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Author Topic: Are people elected to Hell?  (Read 11104 times)

Offline me again

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Re: Are people elected to Hell?
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2007, 08:45:34 AM »
Quote from: Cop4Christ;39391
Snip...
Why bother if they are not elect? I am sorry you Hyper Calvinist have a huge problem, but I would be asking you too much to say you are not better than the others.
I agree with that.  The non-elect don't even need to bother with trying to go to heaven because their fate is sealed.  :eek:

Conversely, many who believe that they are elect -- are not.  That is demonstrated in the Lord's parable where the sheep and the goats are divided -- and many of the goats said to Him: "Did we not cast out demons in Your name...", but He simply tells them to "get lost" because He never knew them!!!

God "makes a way" for the elect.  He opens their hearts and their ears.  It's a supernatural event that cannot happen, unless the Lord prompts it.  Conversely, the non-elect have ears to hear, but they can never hear (they can never hear to the point that they repent, lest they should be saved).  If God has selected you, then He will open up your mind and your heart.  If God has not selected you, then your heart and mind can never be open to his salvation, even if you are a church member.  :eek:

I am not sure what God's criteria is, but I know that it's perfect.  There are many people in hell who have a bone to pick with Him.  Many more are to follow in their footsteps.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

kevingaily

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Re: Are people elected to Hell?
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2007, 09:20:59 AM »
Quote from: me again;39401
I agree with that.  The non-elect don't even need to bother with trying to go to heaven because their fate is sealed.  :eek:

Conversely, many who believe that they are elect -- are not.  That is demonstrated in the Lord's parable where the sheep and the goats are divided -- and many of the goats said to Him: "Did we not cast out demons in Your name...", but He simply tells them to "get lost" because He never knew them!!!

God "makes a way" for the elect.  He opens their hearts and their ears.  It's a supernatural event that cannot happen, unless the Lord prompts it.  Conversely, the non-elect have ears to hear, but they can never hear (they can never hear to the point that they repent, lest they should be saved).  If God has selected you, then He will open up your mind and your heart.  If God has not selected you, then your heart and mind can never be open to his salvation, even if you are a church member.  :eek:

I am not sure what God's criteria is, but I know that it's perfect.  There are many people in hell who have a bone to pick with Him.  Many more are to follow in their footsteps.

See, I think the Armenian view is that God's criteria is what He sees in their heart.  Based upon that proginosko(foreknowledge) he made his decision before it happened. Yet it must unravel in the due time(the process).

It is an endless debate. You claim God doesn't use free will and the heart of man in his sovereign decisions, then out of the same mouth say you don't know what the criteria is... lol

So, if you don't know yourself, then to debate other's thoughts on the matter seems pointless. How do you know that God did not use the criteria aforementioned? Obviously, God is just and loves mercy and lovingkindness. See my sig. So we must presume that since he loves those things he would be benevolent. The problem in the ultra calvinist view(not all calvinists, just a certain population of them) is they offer no decision or reasoning and come across as being cold and hard like God threw darts to choose, and said oh, well, to the ones he didn't pick. However, that doesn't line up with Biblical attributes of a perfect God.

I too believe that noone comes unless drawn. My argument is that those who are drawn and get saved were picked by God for a reason. I, based upon reading about God's character in Scripture, think it is something he sees in a person. God's sovereignty includes our freewill, not simply despite it. Noah is a good example. God choose to save Noah. It was not just to make a point, but because He saw something in Noah worth saving.

Technically, I am not Armenian nor Calvinist. So you all may think I'm wack, hehe :D  I have been blessed to have attended both types of churches for many years, and base my decisions on considering what all had to say... not just towing the "party" line.

Anyway, just my thoughts. I'm supprised I even posted on this thread as I hate this endless debating on an issue that only God can fully answer - and that only when we see Him face to face. So I digress.   :amen2: :dance:

Offline Tom

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Re: Are people elected to Hell?
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2007, 11:21:21 AM »
Quote from: kevingaily;39400
I didn't know the folks in Jerusalem were gentiles. I thought they were God's chosen people, ie. Jewish?




Sorry Kevin that was two seperate thoughts, didn't mean to confuse you.

