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Author Topic: Pope Changes Church Teaching on Limbo  (Read 1532 times)

Online John Oscar

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Pope Changes Church Teaching on Limbo
« on: May 08, 2007, 07:35:07 AM »
The current pope has decided to get rid of the teaching of limbo:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18296718/site/newsweek/
John O


Offline Zaph

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Re: Pope Changes Church Teaching on Limbo
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2007, 09:01:46 AM »
So does this mean that the former Popes were wrong?

kevingaily

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Re: Pope Changes Church Teaching on Limbo
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2007, 03:05:28 PM »
Wow! This is huge - and in a good way. That fear of losing your child is what caused babies to be baptized as soon as possible for fear of going to hell and later limbo. By disputing and laying this issue to rest, that is a big step.

Now, I don't know if infant baptism will ever go away, but it certainly proves it is not necessary. Hopefully, the Pope will release the folks from the pressure to do infant baptism. This will invite more of a conscience ascent to Christ, and that may get more RC's in the faith, rather than just doing the traditional thing. :amen2:

Online John Oscar

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Re: Pope Changes Church Teaching on Limbo
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2007, 07:40:38 PM »
I've baptized quite a few stillborn or SIDS babies because their mother's were afraid of them being stuck outside of heaven.  :what:

This raises an interesting question for our resident Catholic's- we have been told by you in the past that the teaching of the church cannot be changed.  It seems like either we misunderstood, or this just occured....
John O


st_michael

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Re: Pope Changes Church Teaching on Limbo
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2007, 11:36:32 PM »
Hello all,

I find no difference in the Official teaching of the fate of unbaptized infants within the teachings of the Catholic Church.  The theory of "Limbo has never been official church doctrine" (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18296718/site/newsweek/).    

Please read the sources on what the Catholic Church actually teaches as opposed to what people think the Catholic Church teaches...  

My words of advice... please read from direct sources...especially anything that is put in a secualr news publication...  

I have come to an understanding as to why some people outside of the Catholic Church believe a Change is made and can be made of the Faith.
  • I believe some people want sooo much to see the Catholic Church change a teaching they grab at any little thing and make it out to be a 180 degree change
  • I believe when a Catholic theologian teaches something, a protestant (IMHO) might believe it is the teaching of the Catholic Church because in my experience the Protestant theologians are the teachers (Pastors) of there communities and therefore would expect our theologians to be our teachers... but that is not the Case... Our Bishops in union with the Pope are the Official Teaching bodies of the Church...
To understand the Catholic Church is to know it will not change a teaching of the Faith.  We do not profess to have a living prophet... The Church teaches only what has been traditioned (handed on), oral or written... it does not have the authority to change the deposit of Faith that was given.  It can change a teaching of a discipline but not the Faith...

A discipline would be like eating meat on Friday, married or celibate priest, going to Mass every day or every Sunday... so on and so forth...  

A teaching of the Faith is like Jesus is God,  The Holy Spirit is God,  The Father is God,  Jesus is both 100% man and 100% divine...  so on and so forth...  

I hope this helps...  

Below is the source document newsweek used and below that is the Catechism of the Catholic Church (teaching of the Catholic Church).

   Read from the source!

THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS
WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html

Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm#1261

1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 01:03:03 AM by st_michael »

st_michael

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Re: Pope Changes Church Teaching on Limbo
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2007, 12:43:28 AM »
Quote from: kevingaily;39520
Now, I don't know if infant baptism will ever go away, but it certainly proves it is not necessary. Hopefully, the Pope will release the folks from the pressure to do infant baptism.

 
Hello Kevin,

I can promise you infant baptism will never go away...  We have the sacrament of Confirmation that allows people to have a "conscience ascent to Christ".  

The time of Confirmation is when the person chooses to continue the Faith and learn more deeply or drift away...

Some people had the "conscience ascent to Christ" when they had already drifted away from the Catholic Church like myself...

I only came back to the Church because when I was deciding on leaving the Catholic Church I wanted to make sure I knew what I was leaving. I came to the understanding that many people do not know what the Catholic Church actually teaches, including Catholics...  This Limbo matter is a fine example...

This is an official teaching...  
   The Baptism of infants

1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. the Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

1251 Christian parents will recognize that this practice also accords with their role as nurturers of the life that God has entrusted to them.52

1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole "households" received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53

Quote
This will invite more of a conscience ascent to Christ, and that may get more RC's in the faith, rather than just doing the traditional thing. :amen2:

hmmmm... a conscience ascent to Christ is needed for all people... Catholic and Protestants alike...  however, reason and logic forces me to talk about "doing the traditional thing"...

When I instruct my child to say "thank you" after receiving something, I am teaching him a tradition...  

When I teach my son to say "I love you", that is also a tradition...  

I teach, as I am sure all people teach others, many traditions...  

Paul teaches  "the brethren, [to] stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:15).
Notice the split between something oral or written... This sounds Catholic...  :D

Jesus did not comdem all TRADITIONS... he tells the people they "must obey them and do everything they tell you".(Matthew 23:3)

Logic and reason testify to the validity of using tradition to teach a greater truth then the tradition itself...  

Lets ask a question...  without tradition how does one get married?

All Christian Churches or communities teach the need for a valid marriage... however what makes a valid marriage in the eyes of a Christian Church or community?  The Bible is silent on this very import subject... it only teaches us marriage is needed between a man and a women...

kevingaily

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Re: Pope Changes Church Teaching on Limbo
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2007, 08:32:50 AM »
Mike, with all due respect bro, I had my confirmation because I was forced to because it was my parent's wishes. I hated God and was very angry with Him for the abusive childhood I endured.(I blamed God for my family life not the church per se) Confirmation does not equal saving grace. I'm not saying God can't use the ceremony to good use, just saying it's only meaningful if the heart is in it.

