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Author Topic: Assembly of God Position on Election  (Read 6514 times)

Offline John Oscar

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Assembly of God Position on Election
« on: July 07, 2007, 10:44:58 PM »
I was surfing though the AG website, and found a position paper that explains the AG's position on Calvinism/Arminianism.

They, like me, fall in the middle :D

Disclaimer- my training and education for ministry have been through AG colleges and bible institutes, so it's probably not a surpise that I came to many of the same conclusions reached here.  I found it interesting to read these as I'm now going to an AG church for the first time, and going on staff...so it made sense to check on what they believe :D

http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_4178_security.cfm
John O


Offline Tom

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Re: Assembly of God Position on Election
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2007, 02:01:47 AM »
That is not the middle, it is Arminianism in it's purest form.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline me again

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Re: Assembly of God Position on Election
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2007, 06:41:32 AM »
I agree with Tom!!! It's Armenianism in it's purest form!!!! :smack:

But we still love you John, even if you believe in that stuff!!!! :brew:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Assembly of God Position on Election
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2007, 07:26:42 AM »
Actually, "pure" Arminiansim (not the way that Jacob Arminius taught it) would say that we fall in and out of salvation all the time.  That's the way that many evangelist's within the Protestant community would preach it.

The AG position is saying that although it is possible to loose one's salvation, it's very difficult to do.
John O


Offline Tom

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Re: Assembly of God Position on Election
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2007, 07:43:54 AM »
And the individual you are speaking of losing their salvation, the Calvinist would state was never saved at all.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Assembly of God Position on Election
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2007, 03:23:05 PM »
That is correct, and to be honest, my theology is swinging slowly but surely to that opinion.  Not pure Calvinism per se, but a mixture of the truths of both theologies.
John O


kevingaily

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Re: Assembly of God Position on Election
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2007, 08:26:57 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;40055
That is correct, and to be honest, my theology is swinging slowly but surely to that opinion.  Not pure Calvinism per se, but a mixture of the truths of both theologies.


I tend to agree with Tom on this as well. Even though I am not down with the whole TULIP thing, this one part, perseverance of the saints, I do agree on.( I also agree with the T and the U in their basic form)

eegles2003

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Re: Assembly of God Position on Election
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2008, 10:25:22 AM »
i just wanted to add that the whole predestination thing i believe in a sense that God knows or has foreknowledge.  but there are some verses in the old testament that i dont get.  such as exodus 32:14, and jeremiah 18:7-10.  so the question to me is, how much does God know?  i would never challenge that thought or God himself, but to only clarify predestination.  i know it talks more about it in romans i think chapter 9.  so i guess i believe(even though i am presently going to a calvinist church)that we do have choices in certain situations but not pertaining to our choosing of God, because he first chose us.  so what is that fine line between our choices and his?   is it merely salvation?

Offline Zaph

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Re: Assembly of God Position on Election
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2008, 12:00:02 AM »
God want us to serve Him out of love. It is not love to be pre-programmed to to love.

You might as well make a robot and pre-program it to say "I love you" once in a while.

If God pre-programmed everyone before hand then He is nothing more than a puppet master or a very fancy robot manufacturer.

True love demands a choice. If the choice is made for you it's no choice at all.

By the way... i agree that God can do whatever He wants whenever He wants. I simply believe He wants people to serve Him out of love.

P.S.... why do I always get sucked into this discussion? Each time this pre-destination topic comes up I tell myself I'm NOT gonna say anything this time.  Ughhh...yet here I am.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Assembly of God Position on Election
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2008, 11:18:10 AM »
I have my wife trained that when I say, "Hmm, someone's bringing up a Calvinist arguement again", she immediately goes to the garage, grabs a 2x4, runs back in and smacks me on the head.  The resulting retro and antegrade amnesia makes me forget the topic, and saves me a lot of frustration :lalala::D
John O


Offline Zaph

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Re: Assembly of God Position on Election
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2008, 11:51:14 AM »
I think I'm gonna have to ask my wife to do the same. :)

Offline me again

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Re: Assembly of God Position on Election
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2008, 09:19:01 PM »
You can't save yourselves.

There is nothing that you can do to save yourself.

You are saved exclusively through the actions of the Lord Jesus Christ. He wills you to accept Him.  

The non-elect will never get elected by Him. Look up the word "elect" in the KJV bible and read all of those scriptures in their context -- and then you'll become a Calvinist. :snicker:

You are completely dependent on His mercy.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Assembly of God Position on Election
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2008, 09:34:08 PM »
Me Again,

I agree with everything you said.  That's why the Arminian doctrine of Previeniant Grace teaches that it's the Holy Spirit that empowers the unregenerant to have the ability to choose Christ.  If there is no choice, then there is no need for grace- God will simply choose who He wants irregardless of their sin.
John O


Offline me again

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Re: Assembly of God Position on Election
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2008, 10:21:07 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;42432
Me Again,

I agree with everything you said.  That's why the Arminian doctrine of Previeniant Grace teaches that it's the Holy Spirit that empowers the unregenerant to have the ability to choose Christ[/u].  If there is no choice, then there is no need for grace- God will simply choose who He wants irregardless of their sin.
I completely agree with you (above) that it is the Lord who empowers the elect to come to Him.

The non-elect will never be empowered by the Holy Spirit to be converted.

Grace is a one-way street e.g. the Lord gives His grace to whomsoever He chooses.

Wheat is wheat and tares are tares and the two are completely separate, albeit they look similar and are allowed to grow together until the end of the age.

Here's the fact that horrifies most non-Calvinists: Most people will go to hell and there is nothing that you or they can do about it! For straight is the gate and narrow is the way and few there be that find it!

:attention:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Assembly of God Position on Election
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2008, 10:03:28 PM »
It's not the idea that God can cast people into Hell that bothers a Christian with a biblical (not a taught theological) mindset.  It's not what the bible teaches about the character of God.  I've said it before and I'll say it again (cause I'm at the firehouse and my wife isn't here to swing the 2x4)- Calvinism depicts a God different from what the bible describes Him as.

Calvin's god- A capricious entity that has little or no regard for his creation.  Really the cross was unnecessary because he's just going to do what he is going to do.  He's god, and he can change his mind and character whenever he wants.  All of the scriptures in the bible about God being a loving and forgiving father that desperately wants all to come to repentance and salvation are a lie at best and a cruel deception at worst because he cares only about "his elect".

Arminius' God- A loving entity that created mankind in His image- the ability to choose, to reason, to discover Him both on a spiritual and intellectual level.  Reason and logic helps us discover Him for who he is through His revealed Word and the guiding of His Holy Spirit.

I know this is a debate that will go on until Rapture, but it's one I can never let go because it deals with the character of the one I love....
John O


 

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