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Author Topic: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?  (Read 4752 times)

st_michael

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2007, 04:19:16 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;39616

the RCC did not truly exist as a unifying entity until the mid to late 400's AD


Hello John,

I would humbly say this is like saying John Oscar "did not truly exist as a unifying entity until" you where born... :what: This would dismiss your existence at conception and only place your existence at birth...

Jesus said the Kingdom is like a mustard seed... small at first and then becomes huge...  

Does the Mustard seed look like the Mustard tree?  NO!

Is the Mustard seed the same essence as the Mustard tree... YES!

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2007, 04:34:28 PM »
Michael,

I figured I would get a post from you when I said that :D

There was no offense meant.  I merely was pointing out that the persecuted church was only beginning to come together after 200 years of very oppresive persecution, and the power of Rome wasn't centralized to Rome until the dates I gave (according to Protestant history, RCC history probably has a different take on it.)

It had it's very beginnings at Nicaea, but I wouldn't call it a true RCC council as the RCC really wasn't that in name or function yet.
John O


st_michael

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2007, 11:57:56 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;39621
Michael,
There was no offense meant.


None taken!  I just could not allow a statement like yours go with out a rebuttal!  :D  

I have found many people understanding of History is different... However History is not!

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2007, 10:29:36 AM »
Quote from: Brotherdavid;39600
When Jesus spoke of Himself, He said: I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. (Rev. 1:11)..... Note He NEVER said I am the second person of a trinity !! Also in Colossians 2:9-- For in HIM (not them !!) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. The Bible did not say 1/3 or 2/3, but ALL.
There is One Lord !! Deut 6:4, One God, and His Name is JESUS



Hi BrotherDavid,

Just want you to know you are not alone in rejecting the doctrine of the Trinity Constantine favored over waffling about it as opposed to Arianism, another heresy, early in the 4th century.

The fact about it is, God is Spirit, by the testimony or inferrence of Jesus, in Jn.4:24, John, in Jn.1:18 and 1 Jn.4:12, and Paul in 2 Cor.2:17-18 and Col1:15.  Any question as to the Spirit of God being Holy, has no option, per His own testimony in Lev.11:44.  Which equates into God being the Holy Spirit.

With that having been said, there is no option to the fact that the Holy Spirit is also the Father, as found in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35.  Which denies the claim of trinitarians that the Father and the Holy Spirit are the "first and third persons of the Trinity.

As for where Jesus enters into the scene, YHWH [Tetragrammaton for the phonetic Yahweh as well as the English phonetic transliteration many years later], prophecied in various places in the OT there was to be a Son, He was to be the Father, in Ps.2:7, 45:6-7 and 110:1 in addition to Isa.7:14.  Of which the latter three literally called this Son, God.  But it was not fulfilled until [The pre-incarnated spirit of] Jesus was incarnated through the virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit, in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35.

According to the testimony of YHWH Himself, in Isa.43:10 and 44:6, He was/is the one and only God, whom the Scriptures reveal to be both the Holy Spirit as well as the Father.  Jesus did not exist [In human form], nor was He the Only Begotten Son, until it was documented in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35.  Therefore, Jesus was not a part of the "Godhead" during OT times at all, until He was incarnated and became such in the the NT, where He then became the Son of God and literally, by the very testimony of YHWH Himself, God the Son, as recorded by John in Jn.1:1-2.  When it was fulfilled, Ps.2:7, 45:6-7 and Isa.7:14 were repeated in Heb.1:5, 8-9.

So what are the Scriptural origins of the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus?  Jesus gives an account of Himself, through Solomon, by the Holy Spirit [In the same way David wrote of Him, by the Holy Spirit, in Ps.22] in Pr.8:22-36, when YHWH "possessed" [Vs22, KJV], "given birth," in vs 24 and 25 [NIV] him before the creation of the world, before His deeds of old.  [Paraphrased].  The term "possessed" in Gen.14:19 and 22 [KJV] clearly means "Creator," and is so designated in the NIV and annotated as such in the NASB.  In perfect harmony with Col.1:15, where Jesus is called the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.  In vs 30, the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus "was the "craftsman at His YHWH's] side."  [NIV]

Pr.8:22-36 is the personification of the wisdom of God, in that of Jesus Christ, as revealed in 1 Cor.1:24 and in Col.2:2-3.

It doesn't matter how you cut it per the Scriptures, whether it's God, the Holy Spirit, or the Father, all three are Spirit, and God is not three Spirits, but quite obviously, only one.  Therefore, from NT times on, The "Godhead consisted of YHWH and Y'Shua, or simply put, the Father [Who is God, the Holy Spirit] and the Son, literally by the Father's own testimony, God the Son.

