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Author Topic: The Origins of Dispensational Futurism -- (blockbuster--exclusive information!)  (Read 18112 times)

Offline Quasar

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Link provided by Lysimachus:

The True Nature of the Millennium

by Marcos Schroeckenthaler

There are millions of sincere Bible believing Christians who believe there will be humans inhabiting the earth during the 1000 year millennium described in Revelation 20. But is this really what the Bible teaches? Please take careful examination to the following described events in sequence, and may the truth be revealed about the nature and condition of God’s people and the earth during the 1000 years. The purpose of the following chronological outline is to prove that the millennium is between two resurrections—the resurrection of the righteous, and the resurrection of the wicked, and that there is no mathematical possibility for humans to be inhabiting the earth during this time frame. Additionally, this outline will demonstrate that ALL the saints will be in heaven during the 1000 years, and Satan and his fallen angels will be left bound to this desolated abyss, known as the earth, with no humans to deceive.


Second Coming >
When Christ comes the Second time, there will be 2 groups of people divided into 4 categories:

Category 1: The Righteous Living - (“caught up in the clouds” to be taken to the “prepared mansions”)

Category 2: The Righteous Dead - (“resurrected”, “caught up in the clouds” to be taken to the “prepared
mansions”)

Category 3: The Wicked Living - (“destroyed and slain by brightness at Second Coming”)

Category 4: The Wicked Dead - (“remain dead for 1000 years”)



For the full doctrine go to:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/8/10/162516/Bible%20Prophecy/TheTrueNatureOfTheMillennium%5BExpanded%5D.pdf

 


Quasar: The Scriptural errors to the above are enumerated as follows:

1. and 2. Quote:
Category 1: The Righteous Living - (“caught up in the clouds” to be taken to the “prepared mansions”)

Category 2: The Righteous Dead - (“resurrected”, “caught up in the clouds” to be taken to the “prepared
mansions”)

Category 1 & 2: [Second Coming - caught up in the clouds]
- “Righteous dead and alive caught up to meet Lord in air” (1 Thess 14:16,17)--these righteous go to the
mansions prepared for them in heaven (John 14:2-4) [Category 1 and 2 leave the earth to heaven]
- This is the “first resurrection” (Rev 20:5,6) and same as the “resurrection of life” (John 5:29), “of the just”
(Acts 24:15), and those who “awake” to “everlasting life” (Daniel 12:2)



Quasar: 1. 1 Thes.4:`16-17 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ. THE PASSAGE IS ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH, BEFORE THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION BEGINS. NOT AT THE END OF IT SEVEN YEARS LATER! They go to the mansions Jesus prepared for us in Jn.14:2-3 and 28, as confirmed by Paul in 1 Thes.4:15: "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you..." and completes verses 15-18 pertaining to the pre-trib rapture of the Church. The Church remain in heaven until the marriage to the Lamb takes place, in Rev.19:7-8. Then return with Jesus in His second coming to the earth, in His armies from heaven, in Rev.19:14.

1 Thes.4:16 is not a resurrection!

The statement by Paul in 1 Thes.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first,"does not mean the dead in Christ will be resurrected on the spot, as if a resurrection is about to occur. If Paul meant it that way, he would have documented it as a resurrection, which he did not!  Meaning that there would be three resurrections rather than the two that are recorded in Rev.20:4-6. Which would then have to be changed from the first and second, to the second and third resurrections. Or distorting the intended interpretation of it, by attempting to place it with the first resurrection, as you are doing!

But rather than meaning it to be a resurrection, it was the third of Paul's assurances to the Thessalonians, that all the members of their church, who had already died in Christ, would not miss the pre-trib rapture of the Church he was teaching them about.

The first of Paul's three assurances begins in vs 13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep [die], or to grieve like the rest of men [non-believers], who have no hope." [Parenthetics mine].

Then he followed up his first assurance to them that all those who had previously died in Christ would be together with them at the rapture of the Church in the very next verse [14]: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." Revealing to them, that Christ had raised all those who had died in Him, had also already been previously raised once before and been with Him in heaven ever since, as recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8.

