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Author Topic: Where are the Children of God Now?  (Read 2514 times)

Offline Danny

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Where are the Children of God Now?
« on: January 27, 2008, 08:25:24 PM »
When we receive Jesus as Lord and Savior, we are saved!  Jesus will return and at that time we will receive new bodies that will be like Him, and we will spend eternity with Him.  My question is, where are the believers who have passed away right now?  Do they have physical bodies, or are they existing in spirit?  Are there any passages that speak to this?

Offline me again

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Re: Where are the Children of God Now?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2008, 06:23:59 AM »
The bible gives a couple of illustrations about where dead people go after death, but prior to the resurrection.  
  • Jesus described Lazarius and the rich man as being in a specific location after their mortal death.  
  • Likewise, the incident between Saul and Samuel with the witch of Endor indicate that Samuel was in a specific location when he was "disquieted" by the witch (he was dead, if you haven't read the story).  
  • Lastly, the souls of the righteous are under the alter of God (in the book of Revelation) and they are asking the Lord how long it will be before He executes His righteous judgment on the earth.
Those bible passages are available upon request.  :director:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Zaph

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Re: Where are the Children of God Now?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2008, 05:42:18 PM »
Oh-boy... talk about opening a can of worms again. :)

Me again, knows the angle that I'm coming from so I'll have to disagree with him on his 3 points.

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6  Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4  His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psa 115:17  The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Gen 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 12:7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The same Hebrew word here that was rendered as "spirit" is also rendered as "breath" in other passages. The old testament refers to death as a sleep hundreds of times and so did Jesus when Lazarus His friend that He raised up again.

In short those who have died no longer have physical bodies because they have returned to dust just as the Bible says. And their spirit is not some kind ghostly intelligent being but is simply the ability to live.

It takes two things to make a living conscious being. It takes a body (dust of the ground) and it takes the breath of God.
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Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Just like when you turn the switch on in a room. There is no light unless there is both a bulb and electricity.

Offline Danny

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Re: Where are the Children of God Now?
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2008, 09:51:55 AM »
Quote from: Zaph;41618
Oh-boy... talk about opening a can of worms again. :)

Me again, knows the angle that I'm coming from so I'll have to disagree with him on his 3 points.

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6  Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Psa 146:4  His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psa 115:17  The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Gen 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 12:7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The same Hebrew word here that was rendered as "spirit" is also rendered as "breath" in other passages. The old testament refers to death as a sleep hundreds of times and so did Jesus when Lazarus His friend that He raised up again.

In short those who have died no longer have physical bodies because they have returned to dust just as the Bible says. And their spirit is not some kind ghostly intelligent being but is simply the ability to live.

It takes two things to make a living conscious being. It takes a body (dust of the ground) and it takes the breath of God.

Just like when you turn the switch on in a room. There is no light unless there is both a bulb and electricity.


Zaph,

Are you suggesting that those who  have passed away simply cease to exist until the resurrection?  If so, then how do you react to the passages that Me Again cited?

Offline Zaph

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Re: Where are the Children of God Now?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2008, 04:13:27 PM »
Quote from: Danny;41661
Zaph, Are you suggesting that those who  have passed away simply cease to exist until the resurrection?  If so, then how do you react to the passages that Me Again cited?


I'm not suggesting it. That is what Bible says. If someone believes that people who die go straight to Heaven or hell they'll have to deal to deal with the passages that I have cited also. I will deal with Me again's passage in a minute. For now look at this...

The popular belief is that people are immortal. Most believe that even when you die you don't really die but you go to Heaven or hell. We are not giving immortality until Christ comes. Look this...

Quote
1Co 15:51  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


Even Paul calls death a sleep. If you didn't really die like the devil claimed back in the garden of Eden then the grave really has no sting and in reality it's a reward but in these verses Paul says that death has a sting and the grave will be robbed of it's supposed victory.

Only God has immortality. Again coming from Paul...
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1Ti 6:14  That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15  Which in his times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16  Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.  


Now for those passages you asking about. In Luke 16:20-31 Jesus tells us a story of the rich man and a poor man named Lazarus. Just Christ often did in the Bible He told a parable to get a point across. This is not a literal story. This story is not a commentary on death but a commentary on unbelief in Christ and in the prophets. If this were a literal story... how do angels put people literally into Abraham's bosom. It has to be symbolic to get illustrate a point.

