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Author Topic: Pre-Trib Fib  (Read 6616 times)

Online John Oscar

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2007, 02:31:21 AM »
Quote from: Zaph;40615
Nats,  you wouldn't happen to be our old friend Buzzard??


I can confirm that Nat's and Buzz's IP address are from opposite ends of the country.
John O


kevingaily

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2007, 07:16:47 AM »
Nats, Tom's post was talking about the wrath of God which will be poured out during the great tribulation. Ep 6, as you are using it, is talking about resisting the devil, not God.

Just an observation, not trying to debate the issue. You need a different proof text if you are going to support a no rapture/or otherwise position.

Those who support a pre or mid trib position are in full agreement that we all will suffer tribulation, but that the actual time when God pours out the specific wrath he has stored for the earth under the anti-christ's rule is a special series of events, not the general situations we all face just living in the world under "normal" times per se.

Again, just a clarification of the stance/position of the pre or mid trib doctrine. I'm not debating it's validity.

Online me again

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2007, 09:14:50 AM »
Quote from: nats;40622
Snip...
2 Esdras 7:6 ...
I didn't recoginize Esdras as being part of the King James Bible, but found it in the Apocrypha.  Are you Catholic or Eastern Orthadox?  Why are you quoting Esdras?  Just curious...
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

nats

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2007, 08:34:06 PM »
Quote from: ma
I didn't recoginize Esdras as being part of the King James Bible, but found it in the Apocrypha. Are you Catholic or Eastern Orthadox? Why are you quoting Esdras? Just curious...


Hi ma!

2 Esdras is part of the 1611 Kings James Bible.
One should recognize the authorship of the Holy Spirit.
Why would one listen to what someone else tells them is Holy written and what is not? The catholic's don't acknowledge 2 Esdras.
It's because they don't understand prophesy.
They never did. It's why they don't teach it.
And it, (2 Esdras) in my opinion, should be considered for knowledge.
With knowledge comes understanding.
With understanding comes wisdom.


And no, I'm not anywhere near 'catholic'.
I use to be.
Their traditons hide truth.

nats

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2007, 02:51:59 AM »
Quote from: kevingaily;40624
Nats, Tom's post was talking about the wrath of God which will be poured out during the great tribulation.


You appear to know Tom better then I do so I have only what was written in his post to go on.

I think I'm aware of what the post was refering to.
My post's shot it down.
I'll also shoot down the notion of what the definition of apostasy means in the post. To lie and say it's simply means an 'abandoment' leaves the ignorant, unaware.

Everyone! Look up APOSTASY in your dictionary and in your GREEK dictionary! It will tell you what you have abandoned!!!!

 

But first...

God's wrath begins at the 'great tribulation'. And ends at a single specific, single moment of time, (That only God/Christ knows) at the seventh trumpet. Then, the whole world will see...

Eze 39:8  'Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken'.

To wit...

Quote
Rev 16:17  
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, ]It is done.


Nowhere in scripture does it say that anyone goes anywhere until the seventh trumpet.


Quote from: kevingaily
Ep 6, as you are using it, is talking about resisting the devil, not God.


It talks about a whole lot more then that!
The whole armor of God.
Read it again and again.
Did you miss "the evil day"?
What's the Armor for?
What does the rapture camp think thay are going to avoid?

And where did I mention anything about resiting God?
I didn't. And neither do the scriptures I posted.
Why are you reading something into my post that isn't there?

Please don't try and trip up the unaware.  

Quote
Just an observation, not trying to debate the issue. You need a different proof text if you are going to support a no rapture/or otherwise position.


I think it's a bad observation. But first, show me where it is in error. I simply covered the spritual realm and the physical. Comparing scripture with scripture. And then asked a good question.

I pretty much have the 'rapture' folks caught in the lie with my post. It's not their lie, it's their teachers.

Quote
Those who support a pre or mid trib position are in full agreement that we all will suffer tribulation, but that the actual time when God pours out the specific wrath he has stored for the earth under the anti-christ's rule is a special series of events, not the general situations we all face just living in the world under "normal" times per se.


Exactly! So What is the 'rapture' camp waiting for? What part of my second post that I connected to my first post don't you think they understand?

My post's has them between a rock and a hard place (so to say)
The only way I could do that is if their doctrine is FALSE!

Quote
Again, just a clarification of the stance/position of the pre or mid trib doctrine. I'm not debating it's validity.


You should take a stand to debate it.

Hot...Cold...Luke warm...double standard...minded....something....

And face the judgment.

And we will.

nats spelled backwards = Stan.


Stan.

nats

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2007, 03:20:05 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;40623
I can confirm that Nat's and Buzz's IP address are from opposite ends of the country.



What country would that be?

Online John Oscar

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2007, 06:23:22 AM »
United States.

Your last three IP hits come from California (Northern), and the IP address you registered (Southern California)with does also.
John O


nats

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2007, 10:23:20 AM »
Hehe. I knew mine but I didn't think Buzz was in the country.

kevingaily

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2007, 11:30:38 AM »
Quote
You should take a stand to debate it.


