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Author Topic: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?  (Read 12751 times)

Brotherdavid

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2009, 02:35:56 PM »
•   Babylon was the originator of the Trinity!  It began with Nimrod, Tammuz and Semiramis – the King/Father, the Prince/Son and the Queen/Mother.  As a result, all ancient heathen religions developed their own "triad" or "trinity."  Later, the Babylonian symbol of the "dove" for the Mother Goddess would be changed to represent the Holy Spirit by the framers of the Nicean Creed in AD 325.  But, as current Catholic practice will reveal, Mary is in reality the third person of their trinity!

B A B Y L O N ' S   T R I N I T Y   I N   A N C I E N T   R E L I G I O N S
First Person
Father / King   Second Person
Son / Prince   Third Person
Queen / Mother / Dove
T R I A D   O F   B A B Y L O N
Nimrod   Tammuz   Semiramis
T R I A D   O F   E G Y P T
Osiris   Horus   Isis
T R I A D   O F   G R E E C E
Zeus   Apollo   Athena
T R I A D   O F   I N D I A
Brahama   Vishnu   Shiva
T R I A D   O F   R O M E
Jupiter   Mars   Venus
T R I A D   O F   B A C K S L I D D E N   I S R A E L
Baal   Tammuz   Ashtoreth
T R I A D   O F   C A T H O L I C I S M
Father   Son   Holy Spirit / Dove
(Part of an article by Rev. Raymond Woodard)

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2009, 03:53:07 PM »
Pretty ridiculous....
John O


Offline Zaph

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2009, 09:07:43 AM »
Hmmm.... the idea that the devil has tried to duplicate the relationship here on earth in pagan religions just more evidence that the concept of the trinity is true.

The devil is the master is taking what is true and creating something that looks very similar all in the name of deception. Besides... he was once in Heaven he has first hand knowledge on how Heaven operates.

I believe that this is true of pyramids also. In the book of Revelation we find this about the Holy City.

Rev 21:16  And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

While this description fits a cube it also fits a pyramid. I believe that satan in seeking worship here on earth has tried to duplicate what he's seen in Heaven.

Ok...there is 10 cents that no one was asking for!!! :biggrin1:  Now I'll just wait to see how many people wish to send me to the loony bin for that idea.

Offline me again

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2009, 09:55:34 PM »
Quote from: Zaph;44248
Hmmm.... the idea that the devil has tried to duplicate the relationship here on earth in pagan religions just more evidence that the concept of the trinity is true.

The devil is the master is taking what is true and creating something that looks very similar all in the name of deception. Besides... he was once in Heaven he has first hand knowledge on how Heaven operates.

I believe that this is true of pyramids also. In the book of Revelation we find this about the Holy City.

Rev 21:16  And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

While this description fits a cube it also fits a pyramid. I believe that satan in seeking worship here on earth has tried to duplicate what he's seen in Heaven.

Ok...there is 10 cents that no one was asking for!!! :biggrin1:  Now I'll just wait to see how many people wish to send me to the loony bin for that idea.
How can it fit a cube AND a pyramid?
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Zaph

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2009, 12:00:34 AM »
Quote from: me again;44249
How can it fit a cube AND a pyramid?

Because a pyramid can have the same width, depth, and height just like a cube would.

Actually, in my finite mind a pyramid makes more sense. With God at the top on His throne everyone is able to see Him at the same time. You have the tree of life and the 4 rivers one for each side of the pyramid.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2009, 11:54:28 PM »
You're absolutely right, bro David, the apostolic procedure for baptism was in Jesus name as found in Acts 2:38.  Confirming the prophecy of John the Baptist, in Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk3:16 and Jn.1:33.

Furthermore, as the Scriptures presented in post #26 reveal, Jesus knew full well His Father was the Holy Spirit, according to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.  There is no option to the fact that God is the Holy Spirit according to the Word of God.  As recorded in Jn.14:10, Jesus stated that His Father lived in Him.  Obviously no way possible, unless He was/is the Holy Spirit.

