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Author Topic: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?  (Read 12756 times)

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2009, 12:33:04 AM »
Quote from: Zaph;43976
Quasar, at least for me, don't bother referencing theologians for backup. They have little weight in my eyes and references from the Scofield bible carries even less weight.



Q:  The purpose of those people I listed is to reveal to all who think what I post is my belief alone, is mistaken.  There are others who share the same views as I do.  Whether you do or not.

Blessings,

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2009, 01:16:15 AM »
Quote from: John Oscar;43977
Quasar,

You are either ignoring or don't understand the hermeneutical truth of progressive revelation.  Starting with Genesis 1:1 and ending in Revelation, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are progressively illuminated until their complete charactor, or at least as much as we can understand this side of eternity, is revealed.

Most of your posts can be easily explained using a truth that is taught in theology 101.



Q:  I know you fully believe that, John, but your assessment of my understanding of the Scriptural description of God is false.  The errors began when it was first introduced back in the late 2nd century by Tertulian and expanded by a few other church fathers through the 5th century.  With all due respect, it has no Scriptural foundationBlessings.

See the facts in my OP.

Quasar at all.

"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Zaph

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2009, 08:04:15 AM »
Quote from: Quasar;43985
There are others who share the same views as I do.  Whether you do or not.


And if I referenced all the people that believe the same as I do, would that change your mind? Or give my beliefs any more weight with you?

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2009, 03:48:55 PM »
Quote from: Zaph;43988
And if I referenced all the people that believe the same as I do, would that change your mind? Or give my beliefs any more weight with you?



Go ahead and list as many as you want.  All those I listed were trinitarians to the best of my knowledge, but they all knew Pr.8:22-36 referred to the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus, which is the point.

After 45 years believing as you do, is when I ended doing so in the study for what the Scriptures reveal as the description of God/Father/Son/Holy Spirit.

That it is more important to you to believe in the trin viewpoint rather than seek the Scriptural facts without prejudice, that's your prerogative.

See:  http://ifaith.m9studios.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1170

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Zaph

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2009, 09:57:10 PM »
Quote from: Quasar;43992
That it is more important to you to believe in the trin viewpoint rather than seek the Scriptural facts without prejudice, that's your prerogative.Quasar


Quasar, let's not be jumping to conclusions about how someone studies the scriptures and their motives for doing so.

What you don't know is that at one time in my life I did question the doctrine of the Godhead. I don't like to use the word "trinity" as it comes with some baggage.

All I was saying is that listing "heavy weights" that agree with me would not change your mind. Nor would I expect it to and to be honest, it would be a little disappointing if it.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2009, 12:49:19 AM »
Quote from: Zaph;43993
Quasar, let's not be jumping to conclusions about how someone studies the scriptures and their motives for doing so.

What you don't know is that at one time in my life I did question the doctrine of the Godhead. I don't like to use the word "trinity" as it comes with some baggage.

All I was saying is that listing "heavy weights" that agree with me would not change your mind. Nor would I expect it to and to be honest, it would be a little disappointing if it.



Q:  Let's not get defensive over a stated fact, not a conclusion.  That you question the validity of the trinitarian belief system is no different than I did for 45 years.  So join the club.

See:  http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/doctrine/The%20Origin%20of%20the%20Trinity.htm

Quasar
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 08:32:42 AM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Brotherdavid

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2009, 03:03:27 PM »
The trinity is a false teaching.....
Most trinitarians used the terms: *God the Father (which is in the Bible)
*God the Son(is not in the Bible, not a Bible concept !!)-- The Bible uses the title:Son of God.
*God the Holy Ghost(also, is not a term used in Scripture) The Bible uses the title:Holy Ghost. Wording is of the utmost importance when dealing with the Scriptures. Even Eve in the Garden of Eden thought she could improve on the Word by adding to it.
This is tri-theism, the worship of three gods.