I was not knocking tradition so to speak, just pointing out it does have it's apparent weaknesses. Ultimately, it is the Spirit of God who draws us. The ways He chooses are many, but the underlying truth is it is by the Lord.

My thoughts concerning infant baptism are that it was a doctrine not found in Scripture. You can argue many times over as to why many churches(including protestant ones) do it, but it was not recorded as having happened in the Bible. I'm not saying it is sin or wrong to do it. Heck, many churches do baby dedications which is similar. I'm just saying asking God to keep someone and change their hearts is not the same as a decision to be devoted to Christ. Many RC's do commit at confirmation, I'm not knocking it. Even the Lutheran's and some others have a similar way of doing it.

One final thought.... I know many folks who trust in the institutions and traditions of many things in life - these don't save. If I observe lent, for example, because it is tradition and I'm only doing it because it's socially acceptable in my sphere of life, but it has no real meaning, it profits little. Honestly God hates empty meaningless ritual. If the heart is in it, and the person has fasted by not eating meat to work on godly self control, and to contemplate what Christ did, and to pray for the lost, then it it a very meaningful thing to do.

I guess my comments on infant baptism were directed in a hope that folks would not trust in the rite of Baptism as a fire insurance policy - which MANY do!, but would go into the rite with a heart of willing obedience. People tend to take things less for granted if it is a willful act as opposed to other ways, IMHO.

st_michael

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Re: Pope Changes Church Teaching on Limbo
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2007, 10:13:31 AM »
Quote from: kevingaily;39526
Mike, with all due respect bro, I had my confirmation because I was forced to because it was my parent's wishes.

I am sure this is the case of many people...

My parents made me say "yes sir" and "thank you" and made me go to school... how dare them!  :D   I hated school.  :what:

Why did they make me do these things?  it was not meaniful because it was not my own heartfelt decision to do them...  

Believe me if I had decided to do good at school because I knew it could help  and I made it MY decesion to study, I believe I would be better off today...

The same with my Christian walk...  If I would have embraced God as a child things would have been totally different today...  I may have been a priest...  :D

Quote

I hated God and was very angry with Him for the abusive childhood I endured.(I blamed God for my family life not the church per se)

I am sorry for your abuse as a child... my wife was abused as a child.. my mother was abused as a child... I do not know it directly but know of it through loved ones...  

Quote
Confirmation does not equal saving grace.

Confirmation as a sacrament only works if the parties involve have a heartfelt belief in what they are doing (Jesus healed only because the others believed)...

The same is true for all the sacraments... Marriage does not make a marriage if one of the parties is doing it because a shot gun is pointed at them...  it may be legal in some states but not in the eyes of God and thefore cannot be a valid marriage... it only becomes valid if both parties, in there heart, give each other totally to the other before God...

The same is true of Baptism... The infant who is baptized is done through the faith of the parents to welcome him into the Christian family...

The child is under the protection and responsiblity of the parents faith and love...  it is not until the child grows up to a responsible person when his own heart felt need for God pushes him to make his own personal commitment to the Lord.  This age is different for most people... this is when confirmation comes to play...  The Catholic teaches that baptism is the start of the journey... it is not the climax...

Quote
Ultimately, it is the Spirit of God who draws us. The ways He chooses are many, but the underlying truth is it is by the Lord.

Amen!

Quote
My thoughts concerning infant baptism are that it was a doctrine not found in Scripture.

Please show me where in scripture it teaches us the correct way and age requirements for baptism...

Jesus tells his Apostles to baptize the whole world... not only adults... not only people who seem to be of good mind...  

Quote
I'm just saying asking God to keep someone and change their hearts is not the same as a decision to be devoted to Christ.

We agree!  We are all pulled towards or away from God...  The best a parent can do is to baptize their child... educate them in the faith and pray they decide to continue to learn of Jesus...  ultimately the decision will be own the person... unless they do not have the mind to make the choice...    

Quote
I know many folks who trust in the institutions and traditions of many things in life - these don't save. If I observe lent, for example, because it is tradition and I'm only doing it because it's socially acceptable in my sphere of life, but it has no real meaning, it profits little.

Many people say "I love you" , my children included without really meaning it... the goal of a tradition is not to keep the tradition... but the tradition is the way to teach a better truth... With me telling my children to say "I am sorry" even when they are not sorry only saying it because I told him he needs to say it to his brother is not a heartfelt sorry... but it is teaching him something bigger and better...  we set the ground work with tradition for God to do his work in people...  

Quote
I guess my comments on infant baptism were directed in a hope that folks would not trust in the rite of Baptism as a fire insurance policy

This is the teaching of the Catholic Church...  

Quote
People tend to take things less for granted if it is a willful act as opposed to other ways, IMHO.

Amen!

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Re: Pope Changes Church Teaching on Limbo
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2007, 10:16:18 AM »
Quote from: kevingaily;39526
Mike, with all due respect bro, I had my confirmation because I was forced to because it was my parent's wishes. I hated God and was very angry with Him for the abusive childhood I endured.(I blamed God for my family life not the church per se).
Wow, do you and I come from the same home??? :eek: :smack:

I received confirmation as a matter of tradition or because it was expected of me.  I had no idea what I was doing because I was too young to understand the implications of church doctrine.  Confirmation meant absolutely nothing to me because I didn't understand what it was.  I had no idea!!!! I think that it is quite possible that most[/b] of us are in that situation.  We went through the motions and did what we were told, but our hearts were never converted.  I remained unregenerate, unchanged, and I certainly had not reached the age of accountability.  

Someone just walked into my room, so I can't finish reading Kevin's post.  I'll have to come back later.  Sorry. :nervous:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

 

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