It needs to be understood, the term father, is nothing more than a title for every man who sires children of his own, in the very same way, God, who is the Holy Spirit, sired Jesus by the virgin Mary.  

Therefore, Mt.28:19 is exposed for being altered, because in no way at any time, did a man/or God become two persons when becoming a Father.  In the case of 1 Jn.5:7, it is not found in any of the most reliable original mss, until sometime during the 13th/14th centuries.  That is one reason why so many people are deceived by the teachings of the Trinity.

Blessings,

Quasar
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 03:26:07 PM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2009, 11:40:25 AM »
No to be a yo yo, but -

The bottom line to knowing some of the Scriptures have been altered and even added to, as found in Mt.28:19 and 1 Jn.5:7, are the following facts:

As the Scriptures declare God is the Holy Spirit, in Jn.4:24; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Lev.11:44-45 and 1 Pet.1:15-16,

There is no other option to the fact that the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus Christ, according to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.

Trinitarians have attempted to make the term "Father," the first of their tri part godhead, when it is no more than the very same title, all men receive when they produce children of their own.

That is the very reason Mt.28:19 has been altered, because Jesus knew very well, His Father was/is the Holy Spirit.  1 Jn.5:7 never appeared in any of the early mss until much later in some of the Latin mss!

Blessings,

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline RevJWWhiteJr

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2010, 07:46:43 AM »
Is the trinity a false doctrine?  No.

This thread is almost 6 years old, but I will post this anyway for any onlookers from this point.

Without the "trinity", the sacrifice was not possible.

Jehovah of the Old Testament, is Jesus of the New. To put it in simple terms. "This day have I begotten thee" is pre-creation. Psalms 8 explains the reality of part of that process. God is one, yes. That is explained in the scripture.

1 John 5:7
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, (The Word of John 1:1, Jesus) and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.

John 14:16-18
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:23
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Comforter is the Holy Spirit (or Ghost), is Jesus, is the Father,, God. All three are three are one. Just as he created man in his own image.

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God (Jehovah) formed man of the dust of the ground, (in the physical) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; (with the breath of life, duplicated in man a [the] spirit of himself) and man became a living soul.

Man does not have a soul, he is a soul, coexisting with a spirit given by God from, of and through himself, both encased in a physical shell.

Just as we are three persons existing in this physical world created by God after his own image, (body, spirit and soul) but interacting with God through and in the spiritual, so is God (The Son, The Holy Spirit, and The Father) in the spiritual world interacting with us in the physical.

Bro. Chip
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puwaha

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2010, 09:53:20 AM »
Quote from: Brotherdavid;44209
Just show ONE scripture that speaks of God in three persons, a triune God, or a trinity ..... Show where Jesus confirmed and taught this hoax, or show where in the scriptures where the Apostles taught or preached this, especially the acceptance of the trinity being essential for salvation.


As RevJWWhiteJr said above, I dislike bringing up an old thread, but I feel this is important.  The most compelling evidence for a Triune God is the entire chapter of Genesis 18.  This is where "three men" visit Abraham and he repeatedly refers to them as the singular "Lord."

Now, I have heard rebuttals to this chapter stating that the three men were "agents" of the Lord, or were Angels.  And while that certainly is possible, when Abraham speaks to these men and calls them the singular Lord, they don't correct him.

I can't reconcile the earlier mentioned Proverbs 8 passages referred to earlier in the thread.  But I will say this: the author(s) of Proverbs put into words what was passed down orally for generations.  The context can be lost in translation.  The odd thing in Genesis chapter 18 is that the three men are referred to multiple times and Abraham repeatedly refers to them as a singular.  This to me holds much more credence than Proverbs 8 as being more factually based.  As this story was also orally handed down but the facts of the "three men" and the singular reference as "Lord" was repeated numerous times in the tale.