There will not be any resurrected then, because all their dead in Christ had already been raised once before, in their spiritual bodies [As recorded in 1 Cor.15:44], following their physical death, when they went to be with Christ in heaven, immediately. Confirming Ecc.12:7 as well as 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirmed in vs 14 saying they are returning with Christ, when He returns, from heaven, according to vs 15. Therefore, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky for all those who belong to Him left here on earth alive, they will be caught up to meet the Lord, together with those who previously died in Him, who are already there!

The second of Paul's three assurances to the Thessalonicans that their dead in Christ will not miss the rapture of the Church is in vs 15, which states: "According to the Lord's own word [Recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are left [Believers] till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep [Died]." Of course not! Because they will have already been raised once before, and gone to be with the Lord in heaven in their spiritual bodies, and then return with Him when He comes from heaven! They certainly do not need a resurrection, because they are going to the spiritual world in heaven. In contrast to the bodies that will be necessary at the time of the resurrections, of those who are documented in Rev.20:4 and 6. Because they are to be priests of God and rule with Jesus for 1,000 years right here on the earth, in a human environment! [Parenthetics mine].

The third and final assurance Paul wrote in vs 16, the subject of this thread, has already been addressed above.

There is also the false view by those, who attempt to make 1 Thes.4:16-17 a reference to the first resurrection in Rev.20:4 and 6, at the second coming of Christ, seven years after the timing Paul prophecied for it to take place. Which is not possible, because after we [All believers] have been caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, He is going to take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

Nowhere in the Bible is there a single passage of anyone called up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, in His second coming to the earth. Because the first of many things for Him to do, is in fighting the antichrist, the false prophet and their ten nation armies allied to them, in the battle of Armageddon and defeating them, recorded in Rev.19:17-20. Then in setting up His Millennial Kingdom here on the earth, recorded in Rev.19:4 and 6. He does not return to heaven from that time, until the new heaven and earth is created by God in Rev.21:1.

The precise timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church is recorded in 2 Thes.2:1-8, in which the theme of it begins in the first verse: "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our being gathered to Him...," which is a clear reference to 1 Thes.4:17, where Paul stated that we will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky.

In vs 3 Paul made this statement according to the original translation: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, from vs 2, the seven year tribulation] will not come until the "apostasia." Greek term meaning "departure" [When we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky] occurs [first] and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction." The same vile person in vs 4 who abominates the temple of God and sets himself up as God.

The following is the translation history of the Greek term "apostasia" and the Latin term "discessio" Jerome translated apostasia as "departure," in 325 A.D.


Translation History of apostasia and Discessio:

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384 A.D.); Tyndale Bible (1526 A.D.); Coverdale Bible (1535 A.D.); Cranmer Bible (1539 A.D.); Breeches Bible (1576 A.D.); Beza Bible (1583 A.D.); Geneva Bible (1608 A.D.) .[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' " Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.?

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No good reason was ever given. [Most likely because of the RCC Amillianial theology].


The difference between the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Christ

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel/the 7 year tribulation/the Day of the Lord, triggered by the antichrist, who is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27 and the abomination of desolation. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, which triggers the seven year tribulation, in Rev.6:2.

Jesus Olivet Discourse in Mt.24:4-31 is an amplification of Dan.9:27, of His second coming to the earth. There is no resemblance of Mt.24:30-31, or in any of the counterparts in Mk.13 and Lk.21 of the second coming of Christ, to the earth, to that of the pre-trib rapture of the Church. When Jesus gathers us all into the clouds of the sky and takes us from there to our Father in heaven, according to as Jesus promises in Jn.14:2-4 and 28, with Paul's confirmation of the it in 1 Thes.4:14-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8, when it takes place, before the 7 year tribulation begins. When the man of lawlessness will be revealed, who is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27, the antichrist, seen in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8.

