and her training apart from the dragon shows that it is a process that will take time before it finally is forfilled in reality. Forums like this are a good sign because it shows reconciliation is starting to occur.

I am going to fast forward a little and talk about the two Annointed Ones. If you look at the symbolism of Revelations, this set is not very popular. Most people like the Four Horsemen, the Divine Women, the coming of Christ, the Anti-christ, etc., The reason this is so is because the two Annoited ones is very ambiguous. On the one hand, the "two Annoited Ones", are lamps with golden oil, etc., showing them to be divine and of God. But being able to bring plagues and torment those who dwell on earth seems sort of evil. One way to reconcile this, has to do with truth. If one is seeking truth they will become a blessing. If one is content with half truth, illusions, deceptions and lies, they will be a curse and source of continuous torment. Polititians would consider them evil because they would expose their nakedness underneath their shiny surface.

The symbolism associated with mystery Babylon, are connected to those, i.e., aspects of culture, won't be too pleased with the two annointed ones. The two annointed one's don't kill or even physically hurt anyone but they bring everyone's eyes to the truth with tough love. Sometimes the truth is hard to swallow. When they are killed almost everyone is happy, except for those who had hungered for the truth.  

Jesus was a sacrifice for sin. The two Annoited Ones will be a sacrifice for guilt. This is very subtle. If we sin, we can pray for forgiveness of our sin. Inspite of being forgiven, many people retain guilt after being forgiven. For example, if you were using a wrench and it slipped, such that your hand struck someone, you might feel really bad, especially if you hurt a person you love. The other person may realize the situation and say it was an accident don't worry about it. Even though one has been forgiven and it should end there, some people will feel lingering regret or guilt that will haunt them beyond sincere forgiveness. The training by the two Annoited ones and the guilt sacrifice will change this. Unforturneately, the intent of the guilt sacrifice will become distorted.

Mark@FL

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2007, 07:16:31 PM »
The subjectivity that defines the difference between the symbol of the Divine Woman and what is, is connected to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This symbol is connected to belief systems that polarize knowledge into good-evil, right-wrong, beneficial-detremental, etc. The most obvious is connected to moral law.

In other words, if one goes through a logic line to determine the usefulness of a moral law, the train of thought looks similar to a tree. You start with your premise, which is the trunk of the tree. This will branch into different trains of logic used to support this premise. The fruit are the final laws based on this tree of thought. If the tree is based on a polarization of good-evil, right-wrong, etc. it a tree of knowledge of good and evil. If you look through history, many standards of morality have evolved and changed with time, implying they were never eternal like God. They were temporal like humans. Thou shall not kill has withstood the test of time and is therefore eternal. Although in the past and present, thou shall kill has had its own tree of knowledge of good and evil to suit the need of humans. This is not of God. A tree of knowledge of good and evil can be used both ways.  

The problem with any of these types of polarizied logic trees is that once we eat of it, the tree of life will be taken away from us (Genesis). The tree of life is not a one size fits all, herding mentality. It is more of a case-by-case orientation, where the logic tree is created, with the help of the Spirit, in a way that is most appropriate to the situation. The old debate of whether a poor man stealing is a sin will violate the tree of knowledge, but it will not violate the tree of life.  

As way of an example of the contrast, consider Jay-walking. Most big cities will have a logic tree of knowledge of good and evil that makes jay-walking evil. This is a half good law, in that it protects those without common sense from getting injured. But on the other hand, there are those who have a combination of common sense, coordination and timing, allowing them to safely cross at the appropriate times. They do not need this law for their safety. Yet the one size fits all nature, or herd nature of the tree of knowledge will forbid them from following their inner voice and their God given ability to chose and act properly. If the street was clear and there was no hazard, those who follow the law, might even turn self righteous if they saw such a person make their move. They may even flag down a cop to make sure he is punished for his violation. In other words, the herd instint associated with the tree of knowledge will often attempt to force feed everyone the apple.  

Part of this dynamics is practical. If the less than coordinate see someone safely cross, they may decide to follow, with negative consequences. To protect such as these from themselves, the higher common demoninator is often required to get with the program. But the moment they eat of this tree they shall die, or their God given ability will be sacrificed and will atrophy so they can become more in line with the herd. Their connection to the tree of life is cut off.

In current times, the latest branch to sprout from the tree of knowledge is called political correctness. This is producing a lot of apples and the herd seems hungry for more. It is a type of Idol worship, where words are given a magical power to hurt or sooth. Even though they are Idols most will bow down to this these gods. If you try to resist you will be forced fed the apple by the herd. This branch has it own logic line and forms a nicely shaped branch, but it fruit is increasing sensitivity and self righteousness instead of bringing people together in love (you shall surely die).

Romans 7:16-17 But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the law, confessing it is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but the sin that indwells me.

There is actually a physical explanation for this affect, connected to how the brain works. When memory is created there is usually an emotional valence added to the memory. The result is that memories with similar emotional valence will tend to cluster. For example, when we feel hunger, our memories are not focused on scripture, but on food and the actions needs to satisfy the hunger. Hunger will use a cluster of food association memories. In fact, breakfast, brunch, lunch ,dinner and snacks will also have their own distinct cluster. Orange juice will appear as an alternative for breakfast while a soda may appear for lunch, etc.

That being said, the brain separates the memories from the law of good and evil  it into one set with positive valence and the other set will negative valence. The negative valence is usually fear. It could be fear of punishment, hell, Devil, damnation, etc.. This memory consolidation can take on a life of its own. Whether one calles it Satan or whether Satan makes use of this data consolidation, it has its own dynamics which is what leads to the impulses behind sin. The more data, via law of good and evil, one places in this grid, the more autonomy it has.

Sort of the way hunger feeling fans out into different times of the days, the memory-fear consolidation connecte to law of good and evil will fan out into different types of transgressions, each with its own cluster of memory derived from various laws of good and evil. For example, look at the alcohol prohibition (tree of knowledge of of good and evil. There was a problem of sorts at the beginning. But once the law added a new range of evil memories, the amount of violation esculated, with each esculation adding more law and more evil data. By minimizing law of good and evil, one reduce the number of possible ways the fear fan out is able to express itself. When it was repealed the worse of the impulsiveness disappeared as the memories faded.