A lot of people who don't believe in the Trinity ask why isn't there more compelling evidence of a Triune diety referenced in the Bible.  And my simple answer is that the authors of the Bible already understood this nature and took a lot of assumptions that subsequent readers would as well.  Thus we are left with pouring over the Hebrew meanings of a singular El, and the plural Eloheim and why the authors left them that way.  We will never be able to ask the authors directly in this life, unfortunately.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2010, 12:44:12 AM »
Quote from: puwaha;45408
As RevJWWhiteJr said above, I dislike bringing up an old thread, but I feel this is important.  The most compelling evidence for a Triune God is the entire chapter of Genesis 18.  This is where "three men" visit Abraham and he repeatedly refers to them as the singular "Lord."

Now, I have heard rebuttals to this chapter stating that the three men were "agents" of the Lord, or were Angels.  And while that certainly is possible, when Abraham speaks to these men and calls them the singular Lord, they don't correct him.

I can't reconcile the earlier mentioned Proverbs 8 passages referred to earlier in the thread.  But I will say this: the author(s) of Proverbs put into words what was passed down orally for generations.  The context can be lost in translation.  The odd thing in Genesis chapter 18 is that the three men are referred to multiple times and Abraham repeatedly refers to them as a singular.  This to me holds much more credence than Proverbs 8 as being more factually based.  As this story was also orally handed down but the facts of the "three men" and the singular reference as "Lord" was repeated numerous times in the tale.

A lot of people who don't believe in the Trinity ask why isn't there more compelling evidence of a Triune diety referenced in the Bible.  And my simple answer is that the authors of the Bible already understood this nature and took a lot of assumptions that subsequent readers would as well.  Thus we are left with pouring over the Hebrew meanings of a singular El, and the plural Eloheim and why the authors left them that way.  We will never be able to ask the authors directly in this life, unfortunately.




Quasar: First of all, puwaha, no man has ever seen God, as He is Spirit, according to Jn.1:18; 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12.  Therefore the trio you allude to in Gen.18 does not represent the Trinity.  The Lord, referred to was without a doubt, one of the theophanies of the pre-incarnate Jesus and the other two were angels.

See Pr.8:22-36 for the origin of the pre-incarnate spirit of the person who later became, Jesus, the only begotten Son of God.  Which confirms the "us" in Gen.1:26 and in 11:7.  He was the "craftsman" at God's side during the creation, according to Pr.8:30 NIV.

As for the issue of the Trinity, see:

http://theologyreview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5454

http://theologyreview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5455

for the Scriptural reasons why the doctrine of the Trinity is false.

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

puwaha

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2010, 10:25:56 AM »
Quote from: Quasar;45434
Quasar: First of all, puwaha, no man has ever seen God, as He is Spirit, according to Jn.1:18; 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12.

Even Jesus himself acknowledged that no one has seen the "father"... but John 14:8-9 alludes to the fact that they are the same.

Quote
Therefore the trio you allude to in Gen.18 does not represent the Trinity.  The Lord, referred to was without a doubt, one of the theophanies of the pre-incarnate Jesus and the other two were angels.

Well, that's quite the leap you made there.  I'll play along.  If one of them were the pre-incarnate Jesus, then that just codifies the fact Jesus is God.  Because, if you'll remember, in the story Abraham takes them to overlook the wicked city Sodom.  Abraham convinces this "Lord" that the city should be spared if he can find some righteous people in it.  Who but God himself can judge righteousness?[/u]

Also, this story also codifes the fact that if were just the "pre-incarnate Jesus" visiting Abraham, then he in fact is God, by the fact that Abraham recognized him and the title he gives him.

Also, plenty of people have seen God... Moses, Jacob, Abraham.  And John 1:1 specifically refutes Pr. 8.  It states that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  If you counter that these humans are only seeing Jesus, then that further codifies that they understood that "Jesus" is God.  Thus... the trinity confirmed.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2010, 11:26:33 AM »
Hi puwaha,

First of all, you have not read all this thread or the support links which answer most every question pertaining to the fact there is no such thing as a triune God.  Or you should have no questions left to disagree about.