THAT JESUS RETURNS TO HEAVEN WITH ALL HIS SAINTS AT HIS SECOND COMING TO THE EARTH, AFTER THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION IS NON-SCRIPTURAL AND COMPLETELY FALSE. BUT RATHER, THE SAINTS ARE ALL SEEN RETURNING WITH JESUS FROM HEAVEN, WHEN HE RETURNS IN HIS SECOND COMING, DOCUMENTED IN ZECH.14:4-5; JUDE 14 AND IN REV.19:14! 1 Thes.4:16-17 has nothing to do with the second coming, but rather, is the pre-trib rapture of the Church, together with 2 Thes.2:1-8.

In Mt.24:30-31, Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth for a number of reasons [to fight the battle of armageddon and defeat the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten nation confederation allied to them, in Rev.19:17-20. NOTICE THAT ALL THE NATIONS MOURN, IN VS 30! AND WHY ARE THEY MORNING? BECAUSE THE JEWS SCATTERED THROUGHOUT THE WORLD FINALLY RECOGNIZE JESUS AS THEIR MESSIAH! SEE ZECH.12:10! He does not gather anyone to Himself in the clouds of the sky, nor does He return to heaven with them! But rather, to save the remnant of Israel, in Zech.14, to throw Satan into the Abyss for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3, to administer to the first resurrection, in Rev.20:4 and 6], and to establish His 1,000 year reign on the earth.

There are no saints meeting Him in the clouds of the sky, nor does He return to heaven with the saints to our Father in heaven, at His second coming to the earth, as He promises us He will in Jn.14:2-4 and 28 for the pre-trib rapture of the Church. In addition to the fact the raptured saints are seen returning with Jesus and His angels [From Mt.24:30] in His second coming to the earth in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, in His armies from heaven, riding white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. ["Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints," Rev.19:8 NIV].

The Scriptures clearly teach there is going to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church!


1. Seven years after the pre-trib rapture of the Church, the marriage of the Lamb/Jesus to His Bride/Church takes place as recorded in Rev.19:7-8 and then Jesus returns to the earth in His Second Coming, with His saints/Church following Him in His armies from heaven, in Rev.19:14, together with His angels, in Mt.24:31.

2.JESUS DOES NOT RETURN TO HEAVEN AT HIS SECOND ADVENT - AT THE END OF THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION/THE 70th AND FINAL WEEK OF GOD'S DECREE ON THE DESTINY OF ISRAEL - as recorded in Mt.24:30; Zech.14:5 and Jude 14, 2. but leads us into the battle of Armageddon, parentheticly recorded in Rev.14:14-20, against the two beasts/antichrist and false prophet and the ten nations allied to them. They are defeated and the two beasts are thrown into the lake of fire, recorded in Rev.19:17-20.

3. Satan is then thrown into the Abyss for 1,000 years, recorded in Rev.20:1-3. There is nothing in the Bible supporting your claim that all the wicked are thrown into the Abyss with Satan at all! When the wicked die, they all went to Sheol in OT times Hebrew/Hades in Greek/Hell in English, none of which is the Abyss of Rev.20:3. When the wicked die, from OT times on through to the present, they remain in Sheol/Hades/Hell until the second resurrection at the end of Jesus 1,000 year reign on the earth, with all the priests from the first resurrection of Rev.20:6, recorded in Rev.20:5, preceeding Satan's release from the Abyss in Rev.20:7.

4. The first resurrection will then take place, consisting of all those whom the 144,000 Israelite evangelists God will place on the earth in Rev.7:1-8, bring to the Lord during the seven year tribulation. They are the martyrs who come out of the tribulation, as recorded in the parenthetic passage of Rev.7:9-17, as recorded in Rev.20:4 and 6.

5. They will all be made priests of God and of Christ and rule with Him for 1,000 years here on the earth, who will bring millions to the Lord during that period of time.


