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Author Topic: Pre-Trib Fib  (Read 6773 times)

Brotherdavid

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Pre-Trib Fib
« on: August 06, 2007, 02:00:41 PM »
Interestlingly enough, pre trib doctine was not even heard of until around the year 1830 !! Are there any defenders of this doctrine out there ?
God Bless.............Brotherdavid

kevingaily

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2007, 03:39:30 PM »
You probably won't get too many responses since you straight out called it a lie(fib) in your thread name.

Brotherdavid

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2007, 03:53:45 PM »
Amen Kevin, you're so right !! Fib =Lie

cdhale

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2007, 04:18:32 PM »
First off, I think you might have missed Kevin's point.  He didn't call the Pre-trib doctrine a lie,  he simply said that you wouldn't get many people to participate, since you are attacking that doctrine without benefit of an argument.

Most regulars here know that I am the resident non-premillinarian.  I also consider the pre-trip (as well as post, mid, etc trib) doctrine to be in error. However, I do try to have some small semblance of respect when discussing it.

I do think that was Kevin's intention, to point out that you are not respecting others.  I might add that pride and causing division in the body of Christ is also called a sin in scripture.

clint

Offline Tom

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2007, 02:13:01 AM »
If I run across anybody who wants to spend their precious time posting Scripture for you to ignore while you continually spew the teachings of your cult I'll be sure to refer them to this thread and send them your way.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Brotherdavid

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2007, 08:26:01 AM »
According to scripture, we will go through the tribulation ....
If this offends you, you don't have a problem with me, but with God's word....
You boys like it nice and comfortable, real sweet and tactful,
but we must warn ALL people that destruction draweth nigh
I would love to be able to seriously embrace the pre-trib doctrine, but I find NO evidence for this doctrine

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2007, 08:42:14 AM »
You haven't posted a single scripture, so don't say it's "God's Word"

You've only posted an opinion, which is "david's word".
John O


Brotherdavid

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2007, 01:08:54 PM »
Matthew 24:29,30- (29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Offline Tom

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2007, 02:35:17 PM »
I present this Scripture not to debate anything with David but to demonstrate the pre-Trib position or at least the pre-Great Trib position. David no doubt will not understand it because it involves Scripture and therefore would require the assistance of a person of the Godhead, which he doesn't believe in to reveal it.

The Great Tribulation begins in Revelation 6:15-17 The kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks and the mountains, calling to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand."

The Great Tribulation is defined here as the wrath of God. Interestingly, Scripture here asks who can stand.

1 Thess. 5:9-10 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.

Furthermore, the primary problem with the belief that God would send his beloved through the Great Tribulation is that it is insulting to the character of God revealed in the Old Testament. Only 18 chapters into the Bible God chooses to reveal the following about himself in a discourse with Abraham. Abaraham states,Gen 18:23 "Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with wicked?" Gen. 18:25 Far be it from you to do such a thing to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?

Finally, God stated that if he could even find 10 he would spare the city. He couldn't so the city was destroyed. He didn't destroy it however until he evacuated Lot and his family.

God will remove his people from earth prior to pouring out his wrath. He does not destroy the righteous with the wicked. He has always throughout the Scripture made a way of escape for his people when he pours out his wrath on the wicked. Starting with Lot, going on to Noah and again at the Rapture of the Church.

I don't know where you got the idea that this belief has only been around since the 1830's? Whoever is teaching you Scripture should have his GED revoked.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2007, 09:05:43 PM »
Quote from: Brotherdavid;40366
Matthew 24:29,30- (29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


That doesn't prove or disprove the pre-trib rapture....or any eschatological system...   :blah:
John O


kevingaily

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2007, 10:57:43 PM »
Quote
I don't know where you got the idea that this belief has only been around since the 1830's? Whoever is teaching you Scripture should have his GED revoked.


I ROFLed at this one....  

