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Author Topic: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?  (Read 4604 times)

Brotherdavid

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Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« on: May 22, 2007, 03:10:35 PM »
When Jesus spoke of Himself, He said: I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. (Rev. 1:11)..... Note He NEVER said I am the second person of a trinity !! Also in Colossians 2:9-- For in HIM (not them !!) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. The Bible did not say 1/3 or 2/3, but ALL.
There is One Lord !! Deut 6:4, One God, and His Name is JESUS

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2007, 03:49:03 PM »
So who is YHWH?
John O


cdhale

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2007, 04:34:41 PM »
You then make "I and the Father are one" to essentially mean that "I and ME are one."

Doesn't wash.  Yes, Jesus is God.  Most of us here don't debate that.  But there is a division within the Godhead.

clint

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2007, 06:49:25 PM »
I never post in trinity threads because I cannot comprehend how it works.  However, I believe that all the fullness of the Godhead can be found in Jesus.  Maybe Jesus is a different kind of manifestation of the Father??? Yes, they are three and, yes, they are one.  That's about the extent of my understanding and I'll have to leave it at that.  :noidea:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2007, 09:24:40 PM »
Here is an analogy I use (credit to Tony Evans, a fine Calvinist!)

Think of a pretzel- you have three loops.  Everything that makes the pretzel a preztel, the butter, the salt, and the dough are still a part of the pretzel, even if you should look at one of the loops seperately.

The adorable Godhead is simular. All of the divine qualities- omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence are found in all three persons of the trinity.  Being that they are the only beings in the universe that can claim all three attributes, that makes them one in the sense of them sharing the power, being everywhere at once, and sharing and knowing everything.
John O


Brotherdavid

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2007, 09:27:16 AM »
YHWH is simply one of the Old Testament names for our God....
Clint, using I and me to compare to God's natures are completely inadaquate,
first of all You are not God !! In speaking of the Father, we are refering to the etrernal Spirit (period) but the Son refers to Spirit and Flesh (2 natures), not two persons, or personalities.God was "IN" Christ (reconcilling the world unto Himself) Acts 20:28- says that "God" purchased the Church with His own blood; now in John's gospel it says "God" is a Spirit !! a Spirit has no flesh or blood, God accomplished this through the Lamb (Flesh), which was Christ. Isaiah 9:6-For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. How many mighty Gods are there ? How many everlasting Fathers ?
Me again, where in the Bible does it say God is three ? No need for confusion, 1 Timothy 3:16-- And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Also, this pretzel doctine is mighty witty John; but unfortunately not Biblical, nor is it even a Bible concept.Trinitarians ALWAYS resort to extra/or non Bible stories or analogies to illustrate their point on attempting to "prove" God in Three Persons.... Why not just show ONE scripture that explicitly teaches God in Three Persons ? I can reference over three hundred scriptures that teach God is ONE !!
Also John, according to your own reasoning, If I have a four loop pretzel; that proves catholic doctrine, the fourth loop of deity MUST be Mary !!
What about a five looper ?

cdhale

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2007, 04:26:03 PM »
Quote from: Brotherdavid;39606
YHWH is simply one of the Old Testament names for our God....


I would say it was a bit more than simply another name. It is God's covenant name - His personal name, if you will.  Whenever it is used in the OT, it is invariably referring to his faithfulness or somehow tied into his covenant with Israel.
Quote

Clint, using I and me to compare to God's natures are completely inadaquate,
first of all You are not God !!


You get no argument from me in saying that I recognize that I am not God.  Not sure what in the world that has to do with what are talking about, though I was referring in my previous post to Jesus' words and changing them to fix your theology.  What I said still fits.

Quote
Trinitarians ALWAYS resort to extra/or non Bible stories or analogies to illustrate their point on attempting to "prove" God in Three Persons.... Why not just show ONE scripture that explicitly teaches God in Three Persons


How about Matthew 3:16-17 which say, As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Here  you see the Father in heaven, speaking.  The Holy Spirit descends as a dove and Jesus is getting baptized.  I think if you count you will reach 3.

This Trinitarian did NOT resort to a non-biblical story.  You are simply continuing to spout the Arian heresy that was shown to be heterodox in the early days of Christianity.  It is absolutely wrong.  It has been discussed on these forums before.  Since I have already shown your error, I will stop now.  I have 2000 years of Christian theology (which is aligned with the scripture) to back me up.   You do not.

clint

kevingaily

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2007, 07:34:05 PM »
Good post Clint.