I have my opinions. I just don't debate issues with folks who are preset in their ideas.  It is foolish to debate an issue with one who "already has all the answers they want."

I share Christ with the hungry, and to edify the body. You are simply looking for a "debate." No matter what I say you have your position, and are closed to any other. If I give a list of scriptures, then you will simply reply with the same plus your commentary on them. So why bother?

My post previously was clarifying Tom's comments as I know him better than you do, as well as where he stands on eschatology. I was simply performing a function as moderator, and defining terms and ideas to help facilitate the discussion.

And no, I don't claim to have all the answers. In fact, I have revised my understanding on a few different issues, on this very forum, after hearing what others had to say.  So please don't play  word games with me like you are "schooling me."

Thanks.

edit** I'm betting Buzz moved and this is him! :D
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 12:36:15 PM by kevingaily »

Offline Quasar

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2007, 02:50:53 PM »
A brief review of of the translation history previously posted on this thread, is the following brief:

Translation History

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) .[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure."

In fact, Jerome' s translation, of the Gtreek Septuagint into the Latin Vulgate  renders "apostasia" with the word "discessio," meaning "to depart" or " departure. "  Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure," by adding a new term, "falling away," without giving any reason why?

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No good reason was ever given.

Blessings,

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2007, 03:26:47 PM »
Kevin,

The Pre-trib rapture is not a fib!  Jesus has promised us when He comes for us to take us with Him - so we can be with Him where He is.  In Jn.14:2-4 - we are told specifically where He is going to take us after He comes to Catch all the rest of us Up,  who belong to Him, and left here on earth alive at His coming.  To meet all those who have died in Him previously over the past 2,000 + years [1 Thes.4:14] - in the clouds of the sky.  In vs 28, He said, "[/B]You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.  If you loved me, you would be glad I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."[/B]

All of us who belong to Him, go to be with Him immediately after our physical [bodily] death. in 2 Cor.5:6-8.  So why would Jesus let the rest of us go through the tribulation if none of the rest of us will have to who die before he returns for us?  And Paul made it very clear in 1 Thes.1:10.

The biggest error for those who fail to understand that Jesus ministry was exclusively to Israel, as He said in Mt.15:24 as well as 10:5-6.  His Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come.  Jesus had followers and believers, who did not become the founders for His Church, out of Israel, until the Holy Spirit arrived at Pentecost in Acts 2:1-3, ten days after His ascension in Acts 1:9.

So all the ministry of Jesus in Mt.24, Mk.13 and Lk.21 was directed to Israel to the answers He gave His disciples about 'when the sign of His coming and the end of the age will be.'  And has nothing whatever to do with a non-existant Church, that had no Holy Spirit then.

Blessings,

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

kevingaily

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2007, 04:29:27 PM »
Quote from: Quasar;40659
Kevin,

The Pre-trib rapture is not a fib!  Jesus has promised us when He comes for us to take us with Him - so we can be with Him where He is.  In Jn.14:2-4 - we are told specifically where He is going to take us after He comes to Catch all the rest of us Up,  who belong to Him, and left here on earth alive at His coming.  To meet all those who have died in Him previously over the past 2,000 + years [1 Thes.4:14] - in the clouds of the sky.  In vs 28, He said, "[/B]You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.  If you loved me, you would be glad I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."[/B]

All of us who belong to Him, go to be with Him immediately after our physical [bodily] death. in 2 Cor.5:6-8.  So why would Jesus let the rest of us go through the tribulation if none of the rest of us will have to who die before he returns for us?  And Paul made it very clear in 1 Thes.1:10.

The biggest error for those who fail to understand that Jesus ministry was exclusively to Israel, as He said in Mt.15:24 as well as 10:5-6.  His Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come.  Jesus had followers and believers, who did not become the founders for His Church, out of Israel, until the Holy Spirit arrived at Pentecost in Acts 2:1-3, ten days after His ascension in Acts 1:9.

So all the ministry of Jesus in Mt.24, Mk.13 and Lk.21 was directed to Israel to the answers He gave His disciples about 'when the sign of His coming and the end of the age will be.'  And has nothing whatever to do with a non-existant Church, that had no Holy Spirit then.

Blessings,

Quasar


I am in agreement. :amen2:

Sorry if muddied the waters with my response to nats. My point was he called me out for clarifying what Tom said, and I hadn't even said what I believed or not.  :D

Offline Quasar

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2007, 12:09:46 AM »
Quote from: nats;40611
Lookie...


Luk 10:17  
And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord,
even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

 

To wit...


Luk 10:18  
And he said unto them,
I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luk 10:19  
Behold, I give unto you power
to tread on serpents and scorpions,
and over all the power of the enemy:
and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Luk 10:20  
Notwithstanding in this rejoice not,
that the spirits are subject unto you;
but rather rejoice,
because your names are written in heaven.





Which are subject unto those who are strong in the Lord with their armor on. Armor is for WAR.


Mat 10:28  
And fear not them which kill the body,
but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


So what are you rapturing away from exactly?



