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Author Topic: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?  (Read 12748 times)

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #75 on: September 24, 2010, 09:32:44 AM »
I think you understand it OK, John.

Quasar
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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #76 on: September 24, 2010, 01:43:50 PM »
Quote from: Quasar;45687
I think you understand it OK, John.

Quasar

Quasar
is Jesus God? Not a god or another god, but the one and only God?
Isaiah 48:18,Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #77 on: January 02, 2011, 12:26:40 AM »
Quote from: saved;45695
Quasar
is Jesus God? Not a god or another god, but the one and only God?



Q: What do trinitarians call Jesus?  Do they say He is God, another god but the one and only god.

FYI, He was made the Son of God, by the Holy Spirit, who is His Father according to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:32 and 35.  The Father called Him God /Lord in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and in Isa.7:14.  He is not the one and only God as you falsely believe.

The apostles in every epistle in the Bible greet both the Father and the Son [Jesus].  The participants of the first resurrection will be made priests of who?  Of God and of Christ according to Rev.20:6.  Plus many other proofs, such as the many places referring to God raising Jesus from the dead, as in Rom.10:9.

The epitome of logical foolishness, is the insistence that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit make up the doctrine of the Trinity!  When the term Father is nothing more than God's title, whom the Scriptures clearly reveal to be the Holy Spirit. Father is the title every man receives after he has produced children of his own[Jn.4:24; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Lev.11:44-45; 1 Pet.1:15-16; Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35].  Which at that point alone reduces your triune God to two, rather than three.

With the origin of the pre-incarnate spirit of the person who became Jesus, Brought forth before the creation of the world, the firstborn over all creation, reveals we have but one God and one Son of God, according to the Scriptures. [Pr.8:22-23; Col.1:15; Isa.7:14; Isa.43:10 and Lk.1:32].  

According to the Scriptures, our Godhead consists of Our Father in heaven, who is the invisible God, the Holy Spirit and the Son of God, our Lord and Savior!


Quasar  
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Offline RevJWWhiteJr

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #78 on: March 20, 2011, 10:23:24 AM »
The epitome of logical foolishness, is the insistence that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit make up the doctrine of the Trinity!  When the term Father is nothing more than God's title, whom the Scriptures clearly reveal to be the Holy Spirit. Father is the title every man receives after he has produced children of his own[Jn.4:24; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Lev.11:44-45; 1 Pet.1:15-16; Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35].  Which at that point alone reduces your triune God to two, rather than three.
Quasar  [/I]

Foolishness indeed.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God (elohiym, in the plural) created the heaven and the earth.

26 And God said, Let us (1) make man in our (2) image, after our (3) likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image (1), in the image of God created he him (2); male and female created he them (3). 28 And God blessed them (1 & 2), and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, (3) and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 

And how did he do this?

Genesis 2: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, (In the physical - 1) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; (A spirit - 2 - duplicating in man the essence of himself) and man became a living soul. (3. Emerging from within, a third person, to co-exist with the spirit given by God.)

1. The physical body of man, fasioned by the hand of Jehovah himself, in the image of the physicality of God.
2. Given a spirit, that mirrors the Spirit of God, with which man can communicate with God through the Spirit.
3. The union of which brought forth the essence of man, the soul, that mirrors the Father in the very image of God himself.

Just as man is body, spirit, and soul in reverse image of the God that created him. So is the image of God - Father, Holy Spirit, and Son. All passages of the Scripture that site, make mention of, or teach of God and his "being" or person, must be interpreted in a manner so to agree with "The Image" that we are given with the record of the creation of man himself, in the image of the creator. I deny none of the passages you site, I deny your limited understanding and interpretation of them.

I have no choice but to accept the "image" of God, as it is portrayed in the scripture, such as at the baptism of Jesus himself. The Father speaking from heaven, the Spirit sent from heaven descending like a dove, and lighting upon Jesus wholly wet, standing in the river Jordan. Sorry, I count three. The fact that they are all one can be seen in our own person, as we ourselves are body, spirit, and soul, created in the very mirror image of God.

Matthew 3:16-17
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mark 1:10-11
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:  11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
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Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2011, 11:57:27 AM »
Why is the Doctrine of the Trinity False ?

First of all, please note who the "us" is in Gen.1:26 and in 11:7.  It does not have any relationship to an imagined triune Godhead.

