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Author Topic: I have decided to follow Jesus  (Read 5386 times)

Stan

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I have decided to follow Jesus
« on: April 28, 2009, 11:29:54 PM »
I viewed  a Church bulletin of a Calvinist Church.

Their song was

I have decided to follow Jesus

Now I do not know a lot of things about Calvinism, I am not one, nor am I a Armenian, or what ever the other group is called.

It just struck me funny, that they would sing  "I HAVE DECIDED"

Does anyone else see the humour in this, or I am misreading Calvinism?

No flaming please..

Offline John Oscar

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Re: I have decided to follow Jesus
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2009, 12:49:24 AM »
Under Calvinist Doctrine, a person would be saved no matter what they do or what they decide.

A person would actually would sing "I have decided" would be a church going Calvinist that actively serves Jesus.

The funny (actually tragic) part about that is under Calvinism a person could love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, serve Him all their lives faithfully, and still go to hell for not being the elect....
John O


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Re: I have decided to follow Jesus
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2009, 07:28:20 AM »
Under the Calvinist doctrine, the elect are irresistibly drawn to Him i.e. (1) My sheep hear My voice and (2) the Father draws them to Me. The elect CAN hear his voice, while the damned cannot i.e. the damned have ears to hear, but they CANNOT hear, lest He should heal [save] them.

:first:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Stan

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Re: I have decided to follow Jesus
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2009, 08:31:08 AM »
What about the John 3:16  whosoever?

Offline John Oscar

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Re: I have decided to follow Jesus
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2009, 09:08:34 AM »
That verse is the death knell of all Calvinism.  No one has adequetely explained that verse in the light of Calvinism without saying Jesus meant only the elect.
John O


Offline Tom

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Re: I have decided to follow Jesus
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2009, 09:56:43 AM »
John, John, John,

That is a scandalous misrepresentation of Calvinist teaching. Calvinism fully recognizes that a person must make a decision to accept Christ. The only difference is that they know it is impossible for the non-elect to do so.

Stan,

Whosoever, means just what it says. Whosoever puts their faith in Christ will be saved. The point of contention between Calvinist and Arminians over John 3:16 is the meaning of "God so loved the world." Calvinist believe that this is in reference to the inclusion of Gentiles into the Kingdom of God at the advent of Christ. Prior to Christ the Scripture states that Gentiles were without God and without hope. Arminains on the other hand believe that the term "world" means that God loves everyone equally. There are some problems with this interpretation. John writes in 1 John 2:15 "Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the father is not in him." Obviously there are some issues with assigning the definition that seems to fit your personal theology to a word like world. The more likely definition of what John 3:16 means is explained in Romans 11:
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”

Gentiles Grafted In
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion [2] mean!
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

Offline Zaph

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Re: I have decided to follow Jesus
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2009, 11:46:52 AM »
We talked earlier about how proof-texting doesn't really prove anything and I agree. But I've always found these texts along with John 3:16 interesting when thinking about the teachings of calvinists.

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Eze 3:18  When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:19  Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Eze 3:20  Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:21  Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Eze 18:23  Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:24  But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

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Re: I have decided to follow Jesus
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2009, 07:33:07 PM »
Zaph, the NT scripture that you quoted is directed at the elect and not to Judas Iscariot and the rest of the non-elect people in the world. It's directed exclusively to the sheep and not to the goats. The damned are "doomed to destruction," just as Judas Iscariot was.

Quote from: Stan;43944
What about the John 3:16  whosoever?
Quote from: John Oscar;43946
That verse is the death knell of all Calvinism.  No one has adequetely explained that verse in the light of Calvinism without saying Jesus meant only the elect.
It has to be put in context from the Lord's point of view. It's true that the bible says that "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord [Jesus] will be saved." But in the end, only the elect will call upon Him with a sincere heart -- and only they will be saved. Many will say to Him, "Did we not cast out devils in your name..." Only the Lord knows who is sincere when they call out to Him. And it is impossible for the non-elect to be sincere unto salvation.

