* *
265 Guests, 1 User

Author Topic: Eternal Security  (Read 3509 times)

Offline Danny

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
Eternal Security
« on: September 20, 2010, 12:46:29 PM »
Can someone give me some of the verses that would lead someone to believe that you could lose (walk away from) your salvation?  

Thank you.

Offline Quasar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
Re: Eternal Security
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2010, 10:12:42 AM »
Hi Danny,

There are some, such as Heb.6:4-6 and 10:26.  But there are specifics involved as to what the author was addressing, pertaining to the early Jewish converts.  Who believed Jesus would return at an early time.  When He did not, they started abandoning "the Way" in large numbers.

The point of which was, according to Heb.10:4, though they heard the gospel and believed, they did not combine it with sufficient faith to have ever been saved in the beginning.

A good case and point of the various ways this can take place is in Jesus parable about the sower, in Mt.13:3-9.

Another favorite of those who think we can lose there salvation, is in 1 Jn.4:4-10.  Unfortunately, such people do not believe Jesus promises in Jn.3:16 and in Jn.10:27-29.

Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline John Oscar

  • Bondservant of the Lord
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4765
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
    • Whitehall Assembly
Re: Eternal Security
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2010, 12:11:00 PM »
I believe that a person can "loose their salvation".  Every NT writer refers to a person having the ability to walk away from the faith, and further speaks to the absolute necessity of keeping ourselves focused and loyal to Christ.

However, I can also accept the argument that those people were never truly saved to begin with.  I admit I base this somewhat philosophically on the premise the Lamb's Book of Life (the list of the saved people) is already written (based from God's foreknowledge of who would repent and accept and stay in Christ's saving grace).  
If we could "loose our salvation", this book would have multiple scratch off's, and then if a person were to repent, the scratch off would be annotated, then potentially scratched off again, ect.....

Therefore, I would say that if we are in the Lamb’s Book of Life, we are saved eternally.  However, who is in there remains to be seen J
John O


Offline me again

  • Bought with a price...
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3680
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
    • http://theologyreview.com/
Re: Eternal Security
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2010, 06:37:05 PM »
From the foundation of the world, God knew the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. He knew that the Lamb would rise from the dead. Similarly, from the foundation of the world He knows who is saved and who is damned. He knew from the beginning that Judas Iscariot was damned (Jesus said so).

Sooooo...

For those who are damned, are they damned exclusively because of their own free will? Yes.

For those who are saved, are they saved exclusively because of their own free will? No! They are saved because their free will is mixed with grace! :eek:

This theological debate has been going on for 2000 years and there are 3.4 billion pages printed on this subject. Do you think it will finally be settled within this thread? :snicker:
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Danny

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
Re: Eternal Security
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2010, 08:05:14 AM »
Quote from:  Do you think it will finally be settled within this thread? :snicker:[/QUOTE


Is that too much to ask?

Offline me again

  • Bought with a price...
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3680
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
    • http://theologyreview.com/
Re: Eternal Security
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2010, 11:02:30 PM »
Quote from: Danny;45744
Is that too much to ask?
I don't believe that a sheep can lose his salvation. However, there are others on this forum who believe that a sheep can lose his salvation, so maybe they can pipe up with some scriptures to support their false belief?

The bible says that at the end of the age, the sheep will be separated from the goats. A sheep cannot undergo a metamorphosis to turn into a goat -- and visa versa.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Danny

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
Re: Eternal Security
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2010, 05:05:01 PM »
Quote from: me again;45753
I don't believe that a sheep can lose his salvation. However, there are others on this forum who believe that a sheep can lose his salvation, so maybe they can pipe up with some scriptures to support their false belief?

The bible says that at the end of the age, the sheep will be separated from the goats. A sheep cannot undergo a metamorphosis to turn into a goat -- and visa versa.


How do you deal with Hebrews 6:4-6?

Offline John Oscar

  • Bondservant of the Lord
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4765
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
    • Whitehall Assembly
Re: Eternal Security
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2010, 10:25:22 AM »
Quote from: me again;45753
I don't believe that a sheep can lose his salvation. However, there are others on this forum who believe that a sheep can lose his salvation, so maybe they can pipe up with some scriptures to support their false belief?
 
The bible says that at the end of the age, the sheep will be separated from the goats. A sheep cannot undergo a metamorphosis to turn into a goat -- and visa versa.

So there is no change when we come from death unto life when we repent of our sins and make Jesus Lord and Savior of our lives?
John O


Offline me again

  • Bought with a price...
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3680
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
    • http://theologyreview.com/
Re: Eternal Security
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2010, 07:34:15 AM »
Quote from: Danny;45780
How do you deal with Hebrews 6:4-6?
I just read it here:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%206:4-6&version=KJV;NIV;AMP

That's a good point. I'm not sure what to think and I'll have to chew on it. It could take the rest of my life to figure it out!

Quote from: John Oscar;45795
So there is no change when we come from death unto life when we repent of our sins and make Jesus Lord and Savior of our lives?
Your point is well taken. I'm frankly not sure. Not sure...
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Tom

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
Re: Eternal Security
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2011, 01:34:43 PM »
From the ESV Study Bible Footnotes.