What Christ and Paul taught was that law needed to be reduced down to a base set. Love God and love your neighbor. With this set there is no data to program fear. When the fear consolidation fans out there is little data for it to use to create impulse. At that point, the impulse from the Holy Spirit can be separated out. Thats the tree of life. As long as the tree of knowledge adds to the fear memory, it is difficult to distinquish between the Holy Spirit and the impulse fan of fear. Under those conditions, one will have a hard time being able to tell the difference, which is why it is taken away. Knowledge of good and evil creates a problem that requires its continued useage. The tree of life is cut off due to this problem.

The way I see it, until the time she who is labor has born a child, Satan has not yet been displaced and is still part of Heaven. This means that the tree of knowledge is still valid for evolving humanity. The darkness of the fear consolidation allows light to be seen (grace).

Romans 5:20-21 And law (tree of knowledge) came in that transgression might abound; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.

But when Satan is displaced by the Divine Women's child, Satan's tree of knowledge of good and evil will no longer carry the same weight with God. It becomes earthy instead of Divine. It sort is deevolutionary at that point. The tree of life is about to be revealed but can only be seen when the fear-memory association density decreases. The cultural distinctions between the members of Christianity is a layer of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This one says this ritual is good another says this idea is good, etc.. The implied not-good side of these cultural laws is feeding the fear maintaining division. Don't worry about morality issues yet, focus on those cultural things that divide due to cultural knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong, etc..  

Cor 1 9:20-22 And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those under the law, as under the law, though not myself under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, I became as without law, not being without the law of God, but under the law of Christ, that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, that I may save some. Break down the cultural walls of right and wrong that divide the twelve tribes. The Messenger will take care of the rest.

Mark@FL

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2007, 05:29:49 PM »
If you look at the tree of knowledge it bears one type of fruit, which is the apple. This fruit may have been chosen because of its red color and because it sort of looks like a heart. The apple symbol has an emotional-instinctive connection. In general, the tree of knowledge of good and evil, offers a system of ideas, laws and rules, that govern instinctive-emotional impulse. This systems allows humans to live together in culture.

If you compare this to the tree of life, the tree of life bears twelve types of fruit. The bible doesn't say what these fruits are, but it is reasonable to assume that the apple may be one of those fruits, since some laws of good and evil have be given to us by God. Besides the best apples, the tree of life also has eleven other fruits that can be used to unify people within culture.

One possible fruit that comes to mind is music. For example, a national anthem will unify a culture. While the Olympic anthem will unify young and old from all over the world, as one big family. Music, at times, can achieve the same ideal, which knowledge of good and evil trives toward.  

Another fruit might be comedy. If you have a room of people from various cultures, there may be a little tension between various elements with each group clinging together. But if they are told a joke that makes them all laugh, the walls comes down. It is hard to fear or hate each other when you laugh together.

Another fruit that unifies us could be science. Although it can get very complicated, pictures of space or of micro-organisms gives everyone the sense of awe at the beauty of God creation. God put humans in charge of the earth. To do a good job we need to know how it works. For example, if you had to chose two people to take care of your car, the one with the most knowledge of how it works would be your first choice. Science allows all humans to see God's reality beyond our sensors. We are no longer limited by only our human shell.  

Literature may be one of the twelve fruits. Good literature tells about the human condition and teaches us how similar the human experience is. We are not that different deep down. Many aspects of our humanity was the same a thousands years ago, and will be the same a thousand years from now. Literature helps us to see this and brings us together by showing how we are the same.  

Sports could one of the fruits. God gives some people innate ability within their earthly shell. Many of these people sacrifice and work very hard to improve God's work, as though they are trying to be an extension of his hand. If look at the Olympics they are all one big family before and after the competition. During competition, this stress adds some extra drive  allowing the competitors to push the human envelop to new heights. The gymnists who gets a perfect score gives us all a feeling of collective awe. Almost like the hand of God is stirring them for all of us to see. That awe brings us to together as one.  

If you look at the tree of life, it is drinking water from the river of life. This water is not stagnant, but it is flowing and renewing itself. The possible fruits discussed above are in a similar type of flux constantly improving yet affecting us in a siimlar way. The leaves of the tree of life are for healing the nations. The leaves are the part of the tree that collects  sunshine to make the fruit possible. Being solar collectors, the leaves, are objective things that bear good fruit. These are those things that are time proven, i.e., eternal, and have perpetually helped heal/impove the human situation. This train of though just came to me so I haven't had time to think of other fruits. Feel free to add more; time proven, in a flux of  change and bring us together.

If the apple is one of the fruits of the tree of life, which I believe it is, this would mean that the amount of knowledge of good and evil needs to be reduced to about roughly 1/12 of the current amount. This way it will not crowd out the rest of the fruit. There portion is useful knowledge of good and evil, that has withstood the test of time. The rest are man made or synthetic apples that crowd out the rest of the fruit.

Let's see if we can trim some of the synthetic apples so we can leave the best branch, i.e., a branch the tree of life could like. Lets start with political correctness. This movement has its heart in the right place but its approach is not leading to the desired result. It seems to be increasing sensitivity requiring more and more rules. But who decides what is good and evil? As far as I know the bible does not have a hit list of words, so I will assume synthetic apples.  

The goal appears to be, change language so it is less offensive. But one person's offensive language is not the same for everybody. For example, if a well read person went into a group of nonread people, when they use their $10 words, many people are offended because they feel like that fancy talker is looking down on them. Does that mean that all $10 words needs to be eliminated from culture so we don't offend people who don't know what they mean? The sensitivity police will say no, because their cultural way benefits by this. They only wish to remove the language of the poor common man.

