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Author Topic: Pre-Trib Fib  (Read 6775 times)

SozzledBoot

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2007, 04:00:32 PM »
The following quote is from another thread:

Quote
Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2007, 04:37:07 PM »
Quote from: SozzledBoot;40431
The following quote is from another thread:   Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
That quote facinated me, so I did a little bit of surfing on it:Ohhhhhh my head is spinning!!!!! :frown: :attention: :boom:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

SozzledBoot

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2007, 05:25:06 PM »
Thanks for the links.

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Cop4Christ

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2007, 09:36:59 PM »
The church is never mentioned in the tribulation or does it?

Offline Quasar

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2007, 12:49:59 AM »
Quote from: me again;40432
That quote facinated me, so I did a little bit of surfing on it:Ohhhhhh my head is spinning!!!!! :frown: :attention: :boom:



Part 1 of 2.


Q:  Here's another works by Dr.Thomas Ice:


The Pre-tribulation Rapture -

Hi friends,

"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as if it were a trumpet talking with me; which said, 'Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter." Rev.4:1.

When the Church age ends!

The Church is spoken of nineteen times in the first three chapters of the book of Revelation. Then the apostle John, who was given the revelation, hears these words from heaven: 'Come up hither' (Rev.4:1). The Church isn't mentioned in Revelation again until chapter 19, for the wedding of the Lamb [Christ] to His Bride [The Church], in Rev.19:7-9. Then in vs 14, Christ is seen returning to the earth in His Second Coming, with the armies from heaven following Him, that include all of His Raptured Saints, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean, with Him, to put an end to man's rebellion in the battle of Armageddon.

This shows that the Church is no where in view during chapters 4 through 18, after John has been called up to heaven, which cover the time during which most all of the Tribulation and God's wrath fall upon the earth.

In 2 Thes.2:3, the Greek word 'apostasia' is translated in English as 'apostasy.' However, another Greek definition of 'apostasia' is 'departure,' which fits the context of vs 7 that follows, of the same narrative, far better than the word 'apostasy,' 'falling away,' or 'the rebellion,' used by almost all the English translators of our Bibles, because the context of Paul's epistle is about a rapture, not about the Church 'falling away.'

Therefore 2 Thes.2:3 would read far more accurately in English if it read as follows:

"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (See verse one - Paul is talking about the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ) will not come, until the DEPARTURE occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction (the antichrist)."

Connecting verse three to verse seven is far easier to understand - that Paul is talking about the rapture of the Church when he said, 'until the departure occurs.' Meaning, the 'departure' of the Church, of course.

Verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way." The "he" of vs 7, is the ONE BODY OF CHRIST, HIS CHURCH, that will be taken out of the way, to DEPART, as in vs 3.

Then verse 8 goes on to say: "And then the lawless one (the antichrist) will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Which is a repeat of what vs 4 says about him.


The following is an article on the Greek term, "apostasia," by the well known author and lecturer, Dr. Thomas Ice, PhD. as follows:

The Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

by Thomas Ice


Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

- 2 Thessalonians 2:3


I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated " apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated " departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.


The Meaning of Apostasia

The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, " that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia)Moses." The word is a Greek compound of apo " from" and istemi " stand." Thus, it has the core meaning of " away from" or " departure." The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as " defection, revolt;" then secondly as " departure, disappearance." [1] Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:


The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8;13; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), from ungodly men(1 Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2 Cor. 12:8) , and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13).[2]


" It is with full assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages," concludes Daniel Davey, " that the word meaning of apostasia is defined as departure." [3] Paul Lee Tan adds the following:


What precisely does Paul mean when he says that " the falling away" (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article " the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for " falling away" , taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean " to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is " to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls " the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church.[4]


So the word has the core meaning of departure and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as departure from the faith.


Translation History
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) .[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of a.d. 400 renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' " [6] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" ?

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No good reason was ever given.


Part 2 of 2 follows:
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2007, 12:52:15 AM »
Part 2 of 2:

The Use of the Article
It is important to note that Paul uses a definite article with the noun apostasia. What does this mean? Davey notes the following:


Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article reference is being made to something in particular. In II Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.[7]


Dr. Lewis provides a likely answer when he notes that the definite article serves to make a word distinct and draw attention to it. In this instance he believes that its purpose is " to denote a previous reference." " The departure Paul previously referred to was ' our being gathered to him' (v. 1) and our being ' caught up' with the Lord and the raptured dead in the clouds (1 Thess. 4:17)," notes Dr. Lewis.[8] The " departure" was something that Paul and his readers clearly had a mutual understanding about. Paul says in verse 5, " Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?"

