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Author Topic: Women Silent in Church?  (Read 3040 times)

Offline Danny

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Women Silent in Church?
« on: July 08, 2007, 06:29:01 PM »
Brothers and Sisters,

1 Timothy 2:12 says; "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet" (NASB).  There is no doubt that the Apostle Paul wrote this under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  How do we apply this truth today?  

PS - No agenda here; trying to learn.

Offline Tom

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Re: Women Silent in Church?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2007, 09:38:39 PM »
Quote from: Danny;40039
Brothers and Sisters,

1 Timothy 2:12 says; "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet" (NASB).  There is no doubt that the Apostle Paul wrote this under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  How do we apply this truth today?  

PS - No agenda here; trying to learn.


Hi Danny.
The way I would apply it is as it is written. Women are not to hold positions in the church which place them in spiritual authority over men. They may teach other women and children, they can evangelize, but they cannot be pastors or overseers. This goes all the way back to the Genesis Chapter 3. God told Eve, "Your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you."

I realize many denominations allow this today. In my opinion they are every bit as apostate as the ones who ordain homosexuals.

God has many opportunities for women to serve, just not a position of spiritual authority over men.

As you will notice, when God set up the Levitical Priesthood he told Aaron this shall be an office for you and your sons. When Jesus called the 12 Apostles they were also all male. Why? These are positions of spiritual authority.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Women Silent in Church?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2007, 11:05:40 PM »
I concur with Tom, although I wouldn't equate it with the level of apostacy that ordaining homosexuals is.  I would say that it is historically often the beginninng of the slippery slope that leads to that though...
John O


Offline Tom

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Re: Women Silent in Church?
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2007, 07:39:39 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;40047
I wouldn't equate it with the level of apostacy that ordaining homosexuals is.  I would say that it is historically often the beginninng of the slippery slope that leads to that though...



Women in places of spiritual authority over men is condemned as plainly as homosexuality, although not in as many places in the scripture. God will not bless the assembly that has either one as their leader, unless of course the woman led a group of all females or children.

As far as women being silent in church I believe that just means on matters of leadership, here's why,

Titus 2:3-5
Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

This assignment for the older women to teach the younger would surely take place in church, especially among new converts who have not been raised in the faith. So to say women should be always silent in church would preclude them from carrying out this responsibility as well as others. The feminine voice needs to be heard and considered in the church it is just not the voice of the spiritual leader and that voice is not to be used in the instruction or leadershipt of men. That, is what Paul meant.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Women Silent in Church?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2007, 06:19:08 PM »
Quote from: Tom;40049
Women in places of spiritual authority over men is condemned as plainly as homosexuality, although not in as many places in the scripture.


So is drinking alcoholic beverages, not tithing, cursing, lying, ect....(making a point, not an attack)

I agree in general with what you are saying, but I wouldn't be as black and white about it.

There were many women in the bible used in places of spiritual authority-Deborah and Priscilla to name a few.

So you are saying that any foreign missions church or denomination started by a women is in error and should disband?
John O


Offline me again

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Re: Women Silent in Church?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2007, 08:12:35 PM »
I also agree that women should not hold apostolic positions within the church, just as homosexuals shouldn't.  However, it's fine for women to hold positions of responsibility, as long as it doesn't equate to being over men spiritually.  Do I sound like a Muslum? :nervous: :smack:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Tom

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Re: Women Silent in Church?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2007, 08:12:50 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;40058
So is drinking alcoholic beverages, not tithing, cursing, lying, ect....(making a point, not an attack)


Actually, drunkeness is condemned not the drinking of alcoholic beverages.

Quote

So you are saying that any foreign missions church or denomination started by a women is in error and should disband?



It depends. Did the woman who founded the organization exercise spiritual authority over men? If so, it is unscriptural and based on error. I'm not so sure the sin lies with the woman who exercises the authority as it does with the men  who follow it.  

The fact is that any denomination I know of that was founded by women has so many other doctrinal issues that women in their leadership or as one of their founders is just one more fly on the dung pile.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Women Silent in Church?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2007, 08:45:21 PM »
Well, virtually every foreign missions church started by a women was from the conversion of men in the village, so I suppose she at least for a time exercised spiritual authority over men.
John O


Offline Danny

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Re: Women Silent in Church?
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2007, 04:38:04 PM »
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 - The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.  If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. (NASB)

This seems to go beyond exercising spiritual authority over men.  It seems to indicate that women are not permitted to speak in church period.  I don't hear anyone advocating that women cannot ask questions in church.  What am I missing?

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Women Silent in Church?
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2007, 05:21:06 PM »
You have to understand the Hebrew synagogue to understand-

In the Jewish synagogue, women and men sat separately and far apart from one another.  This carried over for awhile in the early Christian church, and when the Hellenistic Greek women were confronted with this, they were not used to being the "silent little women" that the Hebrew women were raised to be, and would openly ask questions during the church service, offending the Jewish believers who thought they were out of order.

So to keep peace between the Jewish and Greek/Gentile believers, it is believed that Paul instituted this rule....

Blessings
John O


Offline Danny

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Re: Women Silent in Church?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2007, 08:47:48 AM »
Back to 1 Timothy 2:12; what do we make of the beginning of the sentence, "But I do not allow"?  What is the significance of Paul telling Timothy - this is what I do?  It just comes across as a suggestion for a certain situation in Timothy's church - rather than a universal command.

Offline me again

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Re: Women Silent in Church?
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2007, 09:47:51 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;40396
You have to understand the Hebrew synagogue to understand-

In the Jewish synagogue, women and men sat separately and far apart from one another.  This carried over for awhile in the early Christian church, and when the Hellenistic Greek women were confronted with this, they were not used to being the "silent little women" that the Hebrew women were raised to be, and would openly ask questions during the church service, offending the Jewish believers who thought they were out of order.

So to keep peace between the Jewish and Greek/Gentile believers, it is believed that Paul instituted this rule....
Well if that's true (and I don't doubt it), then women do not need to be silent in the church.  Under that particular interpretation, Paul's ruling (that women must be silent in church) was for that locale and not a universal rule to be implemented all over the world.  :eek:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

 

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