If one goes into a blue color bar, the F-word is used frequently. To many of them this is a very flexible word. By using a mixture of context and emotional valance, the F-word can be made to mean a wide range of things. They may not have the $10 words to do the same thing but it works sort of the same way. Is it right for an intellectual to insist the blue color worker no longer use their cultural language? If so, if a blue color person walked into a wine-cheese party given for intellectuals, does he have the right to make them stop using b$10 words if it makes him uncomforatable.? The intellectuals see themselves above us all and deem themselves the caretakers of language. Why not take a majority vote?

If you are standing in a line and the people around you are speaking a different language, many people feel uncomfortable. You don't know whether they are just talking, talking about you, swearing in another language (or using $10 words). If a different language is making you  uncomfortable, it that enough reason to outlaw more than one language? The goal is to make everyone feel good, right? The process is a double standard, with an elite group playing God. Eve ate of the tree of knowledge so she could be like God, telling everyone what is right and wrong to say.

Besides profanity (which can be fun at times ) and $10 words (which can very useful for subtle meaning), and foreign language (which is part of human communication), there are other ways to bring offense without even using any of these. For example, a hostess has a dinner party for a group of guests and does a marginal job with the meal. Someone may say, "this is the best food I have had in a long time" (while they turn their eyes or wink at their friend). These "nice" words are not part of any of the three lists and by themselves are very nice and polite, but a backstabbing gesture, which can be denied, is added to the blend. Does that mean backstabbiing is good as long as it does not use words from the list? Even good words can be used to hurt people. Should we all remain silent? Is the goal of political correctness to avoid honesty and to use only suble backstabbing with nice words?

Here is how I look at it, it is better to direct our efforts at human hyper sensitivity than to censor language. Children used to be taught "sticks and stones can break my bones but names can never hurt me". In modern times, many adults have less control over their sensitivity than the average children of the past. That is not good. That is the root of the problem. Political correctness is medicine with harmful side affects.  

The current approach is sort of like dealing with seasonal depression due to low light in the winter. One way to deal with this problem, is to build the technology can shift the earth's axis so the global lighting is not seasonal. The other solution is give such people a bright light so they can help themselves. We need to deal with hypersensitivity, so language will no longer  a problem. This allows the perpetuation of free speach. The current approach is to try to tip the world off its axis to cure the problem. People are trying to censor free speech and change the cultural world in a way that is regressive (before free speech).

Back in the 1960's the character Archie Bunker used to say every form of racial, ethnic and cultural slur, but in a way that was funny. Most people realizd his character was actually a nice guy, with a gruff exterior. This humor broke down the wall. It lowered the sensitivity because it replaced the emotional valence of words from hate-fear to laughter. It used a different fruit, instead of the apple, to deal with this problem. It did a much better job leading to positive results with no punishment.

By about the 1970's the Feminists began to reintroduce hypersensitivity feeding everyone a bushel of apples. Now the tree is crowded with people eating and feeding apples to each other. The situation is at the point where everyone now must eat apples or be punished. If the process was working, I would say fine, maybe it is a good apple. But the fruit is making everyone sick in the head/heart. Sick enough were punishment is  metered for a non-crime. I believe laughter is one type of medicine. Idol worship is another angle that might help the flock with rehab. This religion gives power to an idol of bad breath, which, I am told has the power to sooth or hurt. Should I bow and worship? These are false gods. We need to forgive the high priests and priestess because their hearts are in the right place. They just lack common sense, which is not a crime.

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2007, 07:08:41 PM »
Quote from: Mark@FL;39272
If you look at the tree of knowledge it bears one type of fruit, which is the apple. This fruit may have been chosen because of its red color and because it sort of looks like a heart. The apple symbol has an emotional-instinctive connection.
Can you please show me in the bible or in any other theological reading where the "apple" is the forbidden fruit that Adam and Eve ate? Pray tell? :eek:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Mark@FL

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2007, 07:36:52 PM »
You are correct. I was merely staying in line with evolving tradition. The red apple is the color of the red dragon (satan). The shape is like a heart indicating emotion or the subjectivity associated with most law. But inside the law is white apple flesh, connected to the light in the darkness that law can help create. But like the white flesh of an apple, when it is exposed to the air (spirit) it turns brown.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil or laws of good evil, right wrong, etc., will create two set of memories that are polarized. The brain will organize memories with similar emotional valence. Because law of good and evil is polarized, half of the law will become associated with positive emotional valence, i.e., (heaven, peace, paradise, rest, good etc.). While the other half with the negative emotional valence becomes associated with the fearful side of the law (punishment, death, hell, devil, etc.) These two data organizations will combine with the red dragon and lamb (software) and can take on unconscious dynamics, much like an instinct.

One event from a person’s past can unconsciously influence a person for the rest of their life. Drinking of the same well (tree of knowledge) year after year, starting in childhood, will create an accumulative unconscious affect. The result is similar to the above, but with more diversity of impulse. It is a two edged sword in that the positive data consolidation can impulse one toward grace, while the negative side can impulse one toward sin. Both receive their power from the same laws, which is the paradox. There are two sets of symbols that tell us about the nature of the data consolidation associated with the negative and positive side of law.

Revelations 5:6; I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

Revelations 12:3; There was sign seen in heaven. Behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven crowns.


The number seven, which the two symbols share in common, is indicative of the seven aspects of the negative and positive data consolidations associated with laws of good and evil. The lamb is associated with Christ, who is also the second Adam, which, in turn, is a return to paradise. This was a time when humans had natural instinct apart from the tree of knowledge. The lamb looking like it has been slain, but still alive, shows the natural instinct of paradise, although still alive, has been wounded. The consolidation associated with the good side of law gives us a glimpse of the lamb, but because law will also created an opposition, the lamb is wounded.