No one has ever seen God, according to the following: Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, as I pointed out previously.  And  the appearance of the pre-incarnate Jesus as the "Lord" in Gen.18, and the other two who went on to Sodom, were angels.

He appeared in what is called a theophany in a number of places in OT times.  Such as in:  Gen.32:28, as "God," Jacob's wrestling partner; Jos.5:13-15, as the Captain/Commander of God's armies from heaven.  Which He still is and will be, in Rev.19:14-20; Dan.3:25, as the fourth man in the firey furnace.

There is no argument as to Jesus being God; however, that did not happen until He became the Son of God as recorded in Lk.1:32.  The confusion comes when Jesus origin is not recognized in Pr.8:22-36, before the creation of the world, the firstborn over all creation.  The Scriptures clearly reveal the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus was created then, confirmied in Col.1:15 as the firstborn over all creation.  

When God, who is the Holy Spirit, according to the Scriptures [Jn.4:24; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Lev.11:44-45 and 1 Pet.1:15-16] became the Father of Jesus when He produced Him by the virgin Mary, in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35.

The term "Father," is nothing more than the very same title all men receive when they produce children of their own.  Which full debunks the altered passage of Mt.28:19, because God is the Holy Spirit, who is the Father!  Two "persons," not three.  The same is true with the additive, 1 Jn.5:7, which did not appear in any of the Greek mss until much later, in the 11th or 12th century Latin mss.

The OT pre-incarnate Jesus was not God until the Holy Spirit fathered Him and gave Him a body, according to Heb.10:5.  Or God would be lying when He testified in Isa.43:10 and in 44:6, that He is the only [true] God.  See Jn.17:3 as well as Jn.14:28.  See also every epistle in the Bible, where the apostles greeted both the Father and Jesus.  If the apostles did not know God was/is the Holy Spirit and the Father of Jesus, they would be guilty of a gross insult and oversight, by not greeting the Holy Spirit as well, if there was any such thing as a triune God.

The pre-incarnate Jesus is the one Moses, Abraham, Jacob as well as Joshua Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar and many Babylonians saw.  Your allegations God has been seen by many, denies the Scriptural facts that He has never been seen by anyone.

There is no such thing as a triune God.  If you are convinced there is, then let me see your scriptural support for it.

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

puwaha

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2010, 07:38:58 PM »
Quote from: Quasar;45468
First of all, you have not read all this thread or the support links which answer most every question pertaining to the fact there is no such thing as a triune God.  Or you should have no questions left to disagree about.


Actually, I have read the whole thread and links.  Thanks for the condecending attitude to start off a discussion.


Quote
No one has ever seen God, according to the following: Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, as I pointed out previously.  And  the appearance of the pre-incarnate Jesus as the "Lord" in Gen.18, and the other two who went on to Sodom, were angels.


This right here completely negates your opinion that the Trinity doesn't exist.  If it's the "pre-incarnate" Jesus as you suggest, and Abraham recognizes him as "Lord"... then Jesus is the Lord our God.  It's not a leap, but a logical progression.


Quote
He appeared in what is called a theophany in a number of places in OT times.  Such as in:  Gen.32:28, as "God," Jacob's wrestling partner; Jos.5:13-15, as the Captain/Commander of God's armies from heaven.  Which He still is and will be, in Rev.19:14-20; Dan.3:25, as the fourth man in the firey furnace.


There are several times where "God" appears in other forms, yes.  Whether it's the pre-incarnate Jesus, or God the Father makes no difference, as they are the same in the Trinitarian view.  And in fact you have Exodus 33:23 where Moses at least gets to see God's back.


Quote
There is no argument as to Jesus being God; however, that did not happen until He became the Son of God as recorded in Lk.1:32.  The confusion comes when Jesus origin is not recognized in Pr.8:22-36, before the creation of the world, the firstborn over all creation.  The Scriptures clearly reveal the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus was created then, confirmied in Col.1:15 as the firstborn over all creation.