In the second place, a review of Mt.28:19: "...in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."  According to Jn.4:24 and 2 Cor.3:17-18, God is the Spirit.  According to Lev.11:44-45 and 1 Pet.1:15-16, He is Holy.  According to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35, He is the Father of Jesus.

The term father is the very same title all men receive when they produce children of their own, as the Father did of Jesus, and is nothing more than His title and by no mens equates into one of the three personages claimed by trinitatrians.

1. What is God? He is Spirit, according to Jesus, in Jn.4:24 and Paul, in 2 Cor.3:17-18. That no one has ever seen Him and that He is invisible, are found in Jn.1:18; Col.1:15 and in 1 Jn.4:12.

2. God, who is Spirit according to the Scriptures, is also Holy, according to Lev.11:44-45 and 1 Pet.1:15-16. Therefore, God is the Holy Spirit according to the Scriptures!

3. There was only one God throughout the entire OT according to Isa.43:10 and 44:6. That rules out the Son being co-eternal with God, the Holy Spirit. Though the time of his presence is addressed below.  Confirming Isa:7:14.

4. The origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus, who did not become the Son, until in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:32, 35, is found in the following:

Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the Wisdom of God, I refer specifically to the following portion of it in verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus Christ, the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]

when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]

I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]

when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]

rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33]

Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36]

That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3
 
"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24] NIV

when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world." [Vs 24-26]

Confirmed in Col.1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." As well as in Gen.1:26, 11:7; Jn.1:1-2 and 17:5.

5. In vs 30 of the Pr.8 text is the following: NIV
"when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day," [Vs 29-30]
Confirmed in Jn.1:1-3 and Col.1:16-18.

6. The Holy Spirit, who is the One and Only God [Isa.43:10 and 44:6], not only stated He was the Father of Israel , in Dt.32:6, but also prophecied He was going to be the Father of a Son, in: 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Which was fulfilled in Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and 2:7. Therefore, there is no option to the Scriptural fact: God, the Holy Spirit was/is the Father of Jesus Christ. And gave a body to the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus. Confirming Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5.

7. The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus then became the incarnate Son of God in Lk.1:32, and received His name, Jesus, in Lk.1:35. Literally, God the Son, fulfilling the prophecy of the Holy Spirit, in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. Empowered to give/baptise with the Holy Spirit, according to Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33. To perform 36 miracles, of raising some from the dead, healing people with terminal illnesses as well as the blind and the deaf. Which no normal human being could ever do.

8. The term Father, given to God, the Holy Spirit, is nothing more than the very same title all men have who produce children of their own! It does not constitute making him a second person of the very same person, any more than making God, the Holy Spirit and the Father, two separate "persons." Which is the reason why Mt.28:19 is bogus, because it was obviously altered by a clever scribe obsessed with his belief in the doctrine of the Trinity. However, 1 Jn.5:7 was a a late add on, around the 11th or 12th centuries that never appeared on the earlier, more reliable mss.

See the following for the origins of the trinity:

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2009/12/11/the-origin-of-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity-from-pag/ 


Quasar
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Offline RevJWWhiteJr

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #80 on: March 21, 2011, 07:57:47 PM »
Why is the Doctrine of the Trinity False ?

First of all, please note who the "us" is in Gen.1:26 and in 11:7.  It does not have any relationship to an imagined triune Godhead.

The scripture doesn't "say" who the us is in Genesis, it demonstrates who us is by speaking of himself in the plural, three times. God and man, repeatively. (I showed that above.)

In the second place, a review of Mt.28:19: "...in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Each one has a name, title, or whatever one wishes to distinguish them as. But mentions all three, individually.)  According to Jn.4:24 and 2 Cor.3:17-18, God is the Spirit. (Yes, God is Spirit and God is a Spirit, and God is The Spirit, just as God is Jesus and Jesus is God manifested in the flesh.)  According to Lev.11:44-45 and 1 Pet.1:15-16, He is Holy. (Yes, God is Holy.)  According to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35, He is the Father of Jesus. (Yes, God The Father is the father of Jesus.)

The term father is the very same title all men receive when they produce children of their own, as the Father did of Jesus, and is nothing more than His title and by no mens equates into one of the three personages claimed by trinitatrians.

I showed in Genesis where that we (man-[kind]) were established by God through the first creation. Male (1) and Female (2), be fruitful and multiply (3) ).