People who go by the pre or mid trib positions base their decisions on how they read Scripture as Tom stated as well as things Daniel, Paul and Jesus etc... said. So while they may or may not "have it right" in your estimation, it the result of study of Scripture, not because some dude claimed to see new visions and have a new revelation. Funny thing is Martin Luther had to "rediscover" the base truth of the just shall live by faith. So even if it became popular in recent centuries to believe in a pre wrath salvation of God's elect, it proves nothing to use times periods as a proof for or against.  God has always providentially moved in events throughout time, and led His people. He let us know that while we will not know the day or the hour, that we can see the season. He has always been faithful to all generations to help them through the times in which they lived in God's grand scheme of things. So perhaps.... this is of God to have more of an emphasis on the subject now... for good reason?

Again, not "laying it all down here" as I know not everyone agrees on this, but just defending the fact that Biblical scholarship and prayer has been in this not just snake oil and charms as the OP would like to have folks think.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2007, 03:47:50 PM »
Quote from: Brotherdavid;40356
Interestlingly enough, pre trib doctine was not even heard of until around the year 1830 !! Are there any defenders of this doctrine out there ?
God Bless.............Brotherdavid



The reason for that is the fact that the RCC and the Amillennialism they taught, kept it hidden until well after the Reformation.  But that did not alter the fact that the Church will be raptured before the tribulation begins, as testified to by Jesus, Paul and John.

Blessings,

Quasar  
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

SozzledBoot

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2007, 11:38:44 AM »
Quote
The following article by E.L. Bynum is from the Plains Baptist Challenger, September 1995 (P.O. Box 3100, Lubbock, TX 79452) --

John L. Bray, a Southern Baptist Evangelist, has been publishing little booklets for years, in which he ridiculed the pre-tribulation rapture of the saints. He believes the saved will go through the tribulation period.

For several years he has offered $500 for anyone who could produce a documented statement that anyone taught the pre- tribulation rapture before 1830. Since no one claimed the $500 many supposed that he might be right. Of course, he is not the only one to make such preposterous claims. Others have done so as well.

In his newsletter of May 25, 1995, he announced that an amazing thing had been discovered. Here are own words:

"We have uncovered some startling information: For some number of years many thought that a 15-year-old girl by the name of Margaret MacDonald in Scotland was the originator of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching back in 1830.

"Then my own research indicated that it was Emmanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit Catholic priest, who in the 1812 book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, first taught this theory. And for 13 years, in 114,273 books which contained the offer, I offered $500.00 to anyone who would give a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's time which taught a two-stage coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time.

No one ever rightfully claimed that $500.00 offer until recently. Now I have the photostat copies of a book published in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1788but written in 1742-1744 in England, which taught the pre-tribulation rapture before Lacunza (the book was published just two years prior to Lacunza's finished manuscript of 1790); before Margaret MacDonald was every born; before The Morning Watch ever published the teaching; before J.N. Darby ever came to his first view on the subject in 1827; before Darby ever developed his ideas; and before Darby ever came to America with his teachings.

"The author of this book was a pastor of the Baptist Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (1761-1771) and his book was published in Philadelphia in 1788" (John L. Bray, newsletter, May 25, 1995).


Somewhere in my computer files, I have referenced a recent discovery of a document dating back to the early centuries of the Christian era that quite clearly talks about what can only be interpreted as a rapture event.

I regret that I am not able to produce that here, but then in that case one will have to weigh my credibility and decide for themself whether or not I am intending a bluff.  

I point out that even before 'The Gospel According To Men Who Get Their Works Published', the Apostle Paul did talk about the rapture.

He unfortunately did not include a tool kit of Biblical interpretations which we can get for the paltry sum of a few thousand dollars at any theological cemetary, but if we are careful to use those same tools of Biblical interpretation on the term 'brocolli', we will soon discover that brocolli too, like the rapture, is not mentioned.