The symbol of the red dragon, indirectly, tells us about the nature of the lamb. Its color red was chosen to equate it to the red apple of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Its seven heads are connected to the seven deadly sins, while its ten horns are connected to the Ten Commandments The seven eyes of the lamb are spiritual light in the darkness so we can see). The connection to the earth indicates a connection to natural instinct. For example, if you look at the deadly sin gluttony, this is a derivative of the hunger instinct. There is nothing wrong with being hungry. There is nothing wrong with a little extra hunger for your favorite food. Gluttony is different than natural hunger; gluttony is hunger with an overlapping connection to the fear-side data consolidation of law. It creates a hunger dynamics with a desperation that is more appropriate to fear/hunger than to natural hunger.

If you go through the seven deadly sins, each has a natural instinct deep down that is pushed beyond its natural boundary because of the fear memory consolidation associated with the evil side of law. For example, if we look at pride, it is rooted in self-esteem. There is nothing wrong with feeling good about one’s self. But if we add fear to self-esteem, it becomes a desperate need to feel good about oneself, leading to an inflated sense of self, which is associated with pride. The lamb is connected to the seven natural instincts (paradise) at the bottom of the seven deadly sins. The red dragon adds fear to each, to created exaggerated extrapolations. The eyes allow us to see the natural.

Revelations 17:3 He carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness. I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored animal, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.

To add to the confusion there is another layer of memory consolidation that is on top of the red dragon (closer to the ego), which is an advanced version of the red dragon, created by imperfect human laws. This is the scarlet beast. If you look at the seven deadly sins these are based on fear added to instinct. The scarlet beast, which is also red, is an advanced version of the same thing, making the line fuzzy. For example, the lamb’s natural hunger dynamics is natural hunger; the red dragon’s fear consolidation pushes hunger into gluttony, while the scarlet beast takes gluttony to another level.  For example, the affect of the scarlet beast software might be analogous to someone who hoards food. Such a person might stockpile more food than is needed to satisfy their impulsive gluttony. Gluttony is no longer an impulse but has become a planned impulse that can affect others. This situation might result in others unable to satisfy natural hunger.

But since laws of good and evil are two sided, hoarding food for gluttony has its countering good side, such as stockpiling food for the winter. What the scarlet beast does is cloud the line between a future extrapolation of the seven deadly sins and a future extrapolation of a real fear connected to natural instinct, which can help humans plan for the future. Stockpiling food for the winter is good, but hoarding food for gluttony can now be explained as stockpiling and might then appear good. For example, in ancient times the community might stockpile food. The king might, make a law, to serve his gluttony, which allows him to take more than his share, resulting in many going hungry. He justifies this by telling everyone they are now becoming gluttons for being hungry all the time. This human law makes the glutton king good and a hungry peasant a sinner.

Revelations 17:4-6 the woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her fornication. And on her forehead a name was written, "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her, I wondered with great amazement.

(continued in next post)

Mark@FL

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2007, 07:38:04 PM »
Mystery Babylon, which rides on top of the scarlet beast (software), adds further confusion making the line even fuzzier. She is very impressive on the surface (looks appealing). The symbolism of Mystery Babylon has an economic connection, as inferred by her glitter. As an example, many businesses are connected to the food industries. In the process of creating wealth and jobs, people are getting fatter. This part of the economy uses marketing to induce demand, but in the process, induces the fruits of gluttony within some people. This side affect is not seen as gluttony, since it is acceptable social behavior that is helping the economy by creating jobs. Natural hunger would be counter-productive to this aspect of the economy. It needs the line to shift, toward the fear consolidation to increase desire and hunger. I am not singling this aspect of the economy out but used it to show how the line can be moved the wrong way when economic pressure and marketing induce individuals to participate in social acceptability.    

Mystery Babylon is not so much connected to economics, per se, but to the affect of predominant supply side economics. Most people don’t know what they want. The supply side produces new products-serves and helps make many of these choices for us. To induce demand for new products, marketing will try to amplify natural instincts such as desire, self-esteem, hunger, etc., moving the line. You cannot improve the situation with additional laws of good and evil. This will compound the problem by added to more data to the fear consolidation. The way it is done is by using demand side economics, to create a proper counter balance. People may not know what they want, but they have a good idea of what they need. There is where demand side economic comes in. Supply side is useful can help culture define its wants, but it has conflicting interests when it defines what we need.

For example, the medical industry is currently driven by supply side economics. The medical industry is not only creating a lot of useful goods and services (needs) but also generates lot of goods and services to simply increase revenue (wants). Supply side marketing in medicine tells people what they need/want using two opposing motivations at the same time, i.e., health and economics.  Demand side economics is collective consumer demand calling upon the free market to give them what they need, without all the extras. One way this is done is for the demand side (average consumers) to be allowed to become part of buying groups, where their collective buying power is leveraged to buy what they need below wholesale. The average person has no leverage and has to buy at retail, which gets inflated with middlemen due to supply side need/want. With a collective buying organization, one is a shareholder in a big business, able to make the market compete for your billion dollar buying power. Medications are very cheap this way. It is nothing personal against the supply side; it is just good business sense in a free market.

People still have wants, without knowing what they want; this is the territory, best served by supply side economics. The demand side buying groups should not buy non-needed items; this would mess up the economy. With basic needs cheaper for the average consumer, there is more money available for the remainder of the supply side wants. Medical needs should be driven by demand side economics. This is not social medicine but demand side economics.

One of the most prominent features of Babylon is her gold cup filled with pollution. The color gold shows a positive tool. The cup is cultural knowledge and tradition, while the pollution inside is connected to the seedy side of knowledge and tradition. For example, marketing and advertising is good in the sense of creating awareness of new products (gold cup) but it will also employ manipulation to amplify instincts to help increase market share (pollution). The cultural media is cut from the same cloth. The entire industry is very useful in helping to define and evolve culture. But on the other hand, it is also market driven moving the line to sell products.

News is usually disproportionately full of doom-gloom and outrage. These emotions are in line with the needs of the red dragon (fear side of law). The reason this is used is because these emotions are the easiest way to get people to stay tuned in, waiting for more information. Too much good news and people would be content and spend more time doing other things. It is good economic sense to use bad news. Another tactic is using half the data to promote fear or a political agenda. In science, one needs to use all the data to gain an objective picture. But if you just use the bad data, one can reason with this data, but one will never be able to draw an objective conclusion. The result is endless analysis and debate that clouds the line but keeps people watching.  