1. What is God? He is Spirit, according to Jesus, in Jn.4:24 and Paul, in 2 Cor.3:17-18. (Yes, God is Spirit.) That no one has ever seen Him and that He is invisible, are found in Jn.1:18; Col.1:15 and in 1 Jn.4:12. (Yes, no one has seen God at any time. Scripture also says that Jesus said, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father. But nowhere in scripture is it said that anyone has seen God, just the Father, if you have seen Jesus. Then, the Spirit was seen descending from heaven like a dove. But no one has Seen GOD, [in his fullness?])

2. God, who is Spirit (Who is also The Spirit) according to the Scriptures, is also Holy, (Okay, who is also The "Holy" Spirit) according to Lev.11:44-45 and 1 Pet.1:15-16. Therefore, God is the Holy Spirit according to the Scriptures! (Yes, God is The Holy Spirit. Or, more accurately, The Holy Spirit is God.)

3. There was only one God throughout the entire OT according to Isa.43:10 and 44:6. (Yes, there is "still" only one God. One God in the Old Testament, the gospels, Paul's letters, and the Church Age, the tribulation, The Millennium, and forever and ever, throughout all eternity.) That rules out the Son being co-eternal with God, the Holy Spirit. (Excuse me?, that rules out no such thing. There is a "co-eternal-ality" to point out in the scripture you site below.) Though the time of his presence is addressed below. Confirming Isa:7:14.

4. The origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus, who did not become the Son, until in Mt.1:20 What ?? (Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his "son’s" name, if thou canst tell? GOD HAD A SON, before Matt 1:20. Jehovah.)

Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the Wisdom of God, I refer specifically to the following portion of it in verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus Christ, the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].

Okay, as I understand it, you say "Jesus" did not exist before his birth as the son of God, until his incarnatation in the physical. According to you, there was only one, total, "The Spirit".

I believe that Jesus existed as Jehovah before his physical birth, aside "The Spirit", both distinct from, but a part of The Father. So, from your perspective, before creation, how and why is there a plurality of more than one. The Spirit speaking of the "he" who is creating, just as the New Testament records, The Word was with God, and The Word was God, BOTH, and without him nothing was made that was made.


"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, (Who brought whom forth, if there was only one?) before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, (Given birth by whom, if there was only one?) [Vs 22-24]

when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, (Again, given birth by whom, if there was only one?) before "He" made the earth (Who is the speaker, (The Spirit), pointing to?) or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]

I was there when He (Two, before the incarnation.) set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]

when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]

rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. (Only God can make claim to that.) Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33]

Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. (Pointing to another, a third?) But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36]

That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3
 
"The Lord (1) brought me (2) forth as the first of His (3) works, before His deed of old; (This stament demands a plurality, Pre-Creation.) I was appointed (By whom?) from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. (Jesus/Jehovah created the world. Who was with him?) When there were no oceans, I was given birth, ("Given" birth, by whom?) [Vs 22-24] NIV

when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He (Who is the speaker [The Spirit] referring to?) made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world." [Vs 24-26]

Confirmed in Col.1:15: "He is the image (Yes, the IMAGE [physicality] of God. Just as man was made in the image of God in his fullness, body/spirit/soul.) of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." (Over all creation, Pre-creation.) As well as in Gen.1:26, 11:7; Jn.1:1-2 and 17:5.

5. In vs 30 of the Pr.8 text is the following: NIV
"when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. (Who is the "I" at the side of "HE", the creator?) I was filled with delight day after day," [Vs 29-30]
Confirmed in Jn.1:1-3 and Col.1:16-18.

6. The Holy Spirit, who is the One and Only God [Isa.43:10 and 44:6], not only stated He was the Father of Israel , in Dt.32:6, but also prophecied He was going to be the Father of a Son, in: 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Which was fulfilled in Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and 2:7. Therefore, there is no option to the Scriptural fact: (No option?) God, the Holy Spirit was/is the Father of Jesus Christ. And gave a body to the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus. Confirming Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5.

7. The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus then became the incarnate Son of God in Lk.1:32, and received His name, Jesus, in Lk.1:35. Literally, God the Son, fulfilling the prophecy of the Holy Spirit, in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. Empowered to give/baptise with the Holy Spirit, according to Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33. To perform 36 miracles, of raising some from the dead, healing people with terminal illnesses as well as the blind and the deaf. Which no normal human being could ever do.

8. The term Father, given to God, the Holy Spirit, is nothing more than the very same title all men have who produce children of their own! It does not constitute making him a second person of the very same person, any more than making God, the Holy Spirit and the Father, two separate "persons." Which is the reason why Mt.28:19 is bogus, because it was obviously altered by a clever scribe obsessed with his belief in the doctrine of the Trinity. However, 1 Jn.5:7 was a a late add on, around the 11th or 12th centuries that never appeared on the earlier, more reliable mss.

