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Author Topic: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?  (Read 12755 times)

Offline Quasar

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Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« on: April 25, 2009, 10:25:51 AM »
Hi guys,

Consider the following Scriptural description of God/Father/Holy Spirit/Son:

1. What is God? He is Spirit, according to Jesus, in Jn.4:24 and Paul, in 2 Cor.3:17-18. That no one has ever seen Him and that He is invisible, are found in Jn.1:18; Col.1:15 and in 1 Jn.4:12.

2. God, who is Spirit according to the Scriptures, is also Holy, according to Lev.11:44-45 and 1 zPet.1:15-16. Therefore, God is the Holy Spirit according to the Scriptures!

3. There was only one God throughout the entire OT according to Isa.43:10 and 44:6. That rules out the Son being co-eternal with God, the Holy Spirit. Though the time of his presence is address below.

4. The origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus, who did not become the Son, until in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35, is found in Pr.8:22-36, of which I quote the first four verses of it:

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24] NIV

when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world." [Vs 24-26]

Confirmed in Col.1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." As well as in Gen.1:26, 11:7; Jn.1:1-2 and 17:5.

5. In vs 30 of the Pr.8 text is the following: NIV

"when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day," [Vs 29-30]

Confirmed in Jn.1:1-3 and Col.1:16-18.

6. The Holy Spirit, who is the One and Only [Isa.43:10 and 44:6] God, not only stated He was the Father of Israel , in Dt.32:6, but also prophecied He was going to be the Father of a Son, in: 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Which was fulfilled in Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and 2:7. Therefore, there is no option to the Scriptural fact: God, the Holy Spirit was/is the Father of Jesus Christ. And gave a body to the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus. Confirming Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5.

7. The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus then became the incarnate Son of God, and received His name, Jesus, in Lk.1:35. Literally, God the Son, fulfilling the prophecy of the Holy Spirit, in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. Empowered to give/baptise with the Holy Spirit, according to Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33. To perform 36 miracles, of raising some from the dead, healing people with terminal illnesses as well as the blind and the deaf. Which no normal human being could ever do.

8. The term Father, given to God, the Holy Spirit, is nothing more than the very same title all men have who have children of their own! It does not constitute making him a second person of the very same person, any more than making God, the Holy Spirit and the Father, two separate "persons."


Blessings,

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Zaph

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2009, 12:57:22 PM »
So tell us clearly what you believe concerning the trinity Godhead in your own words please.

Offline me again

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2009, 04:24:45 PM »
Quote from: Zaph;43907
So tell us clearly what you believe concerning the trinity Godhead in your own words please.
Your question is directed to Quasar, but I'm chomping at the bit to say something. I can't help it! :madgrin:

I don't understand the trinity and, as such, I rarely comment on it. All I know is that the the only way to get to the Father is through the Lord Jesus Christ. Furthermore, Jesus told his disciples that when they saw Him, they saw the Father. :eyebrows:

The bottom line is that no one gets to heaven, except through Jesus. :tip:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2009, 09:23:35 AM »
Hi Zaph,

Those are my own words.  They describe God according to the Scriptures, not by the man made belief system of men who didn't know any better at the time.  By some of the church fathers, beginning in the late 3rd century, fought over from the 4th century till the 5th, nearly 100 years, before the tri God belief system won out over the other heretical views and was ratified into the RCC.

There are two major falacies to the trinitarian belief system.  They fall first into describing who/what God is:  According to the Scriptures, He is Spirit, according to 1. in my OP.  According to 2. of the OP above, there is no option to the fact that He is Holy and therefore, He is the Holy Spirit.

There is no argument, until Jesus was born, there was but one God, according to 3. of theOP above.  But by the testimony of the Father, He called Jesus God/Lord in Ps.45:6-7 and 110:1.  When it had been fulfilled, it was repeated in Mt.22:44 and in Heb.1:5.

Therefore, there is no option to the fact that the one and only true God, according to Jn.17:3, who is the Holy Spirit, is also the Father, according to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35, which is nothing more than the same title all men have who sire children of their own.  It does not make them two persons as is the case with trinitarians.  


The second fallacy is what they do with Jesus, making Him co-eternal with the Father.  When His pre-incarnate origin is recorded in the personification of God's wisdom, in Pr.8:22-36, as the WHO of the Father's wisdom, knowledge and power, as revealed in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3.  Confirmed in Col.1:15 as the FIRSTBORN over all creation [Before the world began].  As well as in Jn.1:1-2 and 17:5.  A father and his children/sons never occur in the same generation.  Jesus also said His Father is greater than He in Jn.14:28.

That He did not receive His deity until Mary conceived Him by the Holy Spirit, when the Father lived within Him, according to Jesus statement in Jn.14:10-11.  Jesus said His Father lives within Him; obviously the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus knew was His Father.

That clearly reveals the dilution of our Bibles by unscrupulous men who found it necessary to alter the Scriptures in order to "prove" their belief system of a triune God, in Mt.28:19 and 1 Jn.5:7.  The one in Mt. was obviously altered, because it makes the Father and the Holy Spirit, two of their three person bogus Godhead.   Jesus knew His Father was/is God, the Holy Spirit and what has been altered does nothing but make Him out to be a liar!  

Baptism was done in the name of Jesus only, as documented in Acts 2:38, confirming Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33, in addition to Acts.2:1-3, which was the Holy Spirit through Jesus.  As seen in 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn. 4:13.

For more, see:  http://theologyreview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5455

Hope this provides the information you are looking for.

