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Author Topic: Flawed Logic?  (Read 6935 times)

Offline Danny

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Flawed Logic?
« on: November 19, 2007, 04:11:50 PM »
For years I have answered the common question, "Why does God allow evil" by talking about choice.  God gave us the ability to choose, and if He truly gives us freedom to choose, then there certainly is the possibility that we will choose evil or sin.  Wthout that possibility, we're not truly free.  

If my statement above is accurate, then what does that say about heaven?  Heaven is a place free from sin or the possibility of sin.  Does that mean that we will not have the ability to choose in heaven?
« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 07:58:00 AM by Danny »

kevingaily

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Re: Flawed Logic?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2007, 12:32:33 AM »
Eve fell not because of choice, but temptation. In our glorified bodies we will be likened to that perfect person she was yet without the tempter.

This is just my musing but it seems to fit. One must ask the question of would Eve/Adam have fallen had there been no temptation.

I suppose my logic may have holes in it but it's real late and I am beat. :) Let me know what you think of this response and it's strengths and weaknesses.

Offline Danny

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Re: Flawed Logic?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2007, 08:06:21 AM »
kevingaily,

Excellent response.  Perhaps this is one of those things that we may not fully understand while we are here on this earth.  I still wonder, if there would be a possibility for angels to rebel again; or has that been taken care of for eternity?  

Thank you for your response.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Flawed Logic?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2007, 07:01:07 PM »
Depends....

According to a Calvinist, God could very well ordain his creation to sin again for reasons inscrutable to man (since we have no free will).

According to an Arminian, we will be "changed in the twinkling of an eye", and will no longer have the desire to sin, but will be perfected.  The freedom to sin will still be there, but we won't want or even have the desire to...
John O


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Re: Flawed Logic?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2007, 08:16:03 AM »
Quote from: Danny;41186
Perhaps this is one of those things that we may not fully understand while we are here on this earth.  I still wonder, if there would be a possibility for angels to rebel again; or has that been taken care of for eternity?  
I can't speak for angels sinning in the future, but for those of us who are resurrected unto glory -- I don't think we'll ever sin, nay, never again -- because we've lived in a sin sick fallen world that is filled with heartache and pain and death -- and we'll never want to return to the stench of sin because we'll remember how painful it is. :faint:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Zaph

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Re: Flawed Logic?
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2007, 10:05:56 PM »
Quote from: kevingaily;41184
Eve fell not because of choice, but temptation.


I have to disagree with this logic. Because this now gives an excuse for (to) sin. We all know that temptation itself is not a sin but yielding to it is a sin. Eve choose to sin. I understand that the logic in the above statement is that she would not have sinned if she had not been tempted. But when we look at Lucifer's experience in Heaven we have to ask which came first? Temptation or sin?

However, I guess a calvinist would say that she didn't have a choice because she was ordained to sin. When choice is removed love is also removed.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Flawed Logic?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2007, 06:54:20 AM »
Quote from: Zaph;41208
I have to disagree with this logic. Because this now gives an excuse for (to) sin. We all know that temptation itself is not a sin but yielding to it is a sin. Eve choose to sin. I understand that the logic in the above statement is that she would not have sinned if she had not been tempted. But when we look at Lucifer's experience in Heaven we have to ask which came first? Temptation or sin?

However, I guess a calvinist would say that she didn't have a choice because she was ordained to sin. When choice is removed love is also removed.


Amen, which is the one of the major faults of Calvinism (IMHO) :D
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Re: Flawed Logic?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2007, 07:48:34 AM »
I have a Catholic friend who believes that Calvinism is heresy -- and he knows I'm a self-avowed Catholic, which leads to some VERY interesting in-person conversations, usually over a meal, to include last nights supper at Chilis restaurant! I always try to tread carefully, so as to not anger him or be argumentative! :boxing: :madgrin:

Anyways...