Again, I showed in Genesis where that we [man-kind] were established by God through the first creation, Male (1) and Female (2), be fruitful and multiply (3), in the mirror "image" of God, Father/Holy Spirit/Son - mankind - body/spirit/soul).

Quasar

Have we forgotten about the baptism of Jesus? Did you miss that?
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Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #81 on: March 22, 2011, 11:41:28 PM »
Who/What is God/Father/Son/Holy Spirit and Origin of the Pre-Incarnate Jesus?

It is necessary to first properly identify God, whom both Jesus, Paul and John have done, in Jn.1:18, 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as [the] Spirit.

In the second place, God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44-45 and in 1 Pet.1:15-16, with no option to the Scriptural fact, He is the HOLY SPIRIT.
 
In the third place, the fact that God is the Holy Spirit - He is also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord, Almighty God - as well as other names and titles including "Father," seen for Him more than any of the other titles in the Scriptures.
 
In the fourth place, God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in another place, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." Isa.44:6. See also Ex.3:14, "I AM WHO I AM."

In the fifth place, it can clearly be seen from the above Scriptures - He is indeed the Holy Spirit. With that having been documented Scripturally, what about Jesus? Along with misconceptions of who the Holy Spirit is - the most important of all, is the Scriptural description of Jesus.

The origin of the Pre-Incarnate Spirit of Jesus
 
Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the Wisdom of God, I refer specifically to the following portion of it in verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ, personification of  WHO, of the Wisdom of God is.

[From the NIV] "The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]
 
when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]

I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]
 
when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]
 
rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 31-33]
 
Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36]
 
That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3.
 
From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. The same passage of Scripture also reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one. God, whom the Scriptures reveal is the Holy Spirit, and the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ.

Another example of the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus being created comes from the KJV, in their translation of Pr.8:22, where it reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22, the term POSSESS in both, means CREATOR, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as He did the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ.  [Translated "created" in the NIV and so annotated in the NASB].

To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And in vs 18, it is written that He is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be crystal clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, not of everlasting eternity, but rather, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth as the first of YHWH's works, before the world began.

The Holy Spirit becomes the Father
 
When the Holy Spirit of God overpowered the virgin Mary [In Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35], she conceived what became the incarnate Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God Several things happened then:

1. God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, making the Holy Spirit and the Father one 'personage' [Spirit], Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35. Fulfilling the prophecy of God in 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5.
 
2. The incarnate Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give the Holy Spirit to whomever He chose.

3. Jesus said, whover believes in him is born again, through the Holy Spirit He gives/baptizes those who do, and promises eternal life. Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. See also Jn.20:21-22 and 1 Jn.4:13.

Jesus stated in Jn.17:3 that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. Clearly inferring, IMO, that He considered Himself God as well. Otherwise, Jesus would undoubtedly have said His FATHER IS THE ONY GOD, would He not?

By the same token, the Father prophecied by calling His Son, God/Lord in Ps.45:6-7; 11O:1 and in Isa.7:14. After that was fulfilled, it was repeated in Mt.1:23, 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9. It is also written that Jesus is the image of the living God.

Though the Father is Pure Spirit, Jesus had a human/physical body [Heb.10:5] that received an imperishable, immortal resurrection body, as in 1 Cor.15:52-54, whose pre-incarnate Spirit was created. [The firstborn over all creation in Col.1:15] Though there is no question as to His deity, by the very testimony of God Himself, the proper description of God is:

ONE TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD and literally GOD THE SON [As in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 AND Isa.7:14 and fulfilled in Mt.1:23 AND IN HEB.1:8-9].
 
At this point, we have now seen, the Spirit of God The Holy Spirit], is YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord God, God Almighty, etc., and is now also the Father, which is only a title, as all men are who produce children of their own. We have also seen the Father and the Son are two separate entities who are neither co-eternal nor co-equal. Jesus said the Father is greater than He in Jn.14:28 and greater than all in Jn.10:29.
Jesus said His Father [The Holy Spirit] lived in Him, in Jn.14:10, in which there is no option to the fact that God is Spirit, as Jesus stated in Jn.4:24.