The antidote is not more law or censor. This would make the situation worse. The media is the national watchdog. But there is no watchdog for the watchdog, allowing the media to both help and hurt culture. For example, most foreigners have a bad attitude toward America due to our own media. Most Americans are nice people, among the most generous and faithful on earth, but nobody will even see that, because it doesn’t sell product as well. What needs to form is a watchdog for the watchdog, with power of the press. It should be designed to play by the same rules the media plays by, applying these rules to the watchdog. If the watchdog wishes to be biased, that is how they will be judged. If they wish to be balanced and edify, so it will be done to them. Once they get a taste of their own medicine they will get well. The golden cup will have cleaner water. Babylon is burnt but it doesn’t say the cup is melted down.      

The symbolism of Babylon being drunk with the blood of the Saints is implicit of another social layer that shifts the line. The symbolism is connected to moral self-righteousness. In other words, if the line in the sand were indeed correct, self-righteousness would be coming from the Saints (God) so to speak.  But because of the confusion created by three above layers, a fuzzy line is often being preached by the self-righteous wounding the lamb. This line is analogous to what a drunk sees, i.e., fuzziness. Yet self-righteous often acts as though they believe their subjective line is valid, justifying anger. Often but not always, there is a hidden agenda connected to some form of self-interest, motivated by the two lower layers. Babylon, via human subjectivity, can also add confusion to where the flock and shepherd can remain unconscious of their efforts hurting the lamb.  

The Divine Women with the moon under her feet is a state where the subjective confusion is removed . The seven lamp stands around the throne of God are the seven churches. This is the intermediate between the lamb and ego similar to the way the Babylon/Scarlet beast is the intermediate to the Red Dragon. The churches offer a countering affect in culture that softens Babylon/Scarlet Beast. But at the same time, since the flock and the churches are also a part of culture, Babylon/Scarlet Beast can have an influence on the seven churches. The affects are often subtle and complicated. Simply reducing human laws and fear moves the line in the right direction.

As for me, this will be my last post, at least for a while. The creative process is starting to affect my mind and my body. I need to shut it off until I can rebalance myself.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2007, 09:58:54 PM »
Mark,

We appreciate your creative process.  However, not to many of us have the time to read through posts that are pages long.  Perhaps you can apply your considerable education toward being a little more concise?  :D
John O


Offline Quasar

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2007, 04:01:48 PM »
Quote from: me again;39068
So far, this thread has said that the woman in Revelation 12:1 is:
  • Israel
  • The Christian Church
  • Israel
However, Revelation 12:4 and 12:13 says that she gave birth to a man-child.  The Christian church didn't give birth to Jesus, so how can the woman be the church?  

I can see how the woman would be symbolic of Israel to a greater degree and to the virgin Mary to a much lesser degree.  

Opinions?



Q:  How come you dodged the Biblical facts that were in the very first post in this thread?  Let's have another look with a few additions:


Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?

Rev.12:1-2 is the sign of the Son of Man and the woman represents the virgin Mary who is pregnant with Jesus.

What is the sign of the Son of Man?

The sign of the Son of Man referred to by Jesus in Mt.24:30 is explained from what was written in Rev,12:1-2, called the "Wonderous sign in heaven.'

The Great and Wonderous Sign -

It is also called the gospel in the sky. (Ps.89:5) This wonder takes place once every year at a very specific time. When Jesus was born. [The Star of Bethlehem was also involved in the astronomical phenomenon, but so far, only a one time event, and is another subject].

The woman represents the virgin Mary with the sun amidst her body, representing her pregnancy. The crescent moon at her feet represents the specific time frame this event takes place.  The twelve star crown she wears represent the twelve tribes of Israel.

The only time of year this event can be witnessed, is in late September/early October, as seen from the middle east, at or around the Jewish Holy Convocation - feast and festival - of Rosh Hashanah. Their New Year - which they call 'a year of new beginnings.' It is also the last fall feast and festival of their year which they call the 'feast of trumpets.' They also believe it marks the day God began His creation, and the very same anniversary in which Jesus was born, also.

The woman's body is in the Constellation of Virgo (The virgin). She represents the virgin Mary, of Israel, and has a crown of twelve stars on her head - representing the twelve tribes of Israel. The sun is amid her body, signifying her pregnancy.

Her head is about 10% in the previous Constellation Leo (The Lion - of Judah) and the crescent moon is at her feet, about 10% into the Constellation Libra (The scales of righteousness and judgement).

With all the heavenly bodies in motion, this event can take place only between a time frame from 7:15 to 7:45 P.M., a 30 minute window.

So when Jesus talks about His return at His Second Advent in Mt.24:30, it will be at that specific time of year - and time frame!

For the full treatment on this outstanding story, read Dr. Ernest L. Martin, PhD., book, "The Star That Astonished The World," who was himself an astronomer.

Which also reveals what the Star of Bethlehem was, from the years of studies by scientists and astronomers working together on it, for a number of years, retrogressing the heavenly bodies by computer. [Click on "The Birth of Christ," under Books].

The star of Bethlehem was a conjunction of the king planet Jupiter and the queen planet Venus, together with the king star Regulas.  The birth date of Jesus as calculated by Dr. Martin in this book, is September 11, 3 B.C.

The community of Astromers and many scientist have accepted these studies and the findings that came out of them as the closest to authenticity as anything yet determined about conditions surrounding the birth of Jesus.  As a result, many Planetariums throughout the country set up their displays as described above during the Christmas season for the public to view it, including the Griffith Planetarium in Los Angeles, CA.

http://www.askelm.com

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Ken1Burton

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #53 on: May 31, 2007, 12:44:18 AM »
Mary is the Queen of Heaven?