3. and 4. Quote:
Category 3: The Wicked Living - (“destroyed and slain by brightness at Second Coming”)

Category 4: The Wicked Dead - (“remain dead for 1000 years”)



Quasar: Reference here is to all those who will survive the seven year tribulation, which will be one third of the world's population, recorded in Zech.13:8. You have alluded to them all being slain by the brightness of Jesus Second Coming, in 2 Thes.2:8. WHICH IS NON-SCRIPTURAL AND FALSE! That passage refers to the man of lawlessness, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27, the beast out of the sea, whom Satan will give his throne, power and great authority to, the antichrist! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WICKED SURVIVORS OF THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION - YET TO COME! They will all enter into the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ, here on the earth, as recorded in Rev.20:4 and 6. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE PRIESTS ARE FOR?

That the "wicked dead," you claim will be slain at the brightness of Jesus Second Coming remaining dead for 1,000 years is more non-Sacriptural false propecy! Out of approximately 2.5 billion survivors of the seven year tribulation, millions will be brought to the Lord by the martyrs who were made priests of who those participate in the first resurrection.

6. Following Jesus 1,000 year reign on earth, the second resurrection will take place, fulfilling Dan.12:2. Some will be raised to everlasting life and others to shame and everlasting contempt.

7. Satan will be released from the Abyss, build another army numbering as the sands of the sea and bring them against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. God will destroy the army with fire from heaven and throw Satan into the lake of fire forever, with the two beasts/the antichrist and the false prophet, recorded in Rev.19:20 and 20:7-10.

8. The great white throne judgement will then take place,with all the dead standing before the thrones of the judges and judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books that had been opened. Death and Hades [Sheol and Hell] gave up their dead and then thrown into the lake of fire. [NO MORE DEATH!] All those whose names are not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, according to Rev.20:15.

9. The present heaven and earth will pass away [Destroyed by fire as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7], and God will bring forth a new eternal heaven and earth, where all of God's people will live with Him forever, recorded in Rev.21:1-4.


AND THE ABOVE IS ONLY THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG!


Quasar
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 09:39:58 PM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Lysimachus

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I have a few questions.

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

When was "the week"?

Hi RevJWWhiteJr!  Welcome to my thread. :)

"The week" was between 27 A.D. and 34 A.D.   In 27 A.D Christ was baptized and anointed by the Holy Spirit. At this point, there was "one week" left for the Jewish nation.  Christ's baptism in 27 A.D. was at the end of the first "69 weeks" (483 years).  Counting 483 years from the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. brings you to 27 A.D.----and Luke 3 tells you that Christ's baptism was in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius.  The 15th year of the reign of Tiberius was 27 A.D.

From 27 A.D. to 31 A.D. (3 1/2 years) Jesus preached to the Jews.  After crucifying Him, Christ still extended mercy to the nation of Israel for another 3 1/2 more years--as the Disciples went and preached the good news of Jesus Christ.  For 3 1/2 years Christ stretched out His arms toward the national state of Israel, and even sent them the LAST prophet---Stephen.

In 34 A.D., the leaders (Sanhedrin) of National Israel stoned Stephen, the last prophet to death.  This was their final sin as a nation for carrying out the keys of the gospel to the world. God could no longer work with them as a nation.  In 34 A.D., Saul was converted to Paul, Peter received the vision in the net to not call any man (gentiles) unclean, Phillip baptized the Eunuch, and the gospel went forth to the Gentiles. 

It was AFTER the termination of the 70th week that the attention focussed on the Gentiles and the Church.   If there is any time frame for the future tribulation still to come, it's 1260, 1290 and 1335 literal days stated in Daniel 12, if anything.  But there is NO Biblical truth whatsoever for a "7 year tribulation", and a "Third Rebuilt Literal Jewish Temple".   Paul said numerous times that the Church was now the "temple" (naos) of God.  And the Antichrist (the Papal System) has come to "sit down in the temple (the church)" of God, claiming to be God (by claiming to forgive sins, and atone for sin--a direct attack on God's sanctuary in heaven). Every time Paul was referring to a literal temple, he used a different Greek word for "temple".  But every time he was referring to the "Church", he referred it as "naos". And then he employed this SAME Greek word (naos) in 2 Thessalonians 2.

The Church (ekklesia--which means "congregation") is simply the "body of Christ" (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 4:12).  ALL nations can be grafted into this true seed of Abraham. 