The use of the definite article would also support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable event. A physical departure, like the rapture would fit just such a notion. However, the New Testament teaches that apostasy had already arrived in the first century (cf. Acts 20:27- 32; 1 Tim. 4:1- 5; 2 Tim. 3:1- 9; 2 Pet. 2:1- 3; Jude 3- 4, 17- 21) and thus, such a process would not denote a clear event as demanded by the language of this passage. Understanding departure as the rapture would satisfy the nuance of this text. E. Schuyler English explains as follows:


Again, how would the Thessalonians, or Christians in any century since, be qualified to recognize the apostasy when it should come, assuming, simply for the sake of this inquiry, that the Church might be on earth when it does come? There has been apostasy from God, rebellion against Him, since time began.[9]


Whatever Paul is referring to in his reference to " the departure," was something that both the Thessalonian believers and he had discussed in-depth previously. When we examine Paul' s first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentions the doctrine of apostasy, however, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the rapture (cf. 1:9- 10; 2:19; probably 3:13; 4:13- 17; 5:1- 11). In these passages, Paul has used a variety of Greek terms to describe the rapture. It should not be surprising that he uses another term to reference the rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Dr. House tells us:


Remember, the Thessalonians had been led astray by the false teaching (2:2- 3) that the Day of the Lord had already come. This was confusing because Paul offered great hope, in the first letter, of a departure to be with Christ and a rescue from god' s wrath. Now a letter purporting to be from Paul seems to say that they would first have to go through the Day of the Lord. Paul then clarified his prior teaching by emphasizing that they had no need to worry. They could again be comforted because the departure he had discussed in his first letter, and in his teaching while with them, was still the truth. The departure of Christians to be with Christ, and the subsequent revelation of the lawless one, Paul argues, is proof that the Day of the Lord had not begun as they had thought. This understanding of apostasia makes much more sense than the view that they are to be comforted (v. 2) because a defection from the faith must precede the Day of the Lord. The entire second chapter (as well as 1 Thessalonians 4:18; 5:11) serves to comfort (see vv. 2, 3, 17), supplied by a reassurance of Christ' s coming as taught in his first letter.[10]


Departure and The Restrainer
Since pretribulationists believe that the restrainer mentioned in verses 6 and 7 is the Holy Spirit and teaches a pre-trib rapture, then it should not be surprising to see that there is a similar progression of thought in the progression of verse 3. Allan MacRae, president of Faith Theological Seminary in a letter to Schuyler English has said the following concerning this matter:


I wonder if you have noticed the striking parallel between this verse and verses 7- 8, a little further down. According to your suggestion verse 3 mentions the departure of the church as coming first, and then tells of the revealing of the man of sin. In verses 7 and 8 we find the identical sequence. Verse 7 tells of the removal of the Church; verse 8 says: " And then shall that Wicked be revealed." Thus close examination of the passage shows an inner unity and coherence, if we take the word apostasia in its general sense of " departure," while a superficial examination would easily lead to an erroneous interpretation as " falling away" because of the proximity of the mention of the man of sin.[11]


Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:


But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period.[12]


Conclusion
The fact that apostasia most likely has the meaning of physical departure is a clear support for pretribulationism. If this is true, (Dr. Tim LaHaye and I believe that it is), then it means that a clear prophetic sequence is laid out by Paul early in his Apostolic ministry. Paul teaches in 2 Thessalonians 2 that the rapture will occur first, before the Day of the Lord commences. It is not until after the beginning of the Day of the Lord that the Antichrist is released, resulting in the events described by him in chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians. This is the only interpretation that provides hope for a discomforted people. Maranatha!


Your bro in Christ,

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Pre-Trib rapture of the Church
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2007, 01:03:45 AM »
Quote from: Brotherdavid;40366
Matthew 24:29,30- (29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



Q:  Jesus was answering the questions His disciples had asked Him about the signs of the end of the age and of His return, in Mt.24, Mk.13 and in Lk.21.  His ministry during His first advent was exclusively to Israel as He stated in Mt.15:24 as well as in 10:5-6.  The church did not exist then until ten days after He had ascended into heaven, in Acts 1:9, at Pentecost.  

There were Israelite believers then, but far fewer than the nation of Israel, who rejected Jesus as their Messiah.  Those who did believe, became members of the body of Christ upon the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Blessings,

Quasar
« Last Edit: August 17, 2007, 01:11:11 AM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

SozzledBoot

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2007, 12:38:01 PM »
You can hide an awful lot inside the subjunctive mood of a subjective completion, but I still think that the best place to stash your cash is inside a Sealy Posturpedic!

umm...don't look now but your participles are dangling.

nats

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2007, 02:08:53 AM »
Quote from: Tom;40368
I present this Scripture not to debate anything with David but to demonstrate the pre-Trib position or at least the pre-Great Trib position. David no doubt will not understand it because it involves Scripture and therefore would require the assistance of a person of the Godhead, which he doesn't believe in to reveal it.