Then that must be Mary in Prophecy:

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Would not that put, calling Mary the Queen of Heaven as making Mary a “OTHER GOD”

That could explain Mary being seen on earth on occasion, SHE WAS THROWN OUT.

Maybe a lesson can be learned?:

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Mary is blessed, But wherefore has she become Devine in many’s eyes. Has doctrine of men made Mary a “OTHER GOD?”

Acts 12:21 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.
22 And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.
23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

The people tried to kiss up to Herod, But God did not go after the people, But after Herod for allowing it. Try not to get Mary in too much trouble. This whole business with Mary might not be setting too well with God.

We are under grace, But does that mean we should do that which might be an insult to God?

The Nation of Israel is, and always will be the Woman in Revelation Chapter 12.

Ken

Monaco

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2007, 02:44:31 PM »
St Micheal,
 It should not be what any church teaches but what Jesus Himself says. We are not to rely on any man or church for our salvation, but Christ. We have to use our bibles only as for what truth is, not man's version of it. Man is fallable, The Lord isn't. We have to take the bible as a whole. We cannot take a couple of scripture and take it out of context and make it into what we want. There are always more scripture to clarify the first. We have to take every scripture on any given subject and study it to get the right meaning out of it. And sometimes scripture is symbolic and sometimes it's literal. Other scripture always determines, which is which.

God Bless you all and may truth rein upon you always,
Monaco

Offline Quasar

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2007, 07:39:50 AM »
Quote from: Ken1Burton;39650
Mary is the Queen of Heaven?

Then that must be Mary in Prophecy:

Jeremiah 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Would not that put, calling Mary the Queen of Heaven as making Mary a “OTHER GOD”

That could explain Mary being seen on earth on occasion, SHE WAS THROWN OUT.

Maybe a lesson can be learned?:

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Mary is blessed, But wherefore has she become Devine in many’s eyes. Has doctrine of men made Mary a “OTHER GOD?”

Acts 12:21 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.
22 And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.
23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

The people tried to kiss up to Herod, But God did not go after the people, But after Herod for allowing it. Try not to get Mary in too much trouble. This whole business with Mary might not be setting too well with God.

We are under grace, But does that mean we should do that which might be an insult to God?

The Nation of Israel is, and always will be the Woman in Revelation Chapter 12.

Ken




Not in accordance with the Scriptures, Ken:

The Roman writer Apuleius' "Transformations of Lucius" gives us an understanding of Isis in the first century. The following paragraph is particularly significant.

"You see me here, Lucius, in answer to your prayer. I am nature, the universal Mother, mistress of all the elements, primordial child of time, sovereign of all things spiritual, queen of the dead, queen also of the immortals, the single manifestation of all gods and goddesses that are, my nod governs the shining heights of Heavens, the wholesome sea breezes. though I am worshipped in many aspects, known by countless names. . . some know me as Juno, some as Bellona . . . the Egyptians who excel in ancient learning and worship call me by my true name..Queen Isis."

Queen of Heaven is a natural title for goddesses central to many religions of antiquity. In Sumer Inanna was hailed as "Queen of Heaven" in the 3rd millennium BCE. In Akkad to the north, she was worshipped later as Ishtar. In the Sumerian Descent of Inanna, when Inanna is challenged at the outermost gates of the underworld, she replies

'I am Inanna, Queen of Heaven, On my way to the East.' Her cult was deeply embedded in Mesopotamia and among the Canaanites to the west. In the early 6th Century BCE, the neighbors of the Israelites still worshipped the Queen of Heaven, and the temptation for the Hebrews to follow her cult was apparently hard to resist. Jeremiah, writing ca. 590-580,

Jeremiah 7:18
The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger.

Jeremiah 7:17-19 (in Context) Jeremiah 7 (Whole Chapter)

Jeremiah 44:17
We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm.

Jeremiah 44:16-18 (in Context) Jeremiah 44 (Whole Chapter) Jeremiah 44:18
But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine."

Jeremiah 44:17-19 (in Context) Jeremiah 44 (Whole Chapter)

Jeremiah 44:19
The women added, "When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes like her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?"

Jeremiah 44:18-20 (in Context) Jeremiah 44 (Whole Chapter)

Jeremiah 44:25
This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: You and your wives have shown by your actions what you promised when you said, 'We will certainly carry out the vows we made to burn incense and pour out drink offerings to the Queen of Heaven.' "Go ahead then, do what you promised! Keep your vows!
Jeremiah 44:24-26 (in Context) Jeremiah 44 (Whole Chapter)

The Catholic dogma, in contrast to the Scriptures:  

Queen of Heaven (Latin Regina Caeli) is one of a number of titles used particularly in the Roman Catholic Church for Mary, the mother of Jesus. The title is with reference to the Catholic dogma that at the end of her earthly life, Mary was bodily assumed into heaven, and is there honoured as Queen, for the sake of her Son. This follows the biblical precedent of ancient Israel, whose crown, it is held in Christianity, has passed to Jesus.

Luke 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David.

In the Old Testament kingdoms of Israel and Judah, the King might, like David or Solomon, have many wives. The title of Queen, therefore went not to any wife of the king, but to the mother of the king. 1 Kings 2 17-21, 1 Kings 15:13, Jeremiah 13:18. The Queen Mother was known in Hebrew as the gebirah. Since Jesus is heavenly king, of the lineage of David and Solomon, Mary becomes Queen Mother.

The Roman Catholic church also sees Mary crowned as queen in heaven in Revelation 12, verses 1-


Blessings,

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Rockroller

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #56 on: August 11, 2011, 02:22:21 AM »
After reading most of the comments and answers regarding this question, I am scratching my head in amazement that most of the answers are so silly and totally wrong.  First of all, the Woman of Rev. 12 was in heaven and neither Israel, the church or Mary were ever in heaven.  Second, this Woman gave birth to Jesus AND gives birth to those who are born again who keep the commandments and words of Jesus in the last generation.  Therefore it can't be Mary, nor could it be Israel or the 'church' as the church can't give birth to itself.  Besides, Jesus is coming for His bride, the church and He would NOT be wanting to 'marry' His own 'mother'.