I'm not seeing how you can say that Jesus is "God", but only after being born?  (Which is what you are inferring by Luke 1:32.)  Isn't this pre-incarnate Jesus the one telling Isaiah that He is the Alpha and Omega?  And your Proverbs passage is interesting, I will admit.  But only "God" can create.  Jesus being a part of the "Godhead" assisted in the creation of the world as your Proverbs reference suggests.  Just as in Genesis 1:26... God (the Trinity God, remember) says let us make man in our image.  If this was God the Father speaking he would have worded it differently.  He would have said "Let me make man in our image."



Quote
The pre-incarnate Jesus is the one Moses, Abraham, Jacob as well as Joshua Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar and many Babylonians saw.  Your allegations God has been seen by many, denies the Scriptural facts that He has never been seen by anyone.


Absolutely not.  Your logic is pretty flawed here.  As I stated above, if the form or person that the OT people saw was pre-incarnate Jesus and not God, then God himself is a liar.  As stated in Num 12:6-8.  You've got the OT people worshiping a non-deity.


Quote
There is no such thing as a triune God.  If you are convinced there is, then let me see your scriptural support for it.


You have a strage request.  You would like me to give you proof for something that the OT folks took for granted, and that is iterated and repeated throughout the NT, that Jesus is "God"... but you expect me to believe that "pre-incarnate" Jesus who appears as God, allows people to call him God, and doesn't correct them... isn't God?

I'm really not going to throw a bunch of supporting Bible versus for the Trinity at you.  I'm sure you have read a few collections.

If you really insist, we can go through them.  The point/clarification I am trying to get out of you is that you are basing your entire non-Trinity stance on a single poetic[/u] passage in Proverbs?


And you still haven't answered my last question.  Who but God Himself can judge Righteousness as in the Abraham and "three men" story?

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2010, 01:10:13 AM »
Quote from: puwaha;45470
Actually, I have read the whole thread and links.  Thanks for the condecending attitude to start off a discussion.


Quasar:  There was no attempt to denigrate your viewpoint, but you have not paid much attention to the Scriptural facts denying there is any such thing as a triune God.


P: This right here completely negates your opinion that the Trinity doesn't exist.  If it's the "pre-incarnate" Jesus as you suggest, and Abraham recognizes him as "Lord"... then Jesus is the Lord our God.  It's not a leap, but a logical progression.


The pre-incarnate spirit of the person who later became Jesus was created as the Bible states in Pr.8:22-36.  Proverbs is one of the books by Solomon which is about wisdom.  In chapter 8, it is about the attributes of the wisdom of God for mankind.  In verses 22-36, it is about the WHO, THE WISDOM OF GOD IS, as confirmed in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3.  God, who is the Holy Spirit that man has never seen, according to Rom.1:20; Jn.1:18; Co,1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, brought forth the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus before the world began, THE FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION, as recorded in Col.1:15.

God the Holy Spirit is from infinite eternity, while the firstborn over all creation was brought forth before the world was created according to Pr.8:2-25, and was the "CRAFTSMAN AT hIS SIDE in vs 30 [NIV].  Confirming Gen.1:26 and 14:7.  Our one and only God, according to Isa.43:10 and 44:6is not the same "person"/"spirit"/"entity" as the pre-incarnated spirit of the person who became the human Jesus in Lk.2:6, whom the Holy Spirit was the Father of, according to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.  The Father and the Son are two very separate entities, but Jesus, being the only begotten Son of God, is without question, God the Son, according to Ps.45:-7; 110:1 and Isa.7:14, confirmed in Lk.1:32.  When that was fulfilled, it was repeated in Mt.1:23; 22:44 and in Heb.1:5, 8-9.




P: There are several times where "God" appears in other forms, yes.  Whether it's the pre-incarnate Jesus, or God the Father makes no difference, as they are the same in the Trinitarian view.  And in fact you have Exodus 33:23 where Moses at least gets to see God's back.