There is no longer a distinction between Jew and Greek. We are now all saved in Christ Jesus.  When Jesus comes back a second time unto salvation (Heb 9:28), we will ALL be treated as equal, and as one body. That middle wall of partition has come "crashing down", making both "one" in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:13-16; 3:4-6).

Hope that helps. :)

Offline Lysimachus

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Quote
Quasar: 1. 1 Thes.4:`16-17 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ. THE PASSAGE IS ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH, BEFORE THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION BEGINS. NOT AT THE END OF IT SEVEN YEARS LATER! They go to the mansions Jesus prepared for us in Jn.14:2-3 and 28, as confirmed by Paul in 1 Thes.4:15: "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you..." and completes verses 15-18 pertaining to the pre-trib rapture of the Church. The Church remain in heaven until the marriage to the Lamb takes place, in Rev.19:7-8. Then return with Jesus in His second coming to the earth, in His armies from heaven, in Rev.19:14.

And as I have shown in the past, there is a lot of science fiction built into this interpretation. The word "parousia" is clearly used in verse 15, which means "coming", and is the same word used in Matthew and Mark for the coming of the Lord.  Pre-tribulationalists will be accountable before God for not taking the passage JUST for what it says.  There are TOO many additives to try and make 1 Thess 4:13-17 anything else!

Yes, I agree, we are taken to the mansions at the Second Coming. The earth will be left void and DESOLATE!

"(23) I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. (24) I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. (25) I beheld, and, lo, THERE WAS NO MAN, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. (26) I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. (27) For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (28 ) For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it." (Jeremiah 4:24-28 )

I've got news. Gigantic news!  This is talking about the condition of the earth AFTER the Second Coming!  And if there are no people on the earth during this time, this COMPLETELY obliterates the possibility of a 7 year tribulation while the saints are in heaven, for that would mean that Christ sets up His earthly reign....but here, it clearly says there is NO MAN on the earth, and the "HEAVENS ARE BLACK".   As a result of? "all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord". 

"Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof....The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word." (Isa 24:1, 3)

"The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited [punished]." (Isaiah 24:19-22)

This is the condition of the earth during the 1000 years.  This is where Satan is bound.  On a desolated planet (that rests during the 7th millennium from human habitation) while the saints (all of them..Jews and gentiles) get to dwell in the mansions prepared for them in heaven for 1000 years! Not 7 years.  At the END of the 1000 years, the saints return with the New Jerusalem, and then the wicked (that were dead during the 1000 years) are resurrected, and Satan deceives them into besieging the New Jerusalem, that "beloved city" in Revelation 20.  It is during these 1000 years that the wicked are "shut up in prison", and after "many days" (1000 years), they shall be "visited [punished]". This means they will be resurrected to face the "second death".  (you can only have a "second death if you've died once before"). 

For 1000 years, the earth will be in ruins.  The Second Coming is premillennial---the First Resurrection---of the Righteous.  The Third Coming is postmillennial---Second Resurrection---of the Wicked. The Second Coming is the ONLY chance for salvation. No other time.

If you die without Christ today, and you come up in the Second Resurrection (postmillennial), then you know you're lost.  Now you face the judgment, and you are shown the exact nature of why you are lost as the books are opened.  Then you are thrown into the lake of fire.




Quote
1 Thes.4:16 is not a resurrection!

The statement by Paul in 1 Thes.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first,"does not mean the dead in Christ will be resurrected on the spot, as if a resurrection is about to occur. If Paul meant it that way, he would have documented it as a resurrection, which he did not!

Who says? Who says that Paul had to document it as a "resurrection"?  He has to use the word "resurrection" for us to know that that is what he is implying?  I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed.

But let me get this straight, are you saying that at the rapture, the dead church saints won't resurrect?  It's not computing.  It sounds like you are saying they went straight to heaven in spirit form at death. Later in this post I will demonstrate just how unbiblical this is.