Not all of the Jews were chosen either. He saved only a remnant of them.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline me again

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Re: Are people elected to Hell?
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2007, 11:37:53 AM »
Quote from: kevingaily;39403
See, I think the Armenian view is that God's criteria is what He sees in their heart.  Based upon that proginosko(foreknowledge) he made his decision before it happened. Yet it must unravel in the due time(the process).
I agree with that, although I didn't know that that is what Armenianism is.

Quote from: kevingaily;39403
It is an endless debate. You claim God doesn't use free will and the heart of man in his sovereign decisions, then out of the same mouth say you don't know what the criteria is... lol
IMO God manipulates the free will of people to accomplish his goals.  He sets circumstances and events into place that forces people to make specific decisions that will accomplish His will.  We are putty in His hands.  Ultimately, we make our own choices (free will), but those choices were directed by God because he manipulated our circumstances to cause us to choose.  Yeaa, it sounds like doublespeak, I know.  :snicker:

Quote from: kevingaily;39403
The problem in the ultra calvinist view(not all calvinists, just a certain population of them) is they offer no decision or reasoning and come across as being cold and hard like God threw darts to choose, and said oh, well, to the ones he didn't pick. However, that doesn't line up with Biblical attributes of a perfect God.
God knows our hearts and He won't allow certain people into His kingdom because of their evil hearts.  Therefore, he sets circumstances into motion that magnify the condition of their hearts and it becomes abundantly clear to Him, as well as to them (once they're in hell) why He did not select them.  I guess.

Quote from: kevingaily;39403
I too believe that noone comes unless drawn. My argument is that those who are drawn and get saved were picked by God for a reason. I, based upon reading about God's character in Scripture, think it is something he sees in a person. God's sovereignty includes our freewill, not simply despite it. Noah is a good example. God choose to save Noah. It was not just to make a point, but because He saw something in Noah worth saving.
Yep, I agree with that.  The operative word here is "God sees..." and "God chooses..."
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

kevingaily

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Re: Are people elected to Hell?
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2007, 12:16:24 PM »
See, you are not as different as you think. Noone says God doesn't choose. We know no man or woman comes to God all by themselves. The question was the criteria of whom and why. I believe it is based upon our hearts which He knew before time began.  

As for manipulation of free will, well, we need to define what we're talking about. We all sin daily, this is not God's will. So clearly a lot of things are not according to God's will. This ability to sin is an act of free will. Yes? We know God does not tempt folks as it says in James. That is our own lusts. Secondly, God reproved Cain by saying:

Quote
Genesis 4:5-7 (New International Version)

5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.

 6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

Bold parts are my doing for drawing relevance.

Clearly Cain was offered a choice, and God was willing to accept him if he made the right choices.  I don't think it is much different today. God knew Cain would choose evil, but it was not forced on him. Cain made his own stupid decision. It cost him everything, so it seems. Yet God, in His wisdom and foreknowledge, allowed Cain to fall and to walk in disobedience. He knew Cain would do it, but the choice was Cain's.

So I think God's plan works in spite of our free will, not the subjugation of it per se. Yes, I'm sure God does indeed manipulate events, but it's like splitting hairs. It can lead to heresy either way if we dig too deep based upon our own thoughts and musings.

We can barely understand ourselves, yet we attempt to know the depth of God's thoughts, lol These are tough things to figure out. I don't claim to have all the answers. I'm merely speculating based upon what I see in Scripture. It is, however, admittedly speculation.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 02:21:28 PM by kevingaily »

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Are people elected to Hell?
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2007, 02:09:22 PM »
Quote from: me again;39405
I agree with that, although I didn't know that that is what Armenianism is.[/i]


I've only said that every time this discussion has come up Ed!  :D

Arminius taught that God's soveriegn choice is based from his foreknowelege of them that would not resist His Spirit's wooing them to salvation (in other words, choose Christ).  God still gets the glory, as unregenerant man could never make that choice without the Holy Spirit's empowerment.
John O


Offline John Oscar

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Re: Are people elected to Hell?
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2007, 02:12:45 PM »
Quote from: me again;39405
IMO God manipulates the free will of people to accomplish his goals.  He sets circumstances and events into place that forces people to make specific decisions that will accomplish His will.  We are putty in His hands.  Ultimately, we make our own choices (free will), but those choices were directed by God because he manipulated our circumstances to cause us to choose.  Yeaa, it sounds like doublespeak, I know.  :snicker:


That's okay...you're a Calvinist...double speak is your natural language :brew:   (just kidding, please don't be offended.....ducks and covers)

If God is causing people to sin, does that not make Him guilty then?  