About Jesus statement that He and the Father are one in Jn.10:30 and later where it is fully explained, in Jn.17:21-22;  just what did He mean?  Jesus meant, specifically referring to the spiritual condition, He and the Father are one, by the one Spirit, the Father who dwelt within Him.  Which was His very prayer to the Father for us to be one with them, in the same manner they are one with one another.  Which is fully supported by Paul in 1 Cor.12:12-13.  

Does that somehow eliminate the identities of us all who belong to Christ, and who are all one with He and our Father in heaven from being unique individual persons, to somehow evaporate our personage into Jesus, any more than it is with He and the Father?  Of course not!  A case and point can be found in a countless number of places in NT Scripture, including every epistle in the Bible in which both the Father and Jesus are greeted.  The Apostles all knew the Father, is the Holy Spirit, or would have been guilty of a terrible gaff by not mentioning Him along with the Father and Jesus in those greeting, would they not?

There are a number of other reasons to reject the trinitarian view, but the above is enough for now.  Now watch the feathers fly from those who still want to stand by an unsupportable theology.

Blessings to you all, brothers,

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

kevingaily

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2007, 02:52:09 PM »
Just one serious question. Who was Jesus praying in the garden and on the cross to?

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2007, 11:15:11 PM »
If you are addressing me, Kevingaily,

To His Father, of course.  Was there some question you have about my post above, or are you addressing someone else?

Blessings,

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

kevingaily

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2007, 02:50:31 PM »
Quote from: Quasar;39683
If you are addressing me, Kevingaily,

To His Father, of course.  Was there some question you have about my post above, or are you addressing someone else?

Blessings,

Quasar

Hey bro, it was to you. I was just trying to understand where you were coming from, not to be tricky or anything.

Thanks for the answer. :)

Quote
John 1

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2007, 11:33:07 AM by kevingaily »

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2007, 07:12:39 AM »
Quote from: kevingaily;39687
Hey bro, it was to you. I was just trying to understand where you were coming from, not to be tricky or anything.

Thanks for the answer. :)



Q:  No problem, bro,

"When He gave the sea its boundary so the water would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth, Then I was the craftsman at His side.  I was filled with delightday after day, rejooicing always in His presence."  Pr.8:29-30.

Blessings,

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Brotherdavid

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2007, 03:11:11 PM »
The truth is you provided ONE scripture that is not talking about Three Separate Persons..... What noted theologian that you've studied under teach that the Holy Ghost is a bird ? There was ONE person standing in the water -Jesus, who was God in flesh, the same omnipresent Spirit who fills the universe was in Christ.

cdhale

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2007, 03:43:38 PM »
First of all, it is difficult to understand what you are talking about. Besides the fact that your English is garbled (no offense intended, as it doesn't appear to be your first language - if it is, then offense is intended and you need to learn how to write better), you are again missing the point of the word "persons."

Maybe this is beyond your comprehension, but the word can be used in more than one way.  Usually it does mean "human" and that is how we normally use the word.   But there are many settings in which the word simply is used to distinguish between three like beings.  This would be one case of that happening.

Don't get all upset that I said the HS descended like a bird (John says it was a bird).  That is scripture talking, not me.  Secondly, a voice came from somewhere in the heavens.  Did it come from a physical person?  Nope, scripture clearly teaches that God is Spirit.  Yet a voice comes from heaven, while the HS has descended upon Jesus.  That is three separate entities (since you don't like person).  It takes some twisted and distorted reading to make that be all one entity.  

But good luck trying.

clint

Brotherdavid

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2007, 02:51:21 PM »
clint, i willy appwishiate you pointing out that my Enguish is not too good....
I guess this might be a revelation to you.....  There are many members, but one body, some don't do some things as well as others; some may sing like a bird, others can't carry a tune in a bucket, some people are very good with numbers and organization- Other people are not too well organized and not the best in math, Some people are English majors, while others can't spell real well, or maybe they're just not quite as good as others in this particular area.
The only point you've made is you obviously believe you're smarter, and therefore have a superior grasp of God's word than I do !!
Jesus' baptizm does not prove God in three separate persons, only different roles of our one God, as with myself, I'm a father, and a son, and an engineer, and a husband, but there are not persons-just one !!
In my King James Bible in Matt.3:16, it says: the Spirit of God descending "like a dove".... I know I'm not an English major as you so rightly pointed out but, it does not say the Holy Spirit WAS or even LOOKED like a dove !! This actually is a new twist on the trinity doctrine that I've never heard..... God in three entities !!
I can show literally hundreds of scripture that explicitly says, or teaches ONE God.
You showed ONE scripture that mentions "a voice" from heaven, a manifestation (temporary at that)which was described as "a dove",and of course the Lord Jesus Christ in the water being baptized.
Show me where it states or teaches God is three, or even God in three persons (or entities), or a triune God or a trinity !!
So many  stoop to insults and belittling others when they believe something  main steam Christian groups teach, but have nothing but assumptions
with NO explicit scripture to stand on.

cdhale

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2007, 06:45:40 PM »
Get your panties out of a wad and re-read my post.  I simply pointed out that it was difficult to even get your point from your post because the language was hard to figure out.