Leading us to the following: As to the matter of Jesus remarks about He and His Father being one, which many people fail to comprehend and understand - meaning, they are one spiritually - and have nothing whatever to do with them being one and each the same person. He said He and the Father are one in Jn.10:30 and Jn.17:21, ads all of us who belong to Jesus are.

What Jesus meant in 17:21-22, that all we believers become one with He and the Father, as He and the Father are. When thinking about that carefully, it can be understood that we all become a part of the one body of Christ [And the Father], through belief in Him, receiving His baptism with the Holy Spirit [Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16 and Jn.1:33], becoming a born again believer [Spiritually]through the one Spirit of God. 1 Cor.12:12-13. But it must be understood that we all retain our own physical, individual identities, personage, in the very same way the Father and the Son do. Two Personages - not one!

The apostles in every epistle in the Bible offer greetings to BOTH THE FATHER AND TO JESUS. If they were only one person, it is quite obvious those greetings would all have been different. By the same token, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in any of those greetings, because the apostles all knew the Father was/is the [Holy] Spirit.

Keep in mind, the Spirit of God was living within Jesus, when He testified about it in Jn.14:10-11 as well as when He said, "...When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be AND THAT I DO NOTHING ON MY OWN BUT SPEAK JUST WHAT THE FATHER HAS TAUGHT ME." Jn.8:28. An exact case and point can be found in Lk.22:3, where Satan enters into Judas, who is then controlled by [the spirit who is Satan], in the same way the Spirit of God controlled what Jesus said and did. But both He and Judas retained their own spirits and individuality.


 Quasar



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Offline RevJWWhiteJr

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #82 on: March 23, 2011, 07:06:15 AM »
Yes, well, be that as it may, thank you for a lengthy (and largely) repeat of the information, (without direct comment or even rebuttal of my own) but I think I explained within your explanations the misunderstandings that non-Trinitarians have and can not see. Setting aside your problem with the 1John passage, I saw God as triune before anyone taught me the "concept". The scripture speaks of all three individually. Jesus speaks of all three individually. Therefore, THE WORD speaks of all three individually.

God - 1. Father 2. Holy Spirit 3. Son
(MIRROR)
Man - 3. body 2. spirit 1. soul

At Jesus' baptism, all three are represented, as well as present. All the passages you "site" can be easily shown to be misrepresented, as your explanations do not agree with the whole of scripture.

At the stoning of Stephen,

Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, (The omnipresent Spirit emanating from The Father) and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Stephen, full of the Holy Ghost, (The Holy Spirit) “saw” Jesus “standing” (the event had gotten Jesus’ attention, as his usual poster in heaven is seated at the right hand of God) on the right hand of God (The Father.)

The Father on the throne, Jesus “at” his right hand, (seated or standing) and The Holy Ghost (The Spirit of God) indwelling believers. And all three are one, because there is only one God, just as there is only one of each of us, body/spirit/soul.

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, (1. the body) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; (2. the spirit) and man became a living soul. (3. the soul)

We can not fully comprehend this concept in its entirety, but we can understand it if we will accept The Word as written.

And one doesn't have to believe in the trinity to be saved, or to be included in the Rapture. But is does make the rest of God's plan clearer to his creation.

It sure makes the walk we take through this life that much more peaceful, knowing whom it is that accompanies us through the journey.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 06:19:22 AM by RevJWWhiteJr »
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Offline Quasar

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Re: Is the doctrine of the Trinity false?
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2013, 12:46:47 AM »
1. Yes, well, be that as it may, thank you for a lengthy (and largely) repeat of the information, (without direct comment or even rebuttal of my own) but I think I explained within your explanations the misunderstandings that non-Trinitarians have and can not see. Setting aside your problem with the 1John passage, I saw God as triune before anyone taught me the "concept". The scripture speaks of all three individually. Jesus speaks of all three individually. Therefore, THE WORD speaks of all three individually.

2. God - 1. Father 2. Holy Spirit 3. Son
(MIRROR)
Man - 3. body 2. spirit 1. soul

3. At Jesus' baptism, all three are represented, as well as present. All the passages you "site" can be easily shown to be misrepresented, as your explanations do not agree with the whole of scripture.

4. At the stoning of Stephen,

Acts 7:55-56
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, (The omnipresent Spirit emanating from The Father) and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Stephen, full of the Holy Ghost, (The Holy Spirit) “saw” Jesus “standing” (the event had gotten Jesus’ attention, as his usual poster in heaven is seated at the right hand of God) on the right hand of God (The Father.)