Quote
Meaning that there would be three resurrections rather than the two that are recorded in Rev.20:4-6. Which would then have to be changed from the first and second, to the second and third resurrections. Or distorting the intended interpretation of it, by attempting to place it with the first resurrection, as you are doing!

That's only under the assumption that the 1 Thess 4:13-17 is talking about a fictitious pre-tribulation rapture.  But if we believe this to be the Second Coming (which I believe it is), then we no longer have to contend with this apparent contradiction.  The "first resurrection" that occurs in Revelation 20:6 is the SAME resurrection in 1 Thess 4:15. To say otherwise is to skip, hop, and dance between the raindrops---playing peekaboo, and ring-around the rosy.

But true Bible students do not play theological hopscotch.

Quote
But rather than meaning it to be a resurrection, it was the third of Paul's assurances to the Thessalonians, that all the members of their church, who had already died in Christ, would not miss the pre-trib rapture of the Church he was teaching them about.

The first of Paul's three assurances begins in vs 13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep [die], or to grieve like the rest of men [non-believers], who have no hope." [Parenthetics mine].

Then he followed up his first assurance to them that all those who had previously died in Christ would be together with them at the rapture of the Church in the very next verse [14]: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." Revealing to them, that Christ had raised all those who had died in Him, had also already been previously raised once before and been with Him in heaven ever since, as recorded in 2 Cor.5:6-8.

This argument has been dismantled in Prophetic Toolchest. when "God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep", He is not meaning "bringing them to the earth" at the Second Coming, but meaning, "bringing them TO HEAVEN" (not to earth!). 

Quote
There will not be any resurrected then, because all their dead in Christ had already been raised once before, in their spiritual bodies [As recorded in 1 Cor.15:44], following their physical death, when they went to be with Christ in heaven, immediately.

Of course there won't. Every saint that has gone to heaven stays in heaven for 1000 years, and every wicked left behind was struck dead by Christ's brightness and consuming fire.  This was the "rapture", and it is AT the rapture that the wicked are destroyed:

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1 Thess 5:3) 

This passage is a continuation of the same rapture event recorded in chapter 4 just previously. To say other wise is to INDUCE into scripture.  There is no HINT of there being a SPLIT "coming" between chapters 4 and 5.

Quote
Confirming Ecc.12:7 as well as 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirmed in vs 14 saying they are returning with Christ, when He returns, from heaven, according to vs 15. Therefore, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky for all those who belong to Him left here on earth alive, they will be caught up to meet the Lord, together with those who previously died in Him, who are already there!

You mean 1 Cor 15:6-8 (not 2 Cor 5:6-8). When people die, they do not go to heaven. Their spirit that goes back to heaven is not a "conscientious entity" that can think without its body.  The "spirit" that returns to God simply means the "life" goes back to God who originally gave it. That's all that it means.  Proof?  If one were to conclude that the spirit going up to heaven can think and see, they would have to also conclude that wicked go to heaven at death, because Ecclesiastes 3:16-21 proves unequivocally, and unapologetically, that the spirit of ALL men go "upward", and only the spirit of beasts go "downward". The context of verses 16-21 is speaking in context of BOTH the wicked AND the righteous.  The spirit of the wicked and the righteous goes UPWARD at death (meaning, it goes on record for the judgment....but it does not mean they are trekking through space. This is Walt Disney, fantastical, Pagan, Babylonian fiction). 

The only saints that "are already in heaven" are those who were resurrected in bodily form when Christ resurrected (Matthew 27:52,53; Ephesians 4:8 )--including Moses (who resurrected in bodily form), Elijah (who was translated), and Enoch (who was also translated).  It is THESE....one more time....THESE saints who will return with Christ AT the Second Coming.  Not RAPTURED saints at the beginning of a 7 year tribulation!

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The second of Paul's three assurances to the Thessalonicans that their dead in Christ will not miss the rapture of the Church is in vs 15, which states: "According to the Lord's own word [Recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are left [Believers] till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep [Died]." Of course not! Because they will have already been raised once before, and gone to be with the Lord in heaven in their spiritual bodies, and then return with Him when He comes from heaven! They certainly do not need a resurrection, because they are going to the spiritual world in heaven. In contrast to the bodies that will be necessary at the time of the resurrections, of those who are documented in Rev.20:4 and 6. Because they are to be priests of God and rule with Jesus for 1,000 years right here on the earth, in a human environment! [Parenthetics mine].