Q:  FYI, Jesus ministry in His first advent was exclusively to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 as well as oin 10:5-6.  His church did not exist until Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3, with the arrival ov the Holy Spirit, ten days after He had ascended into heaven, in Acts 1:9.

See the Scriptural promise of Jesus that He is returning for us, to take us to our Father in heaven, in Jn.14:2-4 and 28!  Paul amplified it in 1 Thes.15, when He wrote, "According to the Lord's own word...", continuing with all of us who are left here on earth alive, being Caught Up to meet Jesus in the clouds of the sky, with all those who previously died in Him over the past 2,000 years plus, from vs 14!

From the dialog in your posts, it appears the above Scriptures might be missing from your Bible.  As the Scriptural proof of the pre-trib rapture has been there from the very time the Scriptures were first written!

The timing of it is covered in 2 Thes.2:1-9, before the antichrist is revealed in vs 3 and 8, the same person who triggers the 70th Week of Dan.9:27/the seven year tribulation.

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Sissy

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2008, 02:51:49 PM »
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



Apostasy, rebellion, covenant breaking, divorce, defection, walking away, abandonment.

αποστασία - apostasia [noun]: "rebellion, defection, apostasy"

αποστασιον - apostasion [noun]: "abandonment, walking away, divorce"

αφίστημι - aphistemi [verb]: "to abandon, to walk away, to refuse to stand firm"

2 Thessalonians 2:3 -
International Standard Version:

  • Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day cannot come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.
New American Standard Bible

  • Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction
King James Version

  • Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition
  • Acts 21:20-21 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.

    Matthew 19:7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?"

    Luke 2:36-37 Now there was one, Anna, a prophetess, a daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; and she was a widow of about eighty-four years, who did not depart from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

    Hebrews 3:12 Watch out, brothers, so that there won't be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart that departs from the living God.

    Acts 12:10 When they had passed the first and second guard, they came to the iron gate that leads into the city, which opened for them by itself; and they went out and went along one street, and immediately the angel departed from him.
Apostasia and apostasion are the feminine and neuter versions of the same word, but they are applied to different situations. They are the noun forms of the verb αφίστημι, which is formed from the words apo (away from) and histemi ("to make a stand, to stand firm, to be unwavering"). The primary difference between the nouns and the verb is that the verb can indicate EITHER PHYSICALLY walking away from an object (such as a house) with no moral implications of any kind OR violating a covenant, where the nouns are only used of walking away from a covenant.

Essentially, these two nouns mean "to walk away when we SHOULD stand firm" or "to abandon those whom we have pledged to stand with unwaveringly." Both words indicate that there was a covenant, and that the covenant has been intentionally and purposely severed by one party in the covenant. Apostasion is applied to abandoning lifelong human covenants (primarily marriage), and apostasia is applied to abandoning lifelong spiritual covenants (that is, intentionally severing a relationship with God, and thus, ABANDONING their salvation). Both are active, intentional, forceful words (one does not "accidentally" divorce a spouse - that is an intentional act that Jesus says is the result of a hard heart, likewise with apostasy).

The KJV translation is unfortunate on two accounts. First, in 2 Thessalonians the noun has the definite article attached to it, meaning it is not "A falling away," but rather, "THE falling away." And secondly, "falling away" is a passive expression in English, where this word is an ACTIVE, INTENTIONAL word in Greek. The KJV could leave the impression that someone might accidentally, or unintentionally "trip and fall." That is not what this word means. Apostasia means that the person knowingly and INTENTIONALLY turns their back, walks away, and completely abandons their covenant with God. "Rebellion," "Covenant Breaking," or "Abandoning" would be better translations.

Obviously, in the same way that you cannot get a divorce unless you are first married, you cannot walk away from a relationship with God unless you are first a believer.

This word clearly illustrates that one CAN intentionally cast away their own salvation. When a person commits "apostasion," (divorce,) obviously the two can be reconciled and remarried. However, the scriptures indicate that is not so with "apostasia." The following passage would now apply to those who have intentionally cast aside their covenant with God, abandoned their salvation, and no longer want anything to do with God.

  • Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
The following scripture uses the VERB form of apostasia (aphistemi), showing the condition of the heart of a person who willfully and intentionally walks away from God:

  • 1 Timothy 4:1-3 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
In reference to the "once saved, always saved" debate, the use of these words show difinitively that one CAN abandon one's salvation intentionally. However, such abandoning does NOT happen accidentally, nor is it the result of what someone else has done, but is an intentional, defiant, rebellious act by a believer who has consciously chosen to abandon the faith in favor of pursuing sin.

Offline Tom

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Re: Pre-Trib Fib
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2008, 03:12:55 PM »
Quote from: nats;40610
Who can stand?

Here it is...

that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

:fear:

Leopards and lions and bears, oh my!


The rapture camp can't be wearing the 'whole armour of God'  
They think they're going to 'fly away' to save their soul?
God's against this 'divine[H7080] divinations[H7081]' isn't He?

Way before 1830.


Nats,

The Tribulation or Great Tribulation is not the wiles of the devil. It is the wrath of God being poured out on the earth. Divine judgement. Opinions are a wonderful thing,.......when they are informed opinions.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

 

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