This flies against so many scriptures describing the nature of God, that I can't believe that anyone with a cursory knowlege of the bible could believe that.....
John O


Cop4Christ

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Re: Are people elected to Hell?
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2007, 03:36:10 PM »
What about Psalm 96 when was this written?  Does He mean all people are only the elect?
1 Sing to the LORD a new song;
sing to the LORD, all the earth.

2 Sing to the LORD, praise his name;
proclaim his salvation day after day.

3 Declare his glory among the nations,
his marvelous deeds among all peoples.

4 For great is the LORD and most worthy of praise;
he is to be feared above all gods.

5 For all the gods of the nations are idols,
but the LORD made the heavens

Offline me again

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Re: Are people elected to Hell?
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2007, 07:45:53 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;39409
Quote from: me again;39405
I agree with that, although I didn't know that that is what Armenianism is.[/i]
I've only said that every time this discussion has come up Ed!  :D

Arminius taught that God's soveriegn choice is based from his foreknowelege of them that would not resist His Spirit's wooing them to salvation (in other words, choose Christ).  God still gets the glory, as unregenerant man could never make that choice without the Holy Spirit's empowerment.
Catholicism (I believe) also believes in that, based upon their church teachings from the "church fathers."  I only point that out because it crossed my mind.  If Armenianism is as you say it is, then maybe I've been in left field.  I honestly dunno at this point.  :eek:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

kevingaily

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Re: Are people elected to Hell?
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2007, 08:43:59 PM »
Quote from: me again;39418
Catholicism (I believe) also believes in that, based upon their church teachings from the "church fathers."  I only point that out because it crossed my mind.  If Armenianism is as you say it is, then maybe I've been in left field.  I honestly dunno at this point.  :eek:

Honestly Me again, We are not that far different from each other. I think at church and bible school they set up these straw man arguments and proceed to take pot shots at the "others" and it leaves us with distrust and contempt. That's why the last seven years have found me attending calvinistic churches to understand both sides. I was raised catholic then went to armenian churches until seven years ago. All I see is suspicion, mistrust, and misinformation from all sides. It smells of Satan to me, but I digress.

While on some things we may never agree, with this type of open dialog, we can sure mend a lot of fences and bring some unity back to the body of Christ. The key is an honest attempt to understand each other, and an openness to a deeper understanding of God's Word without feeling the need to tow the line per se. :wub:

st_michael

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Re: Are people elected to Hell?
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2007, 10:56:20 PM »
Quote from: kevingaily;39420
Honestly Me again, We are not that far different from each other...I was raised catholic


Raised Catholic?  

I always knew you had a good foundation on things... just did not know why until now..  :D

I will pray for you Kevin,  You have a good head and heart...  

Peace to you!

Offline me again

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Re: Are people elected to Hell?
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2007, 12:20:38 PM »
Quote from: kevingaily;39420
Honestly Me again, We are not that far different from each other. I think at church and bible school they set up these straw man arguments and proceed to take pot shots at the "others" and it leaves us with distrust and contempt. That's why the last seven years have found me attending calvinistic churches to understand both sides. I was raised catholic then went to armenian churches until seven years ago. All I see is suspicion, mistrust, and misinformation from all sides. It smells of Satan to me, but I digress.

While on some things we may never agree, with this type of open dialog, we can sure mend a lot of fences and bring some unity back to the body of Christ. The key is an honest attempt to understand each other, and an openness to a deeper understanding of God's Word without feeling the need to tow the line per se. :wub:
Wow, thje exact same thought has crossed my mind, of late. :eek:    [ sarcism on ]
  My way is the right way!!!  My doctrinal standpoint is the only correct standpoint!!! Anyone who disagrees with me has to be wrong because... uhhhhh... my opinion is right!!!!!
[ / sarcism off ] I run into that a lot in denominational circles -- and in religious circles as well.  While I acknowledge that there is only one truth, I also acknowledge that no has a lock on all truths (yet).  As a result, sometimes I think that we (the Body of Christ) are being judged based on the love we show one another, regardless of our doctrinal beliefs.  :eek:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

kevingaily

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Re: Are people elected to Hell?
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2007, 12:13:57 PM »
Quote from: st_michael;39422
Raised Catholic?  