Brotherdavid

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2009, 03:23:39 PM »
Why are there any problems with the fact that Jesus wasn't God during the OT?
(as posted by Quasar)

God is Eternal-Not created
There was never a time when God ceased being God !! When you say Jesus, there is Son of God and Son of man. God robed Himself in flesh and dwelled among us.
The dual nature of Jesus as the "Son" is: He had an earthly mother and a heavenly Father. As God He was Eternal and not created (Jehovah) As man He was begotten by a divine conception through the virgin Mary at Bethlehem.
The very name of Jesus means: Jehovah our Savior. When Thomas put his hands through Jesus' hands and side, he said:"My Lord and my God."
He was the God-man, 100% God and 100% flesh.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2009, 09:31:50 AM »
Quote from: Brotherdavid;44037
Why are there any problems with the fact that Jesus wasn't God during the OT?
(as posted by Quasar)

God is Eternal-Not created
There was never a time when God ceased being God !! When you say Jesus, there is Son of God and Son of man. God robed Himself in flesh and dwelled among us.
The dual nature of Jesus as the "Son" is: He had an earthly mother and a heavenly Father. As God He was Eternal and not created (Jehovah) As man He was begotten by a divine conception through the virgin Mary at Bethlehem.
The very name of Jesus means: Jehovah our Savior. When Thomas put his hands through Jesus' hands and side, he said:"My Lord and my God."
He was the God-man, 100% God and 100% flesh.



Q:  1. What is God? He is Spirit, according to Jesus, in Jn.4:24 and Paul, in 2 Cor.3:17-18. That no one has ever seen Him and that He is invisible, are found in Jn.1:18; Col.1:15 and in 1 Jn.4:12.

2. God, who is Spirit according to the Scriptures, is also Holy, according to Lev.11:44-45 and 1 Pet.1:15-16. Therefore, God is the Holy Spirit according to the Scriptures!

3. There was only one God throughout the entire OT according to Isa.43:10 and 44:6. That rules out the Son being co-eternal with God, the Holy Spirit.  Though the time of his presence is address below.

4. The origin of the pre-incarnated Jesus, who did not become the Son, until in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35, is found in Pr.8:22-36, of which I quote the first four verses of it:

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24] NIV

when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world." [Vs 24-26]

Confirmed in Col.1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." As well as in Gen.1:26, 11:7; Jn.1:1-2 and 17:5.

5. In vs 30 of the Pr.8 text is the following: NIV

"when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day," [Vs 29-30]

Confirmed in Jn.1:1-3 and Col.1:16-18.

6. The Holy Spirit, who is the One and Only [Isa.43:10 and 44:6] God, not only stated He was the Father of Israel , in Dt.32:6, but also prophecied He was going to be the Father of a Son, in: 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Which was fulfilled in Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and 2:7. Therefore, there is no option to the Scriptural fact: God, the Holy Spirit was/is the Father of Jesus Christ. And gave a body to the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus. Confirming Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5.

7. The pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus then became the incarnated Son of God, and received His name, Jesus, in Lk.1:35. Literally, God the Son, fulfilling the prophecy of the Holy Spirit, in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. Empowered to give/baptise with the Holy Spirit, according to Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33. To perform 36 miracles, of raising some from the dead, healing people with terminal illnesses as well as the blind and the deaf. Which no normal human being could ever do.

8. The term Father, given to God, the Holy Spirit, is nothing more than the very same title all men have who have children of their own! It does not constitute making him a second person of the very same person, any more than making God, the Holy Spirit and the Father, two separate "persons."


Blessings,

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Brotherdavid

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2009, 01:03:31 PM »
If the denial of the trinity is one thing that constitutes a cult, then.....
1) Where did Jesus ever teach of a trinity ?
2) Where did the Apostles ever teach of a trinity ?
3) Where is just ONE Bible verse that states of a trinity ?, triune God ?, God in three persons ?, Or any other number than ONE ?
4) Where in the Bible is the terms: "God The Son" ? -or- "God The Holy Ghost" ?