Yes, there are times when "God" appears, but it is not the invisible God, who is the Holy Spirit.  But rather, one of a number of theophanies of Jesus in the OT,  Such as the third "angel" referred to as the Lord by Abraham and the wrestler with Jacob, both in Genesis.  The Commander of God's armies in heaven, in Jos.5:13-15 and the fourth man in the firey furnace in Dan.3, as well as in other places.  The Father and the Son are not the same "persons."  Every epistle in the Bible greets both the Father and the Son.  Where is the greetings for the Holy Spirit!  The apostles all knew, as Jesus did, the Holy Spirit is the FAther, which is nothing more than the very same title all men have who produce children of their own.


P: I'm not seeing how you can say that Jesus is "God", but only after being born?  (Which is what you are inferring by Luke 1:32.)  Isn't this pre-incarnate Jesus the one telling Isaiah that He is the Alpha and Omega?  And your Proverbs passage is interesting, I will admit.  But only "God" can create.  Jesus being a part of the "Godhead" assisted in the creation of the world as your Proverbs reference suggests.  Just as in Genesis 1:26... God (the Trinity God, remember) says let us make man in our image.  If this was God the Father speaking he would have worded it differently.  He would have said "Let me make man in our image."


There was no other God during OT times, until God produced His only begotten Son, as previously addressed above.  As has Gen.1:26 and 14:7 about "us," from Pr.8:30. the "CRAFTSMAN AT HIS SIDE," during the creation of the world.


P: Absolutely not.  Your logic is pretty flawed here.  As I stated above, if the form or person that the OT people saw was pre-incarnate Jesus and not God, then God himself is a liar.  As stated in Num 12:6-8.  You've got the OT people worshiping a non-deity.


The person who gave Moses the law, was also the pre-incarnated Jesus.  Review Jn.1:3; Col.1:16 and first and foremost, Heb.1:2.


P: You have a strage request.  You would like me to give you proof for something that the OT folks took for granted, and that is iterated and repeated throughout the NT, that Jesus is "God"... but you expect me to believe that "pre-incarnate" Jesus who appears as God, allows people to call him God, and doesn't correct them... isn't God?


There are only two or three passages of Scripture in the NT referring to Jesus as God.  One is in Jn.20:28 and again in Titus 2:13, as well as Jn.3:16 and Lk.1:32.  There are others as the Son of God beside those.Since God gave Jesus all authority in heaven and on earth, and is the only messenger God would allow being seen, they would have died if they had seen God, according to Ex.33:20.


P: I'm really not going to throw a bunch of supporting Bible versus for the Trinity at you.  I'm sure you have read a few collections.

If you really insist, we can go through them.  The point/clarification I am trying to get out of you is that you are basing your entire non-Trinity stance on a single poetic[/u] passage in Proverbs?


And you still haven't answered my last question.  Who but God Himself can judge Righteousness as in the Abraham and "three men" story?



I have already addressed the issue pertaining to Pr.8:22-36, which is not question of being "poetry," but rather specifically about the attributes of God and His will for mankind, in addition to whom the wisdom of God is.  Not just the WHAT.  That is not the only reason for the fact there is no such thing as a triune godhead.  The one trinitarians have made the silliest argument of all!  That of calling one of God's titles, a person, to make their Trinity, when all of us men who have children are still the very same, only one person, not two, as trinitarians attempt to concoct their God to be!


Be well.


Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

puwaha

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2010, 10:35:11 PM »
Quote from: Quasar;45500
Quasar: There was no attempt to denigrate your viewpoint, but you have not paid much attention to the Scriptural facts denying there is any such thing as a triune God.