I always knew you had a good foundation on things... just did not know why until now..  :D

I will pray for you Kevin,  You have a good head and heart...  

Peace to you!


:D

Eight years of Catechism, first communion and confirmation in the Catholic church. But I had no saving experience with God, and was very hateful of God in general for things going on in my life. An old Methodist woman shared Christ with me some years later and it finally clicked. That's when I experienced God in a tangible way and it changed my life. I went to a non-denominational church for a year or so before the military. Then for the next 13-14 years I went to a few Armenian churches, AOG and COG denominations. My college(during the 13-14 yrs.) was inter-denominational, but Armenian in doctrine. Then the last 7 years I attended a few Calvinist churches one Baptist, S. Baptist and a non-denom one.

The experience(s) has left me more well rounded, I believe, not confused. To hear the differences from all(mostly) sides has helped me to see the big picture, and not just adopt one sided tactics to support a single side. I desire the full truth of Scripture, unhindered by slants and presuppositions. :orange:

st_michael

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Re: Are people elected to Hell?
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2007, 12:33:10 AM »
Quote from: kevingaily;39441

Eight years of Catechism, first communion and confirmation in the Catholic church. But I had no saving experience with God, and was very hateful of God in general for things going on in my life. An old Methodist woman shared Christ with me some years later and it finally clicked. That's when I experienced God in a tangible way and it changed my life.


Hello Kevin,

Why did you not return to the Catholic Church after your "saving experience with God"? Did you not even consider the Catholic Church?

   When my "saving experience with God" happened I did not place blame on the Catholic Church but myself.  

I believe people are more open for that "saving experience with God" if they were raised with the knowledge of Jesus.  

As a boy I did not feel stimulated with any church stuff...  Was that the fault of the Catholic Church?  Does that invalidate the Faith the Church professes... or was that my fault for not being a good student and not open to the education the Church tried to give this spoiled little runt of a boy who only cared for his next soccer or baseball game.  

During my young years I ignored God and the many times he was pushing at me.  When I decided to investigate Christianity God placed me in a position to be open for his work to grow within me.  I never thought of myself as not being a Christian because I always knew Jesus as God.  My problem was that I did not place him as my Lord...  I quickly learned I was a full grown man who stopped learning about God when I was a boy (my choice) and now I want to complete my education about God (my choice)...

My investigation of Christianity lead to researching the Catholic Church.  

Some reasons why I personally wanted to investigate the Catholic Church are:
   1. Its the largest unified body of Chrisitian believers

2. They claim to be started directly from the Aposltes.  

3. A negative claim would be made about a teaching of the Catholic Church from non-Catholic sources

4. My mother raised me as a Catholic (honor thy mother)

5. If I was going to be a Protestant I needed to know what I was getting out of and getting into.

I stand firm in the Catholic Church because of my understanding of Authority and how Jesus gave authority to his Apostles and they in-turn passed this authority on to "reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others." (2 Timothy 2:2).  

Logically, I cannot stand-by a Bible only principle because that is not what Jesus taught and that is not how Chrisitianity existed the past 2,000 years since the Resurection!

The analyst in me needed to dig deep into the essence of the faith and how it is lived...  It would have been easy to continue to say "my authority is Holy Scripture"... but I found this was not true in actual practice...  I watched and observed Christians who professed this creed and observed myself and discovered if I put this thought into practice I would place myself as the ultimate authority...  my interpretations is what I would follow under the pretence of Bible Only...


kevingaily

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Re: Are people elected to Hell?
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2007, 09:28:12 AM »
Well, this is a bit off the topic, but I'll give a short answer. I did not blame the Catholic church for anything. It was the natural progression as the woman who led me th the Lord was in a protestant church. Obviously, God works in "those" churches as well, yes? :D

I hold no malice towards anyone, and am comfortable with where God has me now.

Just so you know, many in my family are Catholic. We get along just fine. My two sisters are Catholic, for example. We share what the Lord is doing in all of Christendom, and don't draw lines and bicker. Neither do we try to "persuade" the other on who's right. In fact, we agree that on all sides there are issues.

 

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