When we draw from councils, creeds, and doctrines of men instead of the Bible as sole source, confusion is birthed.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2009, 12:34:37 AM »
The key to the description of God/Father/Son/Holy Spirit that contradicts the doctrine of the Trinity is:

1.  The Scriptures declare God is the Holy spirit:  Spirit in : In Jn.4:24; 2 Cor.3:17-18; and inferred in Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12.  Holy in:  Lev.11:44-45 and 1 Pet.1:15-16 among other places.

2.  He is the One and Only God in: Isa.43:10 and 44:6.

3.  Our One and Only God, who is the Holy Spirit, is also the Father of Jesus Christ, according to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.  The term father, is the very same one all men receive when they sire children of their own, as God, who is the Holy Spirit sired Jesus through the virgin Mary.  Fulfilling His prophecies in 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and Ps.2:7.

Jesus said His Father lives in Him, clearly revealing, His Father is the Holy Spirit, in Jn.14:10.

4.  The origin of the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus is recorded in Pr.8:22-36, as being "brought forth" as the first of God's works, before the world began, the firstborn over all creation, in Col.1:15.

5.  According to the testimony of God, Jesus is declared God in Ps.45:6-7; Ps.110:1 and Isa.7:14.  When fulfilled it was repeated in Mt.1:23; 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9.

Blessings,

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

eegles2003

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2009, 06:29:24 AM »
guys if you are arguing Jesus's equality with God then why were the pharisees wanting to get rid of him?

Brotherdavid

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2009, 01:13:35 PM »
eegles2003 Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
guys if you are arguing Jesus's equality with God then why were the pharisees wanting to get rid of him?  
I think you misunderstood ......,
 Jesus IS God !!.... He is the First and the Last (not second), He is the Alpha and Omega, He is the beginning and the ending.
There is NO other God !! There is NO God beside Him !!
Colossians 2:9- For in HIM (Not Them !!) dwelleth ALL the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Jesus is either Lord of all, or He is not Lord at all !!

Just show ONE scripture that speaks of God in three persons, a triune God, or a trinity ..... Show where Jesus confirmed and taught this hoax, or show where in the scriptures where the Apostles taught or preached this, especially the acceptance of the trinity being essential for salvation.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2009, 01:59:54 PM »
That is actually pretty easy.  I gave my teenage daughter (14 years old) this assignment, and she came up with these-

(Jesus said) Matt 28:19-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus speaks of all three person's (seperately) of the Godhead in His upper room discourse-

Distinction between Father and Son-
John 14:6-7 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

Holy Spirit- John 14:16-21 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever —   17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.  18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. 19 Indwelling of the Father and the Son  "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.  20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.  21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
 

(Apostle John said)- 1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit

(Apostle Paul said)-
1 Cor 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The entire 1st chapter of Colossians is a treatise on the trinity, but she just gave me these verses-

Col 1:3-8

We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints; 5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth; 7 as you also learned from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf, 8 who also declared to us your love in the Spirit.

There are a ton more scriptures that back up this doctrine.  These are just the main ones given to me.
John O


Brotherdavid

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2009, 08:37:15 AM »
The Apostles did follow Jesus' instructions in Matt. 28:19- That's why the ONLY way they ever baptized was "In Jesus' Name" ..... Never in the titles of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Theses are roles/ or manifestations of our one God = Jesus !!
God can be Father (as in creation), Son (as for our redemption), Holy Ghost (as for our regeneration when we are baptized in the Holy Ghost).
Can you not be a son, a father, an uncle, a grandpa, a husband and still be one person ?
These are roles that can exist all at the same time...... Not five people !!
I do not deny the many roles of our one God, but to say He is multple persons is to say that there are multiple Gods.... This is polytheism / tritheism (the worship of more than one).
The worship of the mainstream trinity is catholic/orthodox in orgin, the only difference is the deletion of Mary worship.

 

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