The Father on the throne, Jesus “at” his right hand, (seated or standing) and The Holy Ghost (The Spirit of God) indwelling believers. And all three are one, because there is only one God, just as there is only one of each of us, body/spirit/soul.

5. Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, (1. the body) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; (2. the spirit) and man became a living soul. (3. the soul)

6. We can not fully comprehend this concept in its entirety, but we can understand it if we will accept The Word as written.

7. And one doesn't have to believe in the trinity to be saved, or to be included in the Rapture. But is does make the rest of God's plan clearer to his creation.

8. It sure makes the walk we take through this life that much more peaceful, knowing whom it is that accompanies us through the journey.



1. There is no misunderstanding I have of the trinitarian view - having been one for 45 years!  Understand this, neither Jesus, his Disciples or the Bible teach the Trinity.  It was politically motivated, not from the Bible.

2.  The Scriptures describe God to be the Holy Spirit AND Father of Jesus as I will verify for you below.  Trinitarians attempt to make God, who is the Holy Spirit and His title of Father, two separate persons!  When the term father is the title all men receive when they produce children of their own.

3.  Mt.28:19 is a passage of Scripture in which unscrupulous scribes altered the original meaning.  It makes the same mistake all trinitarians make in trying to make God, who is the Holy Spirit, according to the Scriptures, who is also the Father of Jesus, two separate persons when He is one and the same person.  Prove it to be false, or the Trinity is!  See Scriptural proof below.

1 Jn.5:7 does not appear in any of the more reliable early Greek mss.  But did show up much later in some of the Latin mss.  The Scriptural Description of God, posted below, refutes both of them.

4. Acts 7:55-56 does not reveal any Trinity whatever!  It reveals the indwelling Holy Spirit in Steven together with God who is the Holy Spirit AND Father of Jesus, whom he also saw.  Two persons, not three!

There is no such thing as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that make up one God!  Provide the Scriptures proving your point!  One more time, God, is the Holy Spirit AND  Father of Jesus according to the Scriptures.  Jesus is a completely separate entity to the Father!  Trinitarians attempting to make them one are talking out of both sides of their mouth; that the Father and the Son are one and then insist they are not!  You cannot have it both ways.

5. Gen.2:7 is completely irrelevant and has nothing whatever to do with the doctrine of the Trinity.  Gen.1:26 and 11:7 clearly confirm Pr.8:22-25 [36]; Jn.1:1-2 and 17:5 as to the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus being present with the God before the world began; the firstborn over all creation!

6. No one can comprehend the Trinity because there is no such thing!

7. Of course it has nothing to do with our salvation, in spite of the RCC attempting to deceive people by telling them it did for centuries!  Nor does it have anything at all to do with the rapture of the Church.

8. I vigorously disagree with you that belief in and teaching a false doctrine, Jesus, His disciples nor the Bible teach is any peace and comfort to me!  The Scriptural Description of God and origin of Jesus, as documented below, does, however!

The following reasons are why the Trinity is false and cannot be proven by the Scriptures!

1. God is Spirit: Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12.2.

God is Holy: Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Isa.43:3; Jos.24:19; 1 Sam.2:2; Job 6:10; Ps.99:3 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.3.

According to the above, there is no option to the Scriptural fact, God is the Holy Spirit and Father of Jesus, according to Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.4 and all of the above Scriptures!

The origin of the pre-incarnate spirit of the person who later became Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, was brought forth by the Father [Who is the Holy Spirit according to the Scriptures] in Pr.8:22-36, before the world began, the firstborn over all creation, according to Col.1:15. Fulfilling Ps.2:7 and Acts 13:33.

Therefore, as the above Scriptures prove, there is no option to the fact the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus!5. As recorded in 3. above, the Scriptures describe God to be the Holy Spirit AND Father, ONE person, NOT TWO!

As documented in 4. above, the Father and the Son are TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES, NOT ONE! Confirmed in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35.

Why is the trinitarian view false? From the beginning, the formula for their views come from belief the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit formulate a monogamous Godhead. However, the Scriptures fully refute any such theory and describe God to be the Holy Spirit and Father of Jesus!

The term Father, is nothing more than His title. The very same one all men receive when they produce children of their own. It never constitutes making two persons out of the individual who is called father, as is the case with our one and only God the Holy Spirit, who produced His one and only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ by the virgin Mary.

Shocking trinitarian admissions: 

http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/trinity_truth.html

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/god-trinity/trinity-biblical/


Quasar

« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 12:58:01 AM by Quasar »
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