The ONLY correct answer to this question is that this Woman is the Holy Spirit.  After all, the word "Spirit" found in the OT is always a female noun.

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Re: Who is this woman in Revelation?
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2013, 01:51:49 PM »
My apology for the length of this post, but the facts cannot be told unless it is lengthy in this case.

Astronomy and the Birth of Jesus: Scripturally connected by Mt.24:30 and Rev.12:1-2

The essential factor in interpreting the symbol of Revelation 12:1–5 is the identification of the woman. What is John signifying by mentioning her? This much is certain: the woman in the first three verses is featured as being in heaven and both the Sun and the Moon are in association with her. After the dragon casts down a third of the stars of heaven (Revelation 12:4), the woman is then found on earth (verses 6 and 14). But the important factor is the birth of the man-child and the Woman’s relationship with the heavenly signs while she is symbolically in heaven. (The first three verses of Revelation 12 shows the Sun clothing her, the Moon under her feet and the Twelve Stars on her head).

The “birth” of the Messiah is associated with this heavenly spectacle. Since some noted heavenly bodies are a part of the picture, it could well be that John intended the woman to represent a constellation that the two primary luminaries transverse, and that she was a part of the zodiacal system which gives headship to the signs (the Twelve Stars were a “crown” upon her head). Recall that interpreting astronomical signs dominated the thinking of most people in the 1st century, whether the people were Jews or Gentiles. Indeed, the word “sign” used by the author of the Book of Revelation to describe this celestial display was the same one used by the ancients to denote the zodiacal constellations. 17

This is made clearer when one looks closely at the text. Since the Sun and Moon are amidst or in line with the body of this woman, she could be, in a symbolic way, a constellation located within the normal paths of the Sun and Moon. The only sign of a woman which exists along the ecliptic (the track of the Sun in its journey through the stars) is that of Virgo the Virgin. She occupies, in body form, a space of about 50 degrees along the ecliptic. The head of the woman actually bridges some 10 degrees into the previous sign of Leo and her feet overlap about 10 degrees into the following sign of Libra, the Scales. In the period of Jesus’ birth, the Sun entered in its annual course through the heavens into the head position of the woman about August 13, and exited from her feet about October 2. But the apostle John saw the scene when the Sun was “clothing” or “adorning” the woman. This surely indicates that the position of the Sun in the vision was located somewhere mid-bodied to the woman, between the neck and the knees. The Sun could hardly be said to clothe her if it were situated in her face or near her feet.

The Sun Clothed the Woman

The only time in the year that the Sun could be in a position to “clothe” the celestial woman called Virgo (that is, to be mid-bodied to her, in the region where a pregnant woman carries a child) is when the Sun is located between about 150 and 170 degrees along the ecliptic. This “clothing” of the woman by the Sun occurs for a 20-day period each year. This 20 degree spread could indicate the general time when Jesus was born. In 3 B.C.E., the Sun would have entered this celestial region about August 27 and exited from it about September 15. If John in the Book of Revelation is associating the birth of Jesus with the period when the Sun was mid-bodied to this woman called Virgo (and this is no doubt what he means), then Jesus would have to be born within that 20-day period. From the point of view of the Magi who were astrologers, this would have been the only logical sign under which the Jewish Messiah might be born, especially if He was to be born of a virgin. Even today, astrologers recognize that the sign of Virgo is the one which has reference to a messianic world ruler to be born from a virgin. 18

This heavenly woman called Virgo is normally depicted as a virgin holding in her right hand a green branch and in her left hand a sprig of grain. In the Hebrew Zodiac, she at first (in the time of David) denoted Ruth who was gleaning in the fields of Boaz. She then later became the Virgin when the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 was given in the time of King Hezekiah and the prophet Isaiah. This Virgin held in her left hand a sprig of grain. This was precisely where the bright star called Spica is found. Indeed, the chief star of the constellation Virgo is Spica.

Bullinger, in his book The Witness of the Stars (pp. 29–34), said that the word “Spica” has, through the Arabic, the meaning “the branch” and that it symbolically refers to Jesus who was prophetically called “the Branch” in Zechariah 3:8 and 6:12. And Bullinger (and Seiss in his book The Gospel in the Stars) maintains that this sign of Virgo designates the heavenly witness for the birth of the Messiah (Jesus). They say that Virgo should actually begin the zodiacal signs which give the story of the Messiah. This may be. The apostle John may have given the same indication as far as the first full sign of the zodiac is concerned. He depicted the woman of Revelation as having a crown of Twelve Stars on her head.

This could well show that the woman (Virgo) is the constellation of headship for all the twelve signs. The “head” position of Virgo is located within the last ten degrees of Leo. It was in this very region where the story of the career of the Messiah would begin that Bullinger and Seiss referred to. Thus, the story of Jesus and his mission on earth, as related by these heavenly symbols, should logically begin with his birth from a virgin and conclude with him being crowned king in the final sign of Leo the Lion (with its chief star being Regulus ― the King star). This is no doubt what the apostle John was trying to show through the symbols found in Revelation 12.

The birth of this child in Revelation 12 (whom John identified with Jesus) should have occurred while the Sun was “clothing” the woman, when the Sun was mid-bodied to Virgo. This period of time in 3 B.C.E. covered 20 days (August 27 to September 15). If Jesus were born within that 20-day period, it would fit most remarkably with the testimony of Luke (relative to the birth of John the Baptist and the eighth course of Abijah). Indeed, the chronological indications associated with the priestly course of Abijah place Jesus’ birth exactly within this period. But there is a way to arrive at a much closer time for Jesus’ birth than a simple 20-day period. The position of the Moon in John’s vision actually pinpoints the nativity to within a day ― even to within a period of an hour and a half (within 90 minutes) on that day. This may appear an absurd assessment on the surface, but it is quite possible.