The other passage about Saul and the witch of Endor can be found in 1 Samuel 28:7-25.  First of all this is an evil practice that was out lawed and she should have been dead and just because Saul thought he saw Samuel doesn't mean it was Samuel. It says that the " And Saul perceived that it was Samuel," The devil is the father of lies and if he has to transform himself into an angel of light (see 2 Corth. 11:14) to deceive you he will. This is nothing more than a seance. Saul was fooled into thinking he was talking with Samuel. He'd rather go to the devil for direction than obey the Lord.

Now for the souls under the altar. This can be found in Revelation 6:9,10 It is intersting to me what believe will do with the book of Revelation. They pick and choose what is literal and what is symbolic. Let's think about this for a minute. What are the souls doing under the alter? I thought that they went straight to Heaven? This is again symbolic. Just like when God told Cain that Abel's blood cried out to Him (see Gen. 4:10). Did the blood literally cry out to God?

Here is the first lie ever told to a human.
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Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


How do we know it's a lie? Because if it was the truth then God is the liar since earlier in Gen. He said this...
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Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Offline Danny

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Re: Where are the Children of God Now?
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2008, 05:52:50 PM »
So, Jesus is telling a parable about a man named Lazarus which takes place after the resurrection; and, there are still people on earth?  Isn't this a bit problematic?

Offline Zaph

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Re: Where are the Children of God Now?
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2008, 11:19:06 PM »
Problematic?? I'm not sure why you'd think that.

I never said when or how this takes place. It's a simple story to point out their unbelief in Christ and the prophets. Besides.. I'll ask the question again. If this is literal then how do all the people literally go inside Abraham's bosom? And if it is literal then that means we'll be able to talk to our friends and relatives who are in hell while we're in Heaven. Which is an interesting in that according to the Bible that death is the wages of sin not an immortal life.

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Mal 4:1  For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2  But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.


Quote
Psa 37:20  But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psa 6:5  For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psa 13:3  Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;


Quote
Act 2:29  Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day. .....
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,


The fact is that both Christ and Paul and the writers of the OT referred to death as a sleep.

Online John Oscar

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Re: Where are the Children of God Now?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2008, 08:19:31 AM »
Two things-

One- When Jesus told that parable, I don't think He meant it to be largely symbolic.  Being God He knew that we and thousands of others would have this discussion 2,000 years later and argue about its veracity.  Jesus meant what He said- this is a true condition of what we face upon death, especially if you take into my consideration my second point-

Two- this verse

2 Cor 5:8-10 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Couple that with Christ's words on the cross, and the testimony of the early church fathers as to His meaning, and we come away with some type of intermediate stage where our consciousness is present with God after death, even while our body is waiting to be renewed.

One of the most important points in fundamental exegesis is taken the bible for what it says, unless it’s obvious it’s being poetic or symbolic (like “hills singing for joy”)
John O


Offline me again

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Re: Where are the Children of God Now?
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2008, 09:11:37 AM »
Quote from: Danny;41678
So, Jesus is telling a parable about a man named Lazarus which takes place after the resurrection; and, there are still people on earth?  Isn't this a bit problematic?
Yes, I agree with you that it's problematic. :nod:

In the story of Lazarus and the rich man:

1. The concept of "life immediately after the death of the mortal body" is not a Satanic idea.  If the idea were from Satan, then the Lord Jesus Christ would not[/b] have presented the idea in the story of Lazarus and the rich man! The Lord Jesus Christ presented the idea of "life immediately after the death of the mortal body"!!! If the idea was from Satan, then Jesus wouldn't present it for consumption!!! Jesus said it!!! :madgrin: :eek:

2.  The rich man begged to return to the land of the living so that he could warn his brothers that there IS life after the death of the mortal body, but he was denied because "even if one were to rise from the dead, they still will not believe."  I corroborate that testimony because when I returned from the dead, most people don't believe it.  It's a real place that we're all destined for.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Zaph

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Re: Where are the Children of God Now?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2008, 03:56:33 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;41682
One of the most important points in fundamental exegesis is taken the bible for what it says, unless it’s obvious it’s being poetic or symbolic (like “hills singing for joy”)


I completely agree.

 

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