Jesus looked toward heaven and prayed:
Quote from: John 17:1-8
Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. :madgrin: Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me :madgrin: and they have obeyed your word. Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, :madgrin: for they are yours.  
We are the elect not because of anything that we can do, but because we belong to the Father and He has given us to Jesus; that's the only reason we are able to hear His voice to genuinely respond to it.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: I have decided to follow Jesus
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2009, 06:18:07 AM »
Ahh...yes, since Calvinist's know the "secret" mind of God, we'll just trust their interpretation here instead of just reading the bible for what it says....

Does your back hurt after all those hermeneutical back-flips?  :juggle:

(I say the above with a smile...I'm not being a total arrogant butthead...only about 1/2 :D  )

Isn't this what the early church fought for years- gnostic's claiming they knew the secrets of God and adding to the scriptures?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 08:28:28 AM by John Oscar »
John O


Aner

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Re: I have decided to follow Jesus
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2009, 05:32:19 PM »
As for me, I will stick to the Word of God

ICor8:6 - to us, there is one God - the Father (period)
and, one Lord, Jesus Christ,
and,......

Nope - no other character....

Yup, that is the WOG (also see Jn17:3, ICor15:21, ITim2:5, Heb 2, etc.)

Best,
In Christ,
Aner

eegles2003

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Re: I have decided to follow Jesus
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2009, 04:49:38 PM »
i think that we should also remember that the bible is for the believer.  therefore everything that is written is for the church... the elect.  i am not a calvinist but i do go to a calvinist church, and i think that they are misunderstood.  i think where the confusion lies is in salvation.  that we save ourselves.  not the case, it is God who saves us because we were dead in our transgressions.  john 6:44 says that God draws us.  now i dont have a problem with that but i believe(right now)  in 1timothy 2:3-4 God desires all men to be saved.  so its hard for me to believe that God chooses certain people to be saved.  another example is romans 8:29-30.  any other questions and i have the confession of faith of the london baptist, and my pastor.  so let us understand each other better and not harden our hearts because we dont understand.

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Re: I have decided to follow Jesus
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2009, 08:17:06 AM »
Some day when we get to heaven, we may be judged on the way we treated other believers, regardless of their different denominational beliefs. Were we kind and patient with them? Did we treat them with love and dignity, even if we believed that they were in error when, in fact, our own personal belief may have been in error?
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

eegles2003

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Re: I have decided to follow Jesus
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2009, 09:32:23 AM »
i never got back to you soon enough, i apologize...  that was a nice and well put thing to say.  its always nice to know that even though we have our differences in understanding we remember that our love for one another is still there and must be seen.

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Re: I have decided to follow Jesus
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2009, 11:23:06 AM »
Quote from: eegles2003;44281
i never got back to you soon enough, i apologize...  that was a nice and well put thing to say.  its always nice to know that even though we have our differences in understanding we remember that our love for one another is still there and must be seen.
No one denomination (nor any individual) has a lock on 100% of the doctrinal truths i.e. sprinkled or immersed (but wet!!!!), transubstantiation or not, soulsleep v. the afterlife, et al ad nausium.

Regardless...

There are two commandments:
1. Love the Lord our God with all our hearts, souls and minds and
2. Love our neighbors as ourselves.

Upon these two commandments hangs all the laws of the prophets. If I am unknowingly in doctrinal error... or if my brother is unknowingly in doctrinal error... did I nonetheless treat him with kindness? All believers will be judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ -- and I believe that we'll be judged in this particular area -- and it will be a determining factor in our rewards in heaven.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

eegles2003

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Re: I have decided to follow Jesus
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2009, 09:30:24 AM »
Jesus said that those 2 commandments were the most important.  we have so much to li ve by and to live up to.   i am reminded all the time how weak i am and how much i need the blood of Jesus.  its a sacrifice isnt it?  for us as well to die to the flesh daily.  but what a joy in our hearts.  a joy that couldnt be replaced by anything!

 

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