There are so many layers of error here, it is difficult for me to bear through this.  It is truly sad the confusion that has taken captive of the Christian world, who no longer are capable of reading the simplicity of the gospel. I simply DISAGREE that Paul is not referring to the resurrection in 1 Thess 4:15.  You are simply inducing information into the verse that does not belong there.

The foundation of your error is is that the dead know everything. NOBODY sees the Lord before they are given a body! Nobody! "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.”  ~ Job 19:25-27

The message of Paul is clear: The dead in Christ shall rise "FIRST", then we, who remain (yet living when Christ appears at the Second Coming) will be caught up "TOGETHER" with "THEM" (the ones who were sleeping--dead) to "meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess 4:17)

Talk about trying to manipulate texts to make them fit your theology!!!  This is the EPITOME of scriptural manipulation!!! And it is based on a satanic doctrine that people go to heaven in spirit form at death.  NOOOO!!!  They WAIT till the resurrection!!!

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." Psalm 146:4

If a saint went to heaven at death in spirit form, their thoughts would not perish, thus contradicting scripture.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.... Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.  Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10

"There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.", Ecclesiastes 9:10

"The grave cannot praise Thee, death cannot celebrate Thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise Thee, as I do this day." Isaiah 38:18, 19

"In death there is no remembrance of Thee: in the grave who shall give Thee thanks?" Psalms 6:5

"The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence." Psalms15:17

"Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." .... "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29, 34

Oh, you see, when it comes to Acts 2:34, Dispensationalists will conclude that this is referring to his "body" when it suits them!  But not when it comes to 1 Thess 4:15.  Then its just their spirit! Not a resurrection of the body.

"If the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished." I Corinthians 15:16-18. --  If for four thousand years the righteous had gone directly to heaven at death, how could Paul have said that if there is no resurrection, "they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished"?  No resurrection would be necessary.

"Behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12

It is QUITE clear that the righteous or the wicked are NOT "rewarded at death".  The "reward" (eternal life or death) is given when?  At his "coming".  Christ BRINGS his reward WITH HIM!  To conclude otherwise is to conclude that the righteous and wicked are rewarded at death, not the Second Coming.

Christ also makes it very clear that death is like sleep in John 11:11, and this is also confirmed in Psalms 13:3 where he calls it "the sleep of death".

Since Christ's resurrection, and ascension, not a single saint has gone to heaven.  All who have died since Christ's resurrection are sleeping in their graves.  If they do go to heaven at death, then they are truly not "sleeping", for their consciousness would be in heaven.  To get around this, Dispensationalists try to say that "only the body sleeps".  Really?  Says who?  It's called "semantic jugglery".  It doesn't say anywhere that their "body sleeps".  It says that the PERSON (the whole being) sleeps! Over and over and over again throughout scripture. If your spirit is in heaven or in hell-fire, conscious, then you are not really sleeping! Sleeping = "unconsciousness".

Nothing more, nothing less.

It's time to bring out the garbage truck, and haul all this trash to the dump. :)


(Continued...)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 04:56:32 PM by Lysimachus »

Offline Lysimachus

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The third and final assurance Paul wrote in vs 16, the subject of this thread, has already been addressed above.

There is also the false view by those, who attempt to make 1 Thes.4:16-17 a reference to the first resurrection in Rev.20:4 and 6, at the second coming of Christ, seven years after the timing Paul prophecied for it to take place. Which is not possible, because after we [All believers] have been caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, He is going to take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

Once again, this is under the false assumption that at the Second Coming we are not caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and taken to the mansions in John 14:2-4!  But we Adventist Historicists believe this!  Unlike Postmillennialists, Ammillennialists, or Preterists. The "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4 is the same event that takes us to the mansions in heaven as He promised in John 14:2-4. :)

Your problem, Quasar is that you are trying to refute me with information that does not address the Adventist Historicist belief system. You are using error to refute error, but it doesn't work when it comes up against the truth.