It seems like a question between "predestined" and "foreknowledge" separates Calvinism from all the other beliefs.  The Armenians say that just because God foreknew something doesn't mean that he ordained, encouraged or wanted it to happen.  The Calvinist says that everything, to include evil, was ordained, encouraged and wanted in order to fulfill His will.  Both Armenians and Calvinists believe that evil will ultimately be thrown into the lake of fire aka abolished.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Flawed Logic?
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2007, 09:03:14 AM »
Quote from: me again;41216
I have a Catholic friend who believes that Calvinism is heresy -- and he knows I'm a self-avowed Catholic,


You've converted to Catholicism?  :jaw:
John O


kevingaily

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Re: Flawed Logic?
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2007, 11:54:20 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;41220
You've converted to Catholicism?  :jaw:


ROFL I saw that too! :laughhard

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Re: Flawed Logic?
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2007, 04:00:18 PM »
Naw, I haven't converted to Catholicism, but I try to keep an open mind to understand the historical reasons for Catholicism's current teachings.  Their dogmas are rooted in history and it's important to understand how and why Catholic dogmas came into existence.  

When I was young, I adamently rejected the Lord Jesus Christ and, subsequently, when I died I entered the pit (it's a long story).  Since the Lord allowed me to return to the land of the living, I try to keep an open mind to all denominational teachings.  That doesn't mean that I accept all of the various denominational teachings, but I try not to be quick to reject all the various teachings (without studying them first, which can take years).  

Yes, I have a Catholic friend who is deeply convicted by his fath in Catholicism; his brother is in seminary to be a Catholic priest! :madgrin: :lol:

Someday when we all get to heaven, it will be interesting to finally understand all these various denominational teachings and how they all came into existence; some are fraudulent heresies and others are truths, but we won't know the whole truth until we get to heaven! :noidea:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Danny

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Re: Flawed Logic?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2007, 09:53:32 PM »
Quote from: me again;41224
Naw, I haven't converted to Catholicism, but I try to keep an open mind to understand the historical reasons for Catholicism's current teachings.  Their dogmas are rooted in history and it's important to understand how and why Catholic dogmas came into existence.  

When I was young, I adamently rejected the Lord Jesus Christ and, subsequently, when I died I entered the pit (it's a long story).  Since the Lord allowed me to return to the land of the living, I try to keep an open mind to all denominational teachings.  That doesn't mean that I accept all of the various denominational teachings, but I try not to be quick to reject all the various teachings (without studying them first, which can take years).  

Yes, I have a Catholic friend who is deeply convicted by his fath in Catholicism; his brother is in seminary to be a Catholic priest! :madgrin: :lol:

Someday when we all get to heaven, it will be interesting to finally understand all these various denominational teachings and how they all came into existence; some are fraudulent heresies and others are truths, but we won't know the whole truth until we get to heaven! :noidea:




Wow, I can't speak for anyone else; but if you have the time, I would love to hear more!

Offline me again

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Re: Flawed Logic?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2007, 06:35:55 AM »
Quote from: Danny;41233
Wow, I can't speak for anyone else; but if you have the time, I would love to hear more!
Sure! :juggle:

At the age of 17, I was an atheist and, as such, I believed that when we died we ceased to exist -- forever.  I believed that when we died, we had no consciousness and there was never any "life after death."  Shortly before my death, a young teenage girl proselytized me and she said "What about Jesus?," but I completely rejected Him and said to her, "If he's real, then let Him appear before me!" :eek:

Because of personal shame, I'd rather not elaborate on how I died, but just the events of the death experience.  I was laying down and I (the spirit me) was suddenly catapulted from my mortal body and I found myself falling down a pitch black vertical tunnel.  The tunnel's diameter was probably about 12-15 feet.  The air felt cool and damp as it breezed passed my face and I was inwardly given a message and was told that there was an exit at the very bottom of the tunnel that lead to:
1. eternity
2. final judgment
I was told that once I exited the tunnel, then THAT WAS IT and my fate was sealed forever!  Words do not adequately describe the terror of this and the terror that ensured and I cried out to the Lord and screamed: "Lord! Lord! I know You're real now! Please give me a second chance!" and ***POOF*** He did give me a second chance and I suddenly found myself back in my body! But would you believe that after all that, I STILL did not believe what I had just experienced?  I opened my mortal eyes and I mumbled, "Boy, what a dream!" and then ***POOF*** the Lord re-catapulted me back into the tunnel and I re-experienced everything for a second time.  :nervous:

I was told, again, that once I exited the tunnel, then THAT WAS IT and my fate was sealed forever!  The terror of the situation re-ensued and I again cried out to the Lord, "Lord! Lord! I know You're real now! Please give me a second chance!" and then ***POOF*** He did give me a chance, again, and I suddenly found myself back in my body.  

I was alive, but I had never read the bible and I wasn't indoctrinated into the basic tenants of Christianity.  My mother claimed to be a Catholic, but nobody in our household had ever told me about "Jesus."  I must have looked like fresh meat because just about every cult that you can imagine approached me and they all quoted scriptures (usually out of context) to support their belief systems, but since I had never read the bible, I didn't know if the context of the scriptures was correct, so I began reading the bible for myself from cover-to-cover.  It took four years to read it.  It took a long time because I read it slow and had to re-read many portions of it.  It was the KJV and the Old English in some sections of the Old Testament can be quite challenging and, hence, the slow re-reading of much of it.

After reading the bible, I struggled with whether I could or would enter the kingdom of heaven because, after all, I was a pretty bad person, as was evidenced by my entrance into the pit.  If I weren't a bad person, then why was I allowed to enter the pit's tunnel?  Obviously, I was extraordinarily bad.  That's what I struggled with.  I finally said to the Lord, "Lord, I guess I'm going to heaven because the bible says that if we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ with all our hearts, then we will be saved" and then the Lord abruptly spoke back to me and said, "You will enter the kingdom of heaven."  From that day until now, I have not doubted my salvation -- not one bit! It's all because of Jesus!!!! :madgrin: :nod:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

kevingaily

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Re: Flawed Logic?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2007, 06:35:43 PM »
Thanks for sharing that. It's amazing to see how God's love of people allows for awesome(and at times terrifying) experiences in His efforts to reach into our lives and save us!

Offline Tom

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Re: Flawed Logic?
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2007, 03:13:05 PM »
Quote from: Zaph;41208

However, I guess a calvinist would say that she didn't have a choice because she was ordained to sin. When choice is removed love is also removed.


No, A Calvinist would say that Eve is fully responsible for her sin. The reason it took as long for Adam and Eve to sin when they did was because there was only one sin that could be committed at the time. Eating the forbidden fruit. The reason Eve chose to sin is that mankind in the flesh it totally depraved. Apart from the regeneration of the Spirit man will never choose God, His ways or good. (See Romans 3:10-18)

What is God's purpose in allowing sin? Sin, and the necessity of our deliverance from it is the basis of our relationship with God. In order for man to even be able to begin to understand God's holiness he must have some idea of the opposite of holiness. Just as we would not understand light if we did not know darkness, holiness would have no meaning to us if we did not know sin. This is the purpose of the law. It demonstrates the necessity of a Saviour to those who can see it.

Romans 7:8-9 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every form of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.  

Paul goes on in verses 24 and 25, "What a wretched man I am? Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God -through Jesus Christ our Lord.


The ability to see your sin, believe the cammnadment is the gift of God through the Holy Spirit. Only the Spirit can convict of sin and impart saving faith. Scripture states that faith itself is the gift of God.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works so that no one can boast.
 

We will be sinless when we are in heaven because we will be transformed. Paul writes that the corruptible will become the incorruptible. The sin that lives within all mankind will be removed from those who inherit the Kingdom of God and we will finally and truly become like Christ. 1 Cor. 15:49 And just as we have borne the likeness of earthly man, so shal we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

This verse sums it up.

1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of the sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

 

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