Blessings,

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2009, 11:27:01 AM »
Quasar,

You said- "They fall first into describing who/what God is: According to the Scriptures, He is Spirit, according to 1. in my OP. According to 2. of the OP above, there is no option to the fact that He is Holy and therefore, He is the Holy Spirit."

God also calls and describes himself as jealous, provider, shepherd, healer, Lord of Hosts, ect.   By your logic then, there isn't a trinity at all, but a multiheaded diety (think Kali in Hinduism).

You said- "That He did not receive His deity until Mary conceived Him by the Holy Spirit, when the Father lived within Him, according to Jesus statement in Jn.14:10-11. Jesus said His Father lives within Him; obviously the Holy Spirit, whom Jesus knew was His Father."

The only places I've heard that is from the Watchtower Society.  Even the Oneness people believe Jesus was God before his incarnation...
John O


Offline Zaph

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2009, 03:35:02 PM »
There are other problems with idea that Jesus wasn't God until Mary gave birth. Paul clearly tells us that Christ was the rock that the hebrews drank from in the desert in the OT.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3  And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2009, 04:51:20 PM »
Quote from: Zaph;43922
There are other problems with idea that Jesus wasn't God until Mary gave birth. Paul clearly tells us that Christ was the rock that the hebrews drank from in the desert in the OT.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3  And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.



Why are there any problems with the fact that Jesus wasn't God during the OT?  The Scriptures in Isa.43:10 and 44:6 make it clear that He wasn't.  He was the FIRSTBORN over all creation, before the world began.  He was also the Craftsman at God's side during the creation according to Pr.8:30.

Theophanies of Him are spread throughout the OT.

Blessings,

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2009, 05:48:46 PM »
Theophanies are defined as the physical manifistation of a deity.  Note the word deity.
John O


Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2009, 11:56:06 PM »
As I previously posted, that would contradict Isa.43:10 and 44:6 then, would it not?

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2009, 05:59:14 AM »
Umm, no.  The first quote in it's immediate context talks of Israel.  The second talks about God.  There not even a glimpse of Jesus in either unless you do some serious hermonutical backflips.
John O


Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2009, 11:50:14 PM »
Quote from: John Oscar;43929
Umm, no.  The first quote in it's immediate context talks of Israel.  The second talks about God.  There not even a glimpse of Jesus in either unless you do some serious hermonutical backflips.



Q:  What I have written pertaining to Isa.43:10 and 44:6, is to point out there was clearly a one and only God in OT times.  The Pre-incarnate Jesus described in Pr.8:22-36 is seen [IMO] in appearances throughout the OT, but was not a deity until He became the incarnate Jesus in the NT.  My use of the term "theophany" in that sense would be incorrect, under that view.  My apology!

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Aner

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2009, 10:18:08 PM »
Quote
What I have written pertaining to Isa.43:10 and 44:6, is to point out there was clearly a one and only God in OT times.


Just a side note - there is clearly one and only one God in NT times as well -

ICor8:6, Jn17:3 define the one God as - the Father.  Period.


BTW re: the "wisdom" reference in Prov 8 - this is strictly metaphorical and has nothing to do with the actual person of Jesus Christ.  I know that traditionalists will sometimes do funny things with this verse - but it is pretty obvioius poetry.

Best,
Aner

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2009, 10:36:56 AM »
Quote from: Aner;43966
Just a side note - there is clearly one and only one God in NT times as well -

ICor8:6, Jn17:3 define the one God as - the Father.  Period.


BTW re: the "wisdom" reference in Prov 8 - this is strictly metaphorical and has nothing to do with the actual person of Jesus Christ.  I know that traditionalists will sometimes do funny things with this verse - but it is pretty obvioius poetry.

Best,
Aner



Q:  As it is with all trinitarians, every effort is made to sweep Pr.8:22-36 under the carpet, because it busts their doctrine completely.  FYI, the following annotation comes from the 1967 Scofield translation of the KJV:  

"That wisdom is more than the personification of an attribute of God, or of the will of God as best for man, but is a distinct foreshadowing of Christ is certain.  Proverbs 8:22-36, with Jn.1:1-3; 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:3 [And Co.1:15], can refer to no one less than the eternal Son of God."

Endorsed by the following Editorial Committee:

A. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School.

B. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute.

C. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary.

D. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology.

E. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible.

F. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary.

G. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes.

H. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary.

I. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible.

J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D., Chairman.


As for The issue pertaining to the one God of the OT, the following testimony came from the Father, contradicting the fact that there was to be more than one God in the NT, in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14.

It suggests one of two things, that you do not see Jesus as God, as most all trinitarians do see Him, or that you are suggesting the Father and the Son are one and each the same person.  Which is it?

In addition to that, the Scriptures clearly reveal that God is the Holy spirit, as seen in Jn.1:18, 4:24; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12.  Together with: Lev.11:44-45 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.

He is the One and Only God according to Isa.43:10 and 44:6, and therefore, there is no option as to the Scriptural fact that God, who is the Holy Spirit, is also the Father of Jesus Christ, according to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.

The term "Father" is nothing but the same title all men receive after they have sired children of their own.

Blessings,

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Zaph

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2009, 03:13:02 PM »
Quasar, at least for me, don't bother referencing theologians for backup. They have little weight in my eyes and references from the Scofield bible carries even less weight.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2009, 08:02:30 PM »
Quasar,

You are either ignoring or don't understand the hermeneutical truth of progressive revelation.  Starting with Genesis 1:1 and ending in Revelation, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are progressively illuminated until their complete charactor, or at least as much as we can understand this side of eternity, is revealed.

Most of your posts can be easily explained using a truth that is taught in theology 101.
John O


 

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