Facts are nothing but opinions disguised as truth.  ;)


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God the Holy Spirit is from infinite eternity, while the firstborn over all creation was brought forth before the world was created according to Pr.8:2-25, and was the "CRAFTSMAN AT hIS SIDE in vs 30 [NIV]. Confirming Gen.1:26 and 14:7. Our one and only God, according to Isa.43:10 and 44:6is not the same "person"/"spirit"/"entity" as the pre-incarnated spirit of the person who became the human Jesus in Lk.2:6, whom the Holy Spirit was the Father of, according to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35. The Father and the Son are two very separate entities, but Jesus, being the only begotten Son of God, is without question, God the Son, according to Ps.45:-7; 110:1 and Isa.7:14, confirmed in Lk.1:32. When that was fulfilled, it was repeated in Mt.1:23; 22:44 and in Heb.1:5, 8-9.



When given opportunity, why doesn't the "pre-incarnate" Jesus correct people when they call him God, Lord, etc... nor does he correct them after incarnation?

It seems to me, that Jesus would be quick to distemper confusion about who he is.

What you propose is just not logical.



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Yes, there are times when "God" appears, but it is not the invisible God, who is the Holy Spirit. But rather, one of a number of theophanies of Jesus in the OT, Such as the third "angel" referred to as the Lord by Abraham and the wrestler with Jacob, both in Genesis. The Commander of God's armies in heaven, in Jos.5:13-15 and the fourth man in the firey furnace in Dan.3, as well as in other places. The Father and the Son are not the same "persons." Every epistle in the Bible greets both the Father and the Son. Where is the greetings for the Holy Spirit! The apostles all knew, as Jesus did, the Holy Spirit is the FAther, which is nothing more than the very same title all men have who produce children of their own.



I fear your symantics-play here is not doing us any favors.  To say that the pre-existance/creation Jesus is not God, but appears as "God/Lord" in the OT, and solidifies his "Godliness" in the NT... but isn't part of the "trinitarian Godhead" is a logical fallicy.


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There was no other God during OT times,


Bingo!  Because Jesus *is* God.


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 until God produced His only begotten Son, as previously addressed above. As has Gen.1:26 and 14:7 about "us," from Pr.8:30. the "CRAFTSMAN AT HIS SIDE," during the creation of the world.


Yikes, so now there are "two Gods?"


How can Jesus be God post-birth, but not God pre-flesh-and-bone?  You don't lose or gain a title simply by being born.  You just exist in this physical realm.  If you were to belive in a pre-existance of your soul (as Mormons believe) then by your logic, as soon as you are born, we are all Gods. {I know this is off track, but I'm trying to grasp your logic.}



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The person who gave Moses the law, was also the pre-incarnated Jesus. Review Jn.1:3; Col.1:16 and first and foremost, Heb.1:2.


Hence, the people of the OT were worshiping a singular "God"... which Jesus is an extension of.  What's so hard to follow about the trinity?



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There are only two or three passages of Scripture in the NT referring to Jesus as God. One is in Jn.20:28 and again in Titus 2:13, as well as Jn.3:16 and Lk.1:32.


Oh, no.  There are quite a few more.  Isaiah 9:6; Isaiah 42:8; Isaiah 43:10-11; Isaiah 44:24; John 1:1 (please don't give the forgery defense for this one); John 1:3; John 5:17-18; John 10:30-33; John 14:9-11; John 20:28; Philippians 2:5-7; 1 Timothy 3:16...

Contrast Isaiah 42:8 with John 17:5 to start.


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I have already addressed the issue pertaining to Pr.8:22-36, which is not question of being "poetry,"


I respectfully disagree with this position.  Please look up what the English definition of what the word "proverb" actually means... and why the translators chose this word to name this book of the OT.

This is not meant to be patronizing, but you must understand when you base your entire argument from a single passage, you run the risk of having your argument discredited due to what *you* perceive the meaning to be.


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That is not the only reason for the fact there is no such thing as a triune godhead. The one trinitarians have made the silliest argument of all! That of calling one of God's titles, a person, to make their Trinity, when all of us men who have children are still the very same, only one person, not two, as trinitarians attempt to concoct their God to be!


Symantic play again.  As God said... "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways..." (Isaiah 55:8).


And you still haven't answered my last question. Who but God Himself can judge Righteousness as in the Abraham and "three men" story?

 

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