In fact it would have been quite a sight to see if Jesus crying out to the Father in the garden was just a talk with himself, yes?

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2007, 08:17:03 AM »
The pretzel analogy is just that, an analogy.  Jesus, Paul, Peter, and the all of the writings of the early church fathers used analogy pretty consistantly in their teaching, so I consider myself in good company using that teaching method to explain a theological concept.

Otherwise, I'm not going to add anything to what Clint has already brought, as he said it as well if not better then I could have :D
John O


Brotherdavid

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2007, 11:16:09 AM »
First of all one absolute that we agree on is that God is omnipresent, but using the baptizm of Jesus to try and prove "God In Three Persons" this passage does not prove a trinity-- Where are the three "persons" ? The only person was Jesus !! Since when can God not do many things at one time ? In other words; you are saying a voice is a person ? and a dove is another person ? I still count one person !!
Also, where did Peter, Paul, and John use ANY teaching to reference to God being 3, or God in three persons, a trinity, or a triune God ? Please show me these scriptures !! The trinity doctrine is man-made; it was one of the doctrines the reformers and others have held on to, which is catholic in orgin.

cdhale

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2007, 11:25:49 AM »
Look, you are basically rambling nonsense.  A voice from heaven, a body on earth and a dove descending from heaven.  Three separate things (which is the basic meaning of person in this context, no one is saying three humans).  You can count to one all you want, but any honest person will come to three.

And so since Jesus clearly showed that there are "persons" within the Godhead and you can't refute that, you just ignore it?  He said that the Spirit proceeds from the Father (2 of the three), He prayed that all Christians would be one, just as He (Jesus) and the Father are One (Thats 2 united into one - the very concept of the Christian Trinity).  So by your analogy, all the Christians are the same person.

Jesus plainly prayed that all his followers would be one.  Does that make me, Kevin, John, MeAgain, etc the same person?  No, it means we are united into one body, though retaining our individuality, just as Jesus and the Father are part of one Godhead, though each has His own individuality, in a sense.

Keep trying.  Your theology has been proven heretical for 2000 years.  You join a long line of well intentioned but wrong theologians.

clint

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2007, 12:08:48 PM »
Good post Clint.

I agree with everything he wrote, and would humbly include that the RCC did not truly exist as a unifying entity until the mid to late 400's AD, so trying to insinuate that it is a RCC thing is one of two things- blatantly dishonest, or shows your ignorance of the history of the early church and the development of Christian doctrine over the last 2 millennia.  

This Arian heresy was put to rest at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD after the great persecutions ended.
John O


Brotherdavid

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2007, 03:26:26 PM »
The council of Nicaea was a catholic council !! You are the one who needs to study church history !! Also, Arianism believes in one essence or nature with God.... If you wish to label me as a heretic (this also was a catholic practice) call me a modalistic monarchist !!(many of us were burned at the stake, or beheaded)
As far as rattling nonsense is concerned, where's your scriptures ????
You both stated God In Three Persons>>>>>>where's your doctrine in the Bible ? Where did the Apostles teach this ? How come Jesus NEVER rubuked the Jews for their understanding and teaching of strict monotheism / they certainly were for many other things.
It's funny how because of your own misuse of the word person, you have a non-Biblical pipe dream !! Again I challege you educated men to show me just ONE explicit scripture that states or teaches God In Three Persons, A triune God, a trinity, or where Jesus or the Apostles taught this..... and PLEASE,
No pretzels !!

cdhale

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2007, 03:42:27 PM »
It has been done already.  That you refuse to see it is your own problem.  We have provided scripture to show that we are correct.  You are the one who has not.  Therefore, rather than listen to anymore of your inane comments, I will simply let you wallow in your heresy.  Enjoy.

clint

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2007, 04:10:52 PM »
Quote from: cdhale;39618
It has been done already.  That you refuse to see it is your own problem.  We have provided scripture to show that we are correct.  You are the one who has not.  Therefore, rather than listen to anymore of your inane comments, I will simply let you wallow in your heresy.  Enjoy.

clint


I concur.....
John O


 

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