This passage has been subject to substantially different interpretations. The central debate concerns whether the descriptions of vv. 4–5 (e.g., “enlightened,” “tasted the heavenly gift,” “shared in the Holy Spirit,” “tasted of the goodness of the word of God”) depict people who were once true Christians. (1) Some argue these phrases do describe true Christians, implying that Christians can “fall away” and lose their salvation (cf. note on 3:14, however, indicating a fundamental difficulty with this view). Nonetheless, most who advocate this view hold that some who backslide can still return to Christian faith, thus limiting 6:4–6 to hardened cases of apostasy in which it is “impossible … to restore them again to repentance” (vv. 4, 6). (2) Most argue, however, that although these people may have participated fully in the Christian covenantal community (where they experienced enlightened instruction in the Word of God, where they saw public repentance occur, and where the Holy Spirit was at work in powerful ways), when such people do “fall away” it is clear that they are not true Christians because they have not made a true, saving response to the gospel, resulting in genuine faith, love, and perseverance (vv. 9–12). Significantly, they are like land that received much rain but bore no good fruit, only “thorns and thistles” (v. 8). They may have participated outwardly in the Christian community and they even may have shared in the blessings of Christian fellowship; but, like the seed that fell on rocky ground in the parable of the sower, “they have no root” (Mark 4:17) and they “fall away” when faced with persecution. (3) Another view is that the warnings are addressed to true believers, and though they will never completely fall away, the warnings are still the means that God uses to challenge them to persevere in their faith and so to preserve those whom the Lord has chosen. (4) A fourth view is that the “falling away” described in Heb. 6:6 has to do with loss of heavenly rewards. In any case, though the author recognizes that there may be a few in the congregation who fit the description of vv. 4–8, in general he does not think it to be true as a whole of the congregation to which he is writing, for he says, “yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation” (v. 9).

Heb. 6:4 For explains “if God permits” (v. 3); in some cases it is fruitless to expound the deeper truths of the faith (or even lay again a foundation of elementary doctrines, v. 1), since it is impossible to restore some people again to repentance (cf. 12:15–17). This likely refers to persons who in the past may have participated in acts of public repentance, which were common in early Christian worship. Here, however, they have apparently “fallen away” in such a decisive and irrevocable manner that “they are crucifying once again the Son of God … and holding him up to contempt” (6:6). Having committed such deliberate apostasy, it is impossible (at least from a human perspective) “to restore” such a person “again to repentance.” While Christians understand these verses differently, it is wise pastoral advice to encourage a person who worries that he may have committed such a deep sin, that the very desire to repent and to be restored in fellowship with the Christian community is evidence that he has not “fallen away” in the permanent, irrevocable way described in this verse (cf. note on “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” at Matt. 12:31–32). enlightened. Being listed first, this likely describes the initial entrance into Christian community through explanation of the Christian faith (cf. Heb. 10:32). Some have suggested that this may also have included baptism. Tasted the heavenly gift probably refers either (or both) to the Lord's Supper or the general blessing that one encounters in the fellowship of the Christian community. have shared in (lit., “have become a partaker of”) the Holy Spirit. Some understand this as a reference to a person who has experienced the laying on of hands in the Christian community; others link it to the communal experience of the Spirit active in their midst producing fellowship and powerful wonders.

Heb. 6:5 tasted the goodness of the word of God. These people (see note on v. 4) have heard the truth explained and thus have also learned of God's creative word (1:3; 11:3). This word will be fully exhibited in powers that bring about the world's renewal in the age to come (2:5; 13:14), yet, through the present ministry of the Spirit, these powers are partially experienced now in the Christian community (cf. 2:4).

Heb. 6:6 Fallen away involves a sustained, committed rejection of Christ and a departure from the Christian community. To restore them again to repentance means to bring them once again to repent of their sins. This wording alone does not specify whether the earlier repentance was merely outward (cf. Luke 17:4), or whether it was a genuine, heartfelt repentance that accompanied true saving faith (see note on Heb. 6:4–8). The author is speaking in terms of what can be known from observing a person's behavior. Crucifying once again graphically portrays rejection of Jesus. Holding … up to contempt (Gk. paradeigmatizō) conveys the idea of a public, shameful display. The warning of vv. 4–8 is substantial: such a falling away treats God's own Son with such serious rejection that it is as if the person wanted again to put Christ on a cross; after such a departure there can be no return (though see note on v. 4).
John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me."
Sometimes the Gospel is not presented clearly enough for the non-elect to reject it.

 

ads

Recent

Shoutbox

Last 5 Shouts:

 

me again

October 09, 2014, 02:15:06 PM
Quote
Religious Lie: "God only paid for sins until the next time you sin."
Forgiveness is available until we get to eternity and then our eternal fate is sealed. Right now, people are free to sin and repent; but there is no forgiveness of sin for the damned in hell.
 

Stan

October 05, 2014, 10:24:53 AM
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
 

Stan

May 03, 2014, 01:12:35 PM
Lots of visitors..  easy to join,  easy to post...  come make some friends..  Play nice with others.
 

The Crusader

February 26, 2014, 04:30:18 PM
Religious Lie: "God only paid for sins until the next time you sin."
 

The Crusader

December 23, 2013, 09:38:53 AM
JUST A THINK ABOUT IT: Will you embrace the full meaning of Christmas? Jesus didn't die just so you could go to heaven. He came to give you life - His life; an abundant life free from guilt, condemnation, and slavery to both sins and religion. He came to bring a grace revolution to the world and tha

Show 50 latest

Our Amazon Store

Unique visitors since Dec 1, 2012

Flag Counter