It has been a long hard struggle but thanks to the undying devotion of a great many learned men over 20 centuries of time, we have finally perfected the art of unbelief in just about every area, and only today are we sophisticated enough to be able to prove what we no longer believe.

SozzledBoot

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2007, 11:42:13 AM »
Quote
The following article by E.L. Bynum is from the Plains Baptist Challenger, September 1995 (P.O. Box 3100, Lubbock, TX 79452) --

John L. Bray, a Southern Baptist Evangelist, has been publishing little booklets for years, in which he ridiculed the pre-tribulation rapture of the saints. He believes the saved will go through the tribulation period.

For several years he has offered $500 for anyone who could produce a documented statement that anyone taught the pre- tribulation rapture before 1830. Since no one claimed the $500 many supposed that he might be right. Of course, he is not the only one to make such preposterous claims. Others have done so as well.

In his newsletter of May 25, 1995, he announced that an amazing thing had been discovered. Here are own words:

"We have uncovered some startling information: For some number of years many thought that a 15-year-old girl by the name of Margaret MacDonald in Scotland was the originator of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching back in 1830.

"Then my own research indicated that it was Emmanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit Catholic priest, who in the 1812 book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty, first taught this theory. And for 13 years, in 114,273 books which contained the offer, I offered $500.00 to anyone who would give a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's time which taught a two-stage coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time.

No one ever rightfully claimed that $500.00 offer until recently. Now I have the photostat copies of a book published in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1788 but written in 1742-1744 in England, which taught the pre-tribulation rapture before Lacunza (the book was published just two years prior to Lacunza's finished manuscript of 1790); before Margaret MacDonald was every born; before The Morning Watch ever published the teaching; before J.N. Darby ever came to his first view on the subject in 1827; before Darby ever developed his ideas; and before Darby ever came to America with his teachings.

"The author of this book was a pastor of the Baptist Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (1761-1771) and his book was published in Philadelphia in 1788" (John L. Bray, newsletter, May 25, 1995).


Somewhere in my computer files, I have referenced a recent discovery of a document dating back to the early centuries of the Christian era that quite clearly talks about what can only be interpreted as a rapture event.

I regret that I am not able to produce that here, but then in that case one will have to weigh my credibility and decide for themself whether or not I am intending a bluff.  

I point out that even before 'The Gospel According To Men Who Get Their Works Published', the Apostle Paul did talk about the rapture.

He unfortunately did not include a tool kit of Biblical interpretations which we can get for the paltry sum of a few thousand dollars at any theological cemetary. But if we are careful to use those same tools of Biblical interpretation on the term 'brocolli', we will soon discover that brocolli too, like the rapture, is not mentioned.

It has been a long hard struggle but thanks to the undying devotion of a great many learned men over 20 centuries of time, we have finally perfected the art of unbelief in just about every area, and only today are we sophisticated enough to be able to prove what we no longer want to believe.

kevingaily

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2007, 02:06:02 PM »
Quote from: SozzledBoot;40421
Somewhere in my computer files, I have referenced a recent discovery of a document dating back to the early centuries of the Christian era that quite clearly talks about what can only be interpreted as a rapture event.

I regret that I am not able to produce that here, but then in that case one will have to weigh my credibility and decide for themself whether or not I am intending a bluff.  

I point out that even before 'The Gospel According To Men Who Get Their Works Published', the Apostle Paul did talk about the rapture.

He unfortunately did not include a tool kit of Biblical interpretations which we can get for the paltry sum of a few thousand dollars at any theological cemetary. But if we are careful to use those same tools of Biblical interpretation on the term 'brocolli', we will soon discover that brocolli too, like the rapture, is not mentioned.

It has been a long hard struggle but thanks to the undying devotion of a great many learned men over 20 centuries of time, we have finally perfected the art of unbelief in just about every area, and only today are we sophisticated enough to be able to prove what we no longer want to believe.


Very nice and well put post. Thanks... and it's good to hear from you! :clap2:

 

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