The Great Tribulation begins in Revelation 6:15-17 The kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks and the mountains, calling to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand."

The Great Tribulation is defined here as the wrath of God. Interestingly, Scripture here asks who can stand.


Who can stand?

Here it is...

Eph 6:10  
Finally, my brethren,
be strong in the Lord,
and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11  
Put on the whole armor of God,
that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12  
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities,
against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13  
Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God,
that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day,
and having done all, to stand.



Stand against the wiles of the devil in the evil day by being strong in the power of the might of the Lord.

I guess some people need to get a backbone.
It says to take a stand.
What does it say to take a stand against?

Quote
Withstand
G436
anthistēmi
anth-is'-tay-mee
From G473 and G2476; to stand against, that is, oppose: - resist, withstand.



:fear:

Leopards and lions and bears, oh my!


The rapture camp can't be wearing the 'whole armour of God'  
They think they're going to 'fly away' to save their soul?
God's against this 'divine[H7080] divinations[H7081]' isn't He?

Way before 1830.

nats

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2007, 02:31:22 AM »
Lookie...


Luk 10:17  
And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord,
even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Quote
Eph 6:10
Finally, my brethren,
be strong in the Lord,
and in the power of His might.

Eph 6:11
Put on the whole armor of God,
that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.


To wit...


Luk 10:18  
And he said unto them,
I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luk 10:19  
Behold, I give unto you power
to tread on serpents and scorpions,
and over all the power of the enemy:
and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Luk 10:20  
Notwithstanding in this rejoice not,
that the spirits are subject unto you;
but rather rejoice,
because your names are written in heaven.


Quote
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
but against principalities,
against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places.



Which are subject unto those who are strong in the Lord with their armor on. Armor is for WAR.


Mat 10:28  
And fear not them which kill the body,
but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


So what are you rapturing away from exactly?

Offline Zaph

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2007, 12:17:35 PM »
Nats,  you wouldn't happen to be our old friend Buzzard??

nats

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2007, 06:26:04 PM »
Quote from: Zaph;40615
Nats,  you wouldn't happen to be our old friend Buzzard??


Hi Zaph,

'me again' can verify I'm not Buzz.
Does my style of post look anything like Buzzy's?
Of course not.

I like Buzz very much.
I've known him (on line) since 2001.
He is an individual thinker with good insight.
Unlike most.
'Ashes of the red heifer' for example.
It's a good laugh and at the same time a spot on study.

We agree and we disagree. for example, I can show you that the harlot in Revelations is Aholah and Aholibah. Buzz, for now, has a different take.


Now, back to my two post's in this thread.

I covered the spiritual realm and the flesh realm.
To stand against the spiritual evil and have no fear of your flesh.
Having said that...

Quote
So what are you rapturing away from exactly?

SozzledBoot

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2007, 09:48:59 PM »
A wife who is beaten severely by her abusing husband still takes a stand against it.

The question is not about ability, but rather personality.

I don't think a 7 year thrashing would make a good wedding gift.

SozzledBoot

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2007, 10:24:17 PM »
no pain, no gain, eh?

nats

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2007, 12:04:03 AM »
Quote from: SozzledBoot;40621
no pain, no gain, eh?


That's actually an interesting comment.

2 Esdras 7:
6
There is also another thing;
A city is builded,
and set upon a broad field,
and is full of all good things:

7
The entrance thereof is narrow,
and is set in a dangerous place to fall,
like as if there were a fire on the right hand,
and on the left a deep water:
8
And one only path between them both,
even between the fire and the water,
so small that there could but one man go there at once.
9
If this city now were given unto a man for an inheritance,
if he never shall pass the danger set before it,
how shall he receive this inheritance?
10
And I said, It is so, Lord.
Then said he unto me,
Even so also is Israel's portion.
11
Because for their sakes I made the world:
and when Adam transgressed my statutes,
then was decreed that now is done.

To wit...

18
Nevertheless the righteous shall suffer strait things,
and hope for wide:
for they that have done wickedly have suffered the strait things,
and yet shall not see the wide.

That's 2 Esdras but we can find like things said in the New Testament, and Old Testament as well, about suffering.

Look what Job went through.
He received double reward.
He was a 'type' of God's very elect.

Good catch, SozzledBoot.

 

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