I don't believe that anyone here has ever heard me claim to be smarter than anyone else.  Your quick jump to judgment on that point probably means you have some sort of inferiority complex.  I am sorry for you.  But  your problem is not my problem.

Now, I did make a mistake in my earlier post.  I said it was John who commented on the Spirit descending in the form of a dove.  It was actually Luke 3:21-22.  Read it for  yourself:
Quote
21When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened 22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

IN BODILY FORM.  So Jesus is in one place (the river).  Spirit, in bodily form is descending from heaven (where He proceeds from the Father, as mentioned elsewhere in scripture).  Voice from heaven (not from the river, nor from the dove, so apparently the Father is speaking).  Maybe I was wrong in my earlier assessment, as well.  Perhaps English isn't your biggest issue.  It might be math.  So let me  help out:

1.  Jesus in River being baptized by John.
2.  Spirit descending in bodily form as a dove.
3.  Voice from heaven saying that Jesus is His Son.

1,2,3.  Three.

I don't have to go dragging up other verses, of which there are many, when you cannot show the error I have stated in this one.  One is sufficient.

Now, at the same time, of course there are verses that express Deity as One.  None of us deny it.  That is the mystery of the Trinity.  Three yet One.  Sometimes scripture (such as at Jesus' baptism) is referring to the Trinitarian Nature of the Godhead.  Sometimes it is referring to the Unity of the Godhead.  Both are 100% correct.

So again, I do apologize if I hurt your feelings about your English writing skills.  Perhaps it was rude of me to say so, but I really did have a hard time even gleaning your point.  But my major problem is with your theology.  It is flat dead wrong.

clint

kevingaily

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2007, 08:44:19 PM »
Quote
1 John chapter 5: 6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

Quote
Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

One important clue is that in Genesis 1:1 the title “God” is translated from ’Elo•him′, which is plural in Hebrew.

I'm gonna have to agree with Clint here. I do want to clear up something, though. None of us trinitarians see God as three Gods, but one God in three persons. It is too hard to exhaustively explain without ending up in heresy either way.


** Quotes are from the new king james version. Also, bold words are my doing for emphasis.

Brotherdavid

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2007, 01:15:23 PM »
I always find it interesting how many try to use one verse of scripture to formulate their doctrines ..... such the trinity water baptism formula, they use Matt. 28:19 as doctine to baptize in water in the titles Father, Son, Holy Ghost, but the truth is, this is a catholic formula that many denominations still use today, in spite of the fact that this formula was NEVER used in the Bible.
Kevin, you are correct in stating Elohim is plural, but this refers to God's majesty, and let "us" does not prove God IN THREE SEPARATE PERSONS. The Jews taught that God was talking with the angels, after all, how could God chosen people who were strict monotheistic believers be wrong ?
There is ONE that sits upon the throne in heaven..... Isaiah 43:14-the Bible says: Thus saith the Lord, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. Holy One is used again in 43:15. Isaiah 44:8- Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
God never anywhere in the scriptures refers to Himself as the Holy TWO, or the Holy Three !!

kevingaily

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Re: Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus ?
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2007, 02:32:12 PM »
Funny you say that when Jesus accepted Thomas' claim of(John 20:28) " my Lord and my God." And yet he prayed to the Father. If there was no distinction then how or why would Jesus pray to himself?

Your problem is that you only think in simple terms. God is so much bigger than our little minds can comprehend. If he is omnipresent, how is it so improbable that he is also multi-faceted in personality to be 3 in 1? God is not limited to 3rd dimensional thinking as you try to put him into.

In your effort to prove you are correct you threw out about four to five or so Bible verses(not one as you claimed) and called them void. Also, I'm giving more verses in this body of text as well that add to the case. Yet it is for you to deal with them, this is not a buffet. Our explanation deals with the oneness as well as the plurality, you dismiss the plurality found in scripture in favor of holding on to only one Biblical aspect.

Isaiah says(Is 9:6) that the son to be born/given is called mighty God and everlasting Father. Yet this same son talked to God. Unless he has a mental condition, or worse, then mighty God/everlasting Father talked to someone real, not just to himself.

Jesus said(John 8:58) before Abraham was.. I am. Yet he prayed to his Father in heaven. Clearly there is some sort of plurality there, or else he was a madman talking to noone.

Also, nowhere does it mention God was talking to angels in Genesis chapter one. That claim that he was is pure speculation and unprovable via the text of chapter one.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2007, 04:12:01 PM by kevingaily »

 

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