The key is the Moon. The apostle said it was located “under her feet.” What does the word “under” signify in this case? Does it mean the woman of the vision was standing on the Moon when John observed it or does it mean her feet were positioned slightly above the Moon? John does not tell us. This, however, is not of major consequence in using the location of the Moon to answer our question because it would only involve the difference of a degree or two. The Moon travels about 12 degrees a day in its course through the heavens. This motion of one or two degrees by the Moon represents on earth a period of only two to four hours. This difference is no problem in determining the time of Jesus’ birth. What is vital, however, is that this shows the Moon as a New Moon.

The Precise Position of the Moon is Important

Now note this point. Since the feet of Virgo the Virgin represent the last 7 degrees of the constellation (in the time of Jesus this would have been between about 180 and 187 degrees along the ecliptic), the Moon has to be positioned somewhere under that 7 degree arc to satisfy the description of Revelation 12. But the Moon also has to be in that exact location when the Sun is mid-bodied to Virgo. In the year 3 B.C.E., these two factors came to precise agreement for about an hour and a half, as observed from Palestine or Patmos, in the twilight period of September 11th The relationship began about 6:15 p.m. (sunset), and lasted until around 7:45 p.m. (moonset). This is the only day in the whole year that the astronomical phenomenon described in the twelfth chapter of Revelation could take place.

This also shows one other important point. The Moon was in crescent phase. It was a New Moon day, the start of a new lunar month. (See plates one and two below which show early depictions of the celestial scene of Revelation 12:1–3 and how the Moon is shown to be in its crescent phase.)

Modern Man and Astronomical Motions

While ordinary people in modern times who are not professional astronomers have little knowledge of the solar, lunar, planetary and stellar motions, the people from the 1st century up to the Industrial Revolution were well accustomed to them. Even people of little education were generally knowledgeable of the main motions of the astronomical bodies — even more than most college-educated people today. When anyone of early times read Revelation 12:1–3, an astronomical relationship was realized at once. There was no doubt that a New Moon display was being shown to them. And when the woman of the sign was interpreted as Virgo the Virgin, and with the Sun mid-bodied to the Virgin, they clearly saw a New Moon day occurring sometime in late summer.

The apostle John said this heavenly relationship occurred at the time of Jesus’ birth. And in 3 B.C.E. this exact combination of celestial factors happened just after sunset only on one day of the year. It was on September 11th. It could not have occurred at any other time of the year. Indeed, even one day before ― on September 10 ― the Moon would have been located above the Virgin’s feet with the crescent not visible, while one day farther ― on September 12 ― the Moon had moved too far beyond the feet of the Virgin, at least 25 diameters of the Moon east of her feet. Thus, only one day applies. That day was just after sunset on September 11th, 3 B.C.E.

The Exact Day of Jesus’ Birth

The apostle John is presenting to his readers something of profound significance in a symbolic way. Revelation 12:1–3 shows a New Moon day that could only be observed from earth just after sunset, and the day was September 11th. This fits well with Luke’s description of the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem. Recall that,

“there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over the flock by night ... and the angel said ... unto you is born this day [which began at sundown] in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.”

Luke 2:8–11

Jesus was born in early evening, and Revelation 12 shows it was a New Moon day.

What New Moon could this have been? The answer is most amazing. It is almost too amazing! September 11, 3 B.C.E. was Tishri One on the Jewish calendar. To Jewish people this would have been a very profound occasion indeed. Tishri One is none other than the Jewish New Year’s day (Rosh ha-Shanah, or as the Bible calls it, The Day of Trumpets ― Leviticus 23:23–26). It was an important annual holy day of the Jews (but not one of the three annual festivals that required all Palestinian Jews to be in Jerusalem).

What a significant day for the appearance of the Messiah to arrive on earth from the Jewish point of view! And remarkably, no other day of the year could astronomically fit Revelation 12:1–3. The apostle John is certainly showing forth an astronomical sign which answers precisely with the Jewish New Year Day. John would have realized the significance of this astronomical scene that he was describing.

In the next chapter I will show the symbolic and religious meaning of this New Year’s day as interpreted by the Jews (and consequently by the apostles and early Christians) as it relates to the Messiah and his kingship. The information may provide a better understanding why the early apostles of the 1st century, and many Jews and Gentiles, so quickly came to accept Jesus as the Messiah.

Whatever the case, the historical evidence supports the nativity of Jesus in 3 B.C.E., at the beginning of a Roman census, and (if we use the astronomical indications of the Book of Revelation) his birth would have occurred just after sundown on September 11th, on Rosh ha-Shanah, the Day of Trumpets — the Jewish New Year Day for governmental affairs. There could hardly have been a better day in the ecclesiastical calendar of the Jews to introduce the Messiah to the world from a Jewish point of view; and no doubt this is what the apostle John clearly intended to show by the sign he recorded in Revelation 12.

By Ernest L. Martin, PhD.

See also:  http://www.tccsa.tc/articles/star_susan_carroll.pdf


Edit by Quasar: IMO, the twelve star crown the woman is wearing represents the twelve tribes of Israel, not the zodiacal signs.
The Constellations she is in tell us exactly who she is: 80% in Virgo, the virgin, as Mary, who is pregnant andin pain, ready to give birth to Jesus. with her head 10% into the Constellation of Leo, the Lion of Judah, revealing which tribe Jesus came from, and 10% into the Constellation of Lybra, the scales of righteousness and justice, a clear representation of Jesus.
 
Which is what Jesus was referring to in Mt.24:30, when He referred to the sign of the Son of Man appearing, at His second coming, in Setember of the year, at the time of the Autumnal Equinox while His resurrection was around or at the time of the Vernal equinox. "Time, time and the dividing of time." Dan.7:25 KJV.
 

Quasar
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 01:53:49 PM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

 

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The Crusader

December 23, 2013, 09:38:53 AM
JUST A THINK ABOUT IT: Will you embrace the full meaning of Christmas? Jesus didn't die just so you could go to heaven. He came to give you life - His life; an abundant life free from guilt, condemnation, and slavery to both sins and religion. He came to bring a grace revolution to the world and tha

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