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Nowhere in the Bible is there a single passage of anyone called up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, in His second coming to the earth. Because the first of many things for Him to do, is in fighting the antichrist, the false prophet and their ten nation armies allied to them, in the battle of Armageddon and defeating them, recorded in Rev.19:17-20. Then in setting up His Millennial Kingdom here on the earth, recorded in Rev.19:4 and 6. He does not return to heaven from that time, until the new heaven and earth is created by God in Rev.21:1.

Actually it does say that we are taken into the clouds at the Second Coming:

"And then shall they see the Son of man coming [parousia--same as 1 Thess 4:15] in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from [Gr: Ek, 'out of'] the four winds, from [Gr: Apo, 'away from'] the uttermost part of the earth to [Gr: Heos, 'until' 'as far as' 'up to'] the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near." (Mark 13:26-28)

Did you just catch on what's going on here?  This verse alone completely destroys any last trace that the Second Coming and Catching Away into the clouds (rapture) are 2 separate events!

Dispensationalists say this event is describing the Second Coming, yet they completely fail to grasp that Mark 13:27 is clearly implying the "gathering together" of the Church into the clouds of heaven, just as 1 Thess 2:1,2 and 1 Thess 4:13-17 is. Mark's account along with the Greek CLEARLY implies that the Lord will gather his people out of the atmosphere after he has brought his people away from the earth up to or as far as the sky. These scriptures are not, in the remotest way, illustrating the return of Church saints with Christ at His glorious appearing. The word "Heos" (to) represents "going up" or "as far as" (See Luke 10:15, John 2:7; 2Cor 12:2; Heb 8:11).

Therefore, when Jesus comes the Second Time, where are the Church Saints that Paul was addressing "gathered to"?

They are gathered up into the sky (the heavens) at the revealing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven!

From there, we will be taken to heaven. Jesus clearly tells us that He is going to prepare a place in heaven for us, and he will receive us to take us there (John 14:2,3), and Revelation 19:1 concerning the future, John saw "much people in heaven, saying Alleluia".

In reality, it would require a book for me to dismantle all the underlying problems of what is supporting these faulty notions. Once again, there are so many false layers and premises here, I really don't find it worth tackling at this stage of the game. To peel off these layers, you will have to read my entire book.

I'll just briefly say that Armageddon is a spiritual warfare involving the whole world.  It is impossible to fit all these armies in the Valley of Megiddo. These are what we call LITERALISTIC interpretations of scripture. Not "literal", but "literalistic".

Armageddon will be realized when the wicked band together to attack God's people who are His faithful commandment keepers, and sound the messages of the Three Angels in Revelation 14.

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The precise timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church is recorded in 2 Thes.2:1-8, in which the theme of it begins in the first verse: "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our being gathered to Him...," which is a clear reference to 1 Thes.4:17, where Paul stated that we will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky.

In vs 3 Paul made this statement according to the original translation: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, from vs 2, the seven year tribulation will not come until the "apostasia." Greek term meaning "departure" [When we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky] occurs [first] and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction." The same vile person in vs 4 who abominates the temple of God and sets himself up as God.

The following is the translation history of the Greek term "apostasia" and the Latin term "discessio" Jerome translated apostasia as "departure," in 325 A.D.


Translation History of apostasia and Discessio:

The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384 A.D.); Tyndale Bible (1526 A.D.); Coverdale Bible (1535 A.D.); Cranmer Bible (1539 A.D.); Breeches Bible (1576 A.D.); Beza Bible (1583 A.D.); Geneva Bible (1608 A.D.) .[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' " Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.?

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No good reason was ever given. [Most likely because of the RCC Amillianial theology].

There is nothing wrong with the translation "departure".  But it doesn't mean a physical departure in which Church saints disappear into the sky like a lightening bolt.  The intended meaning of "departure here means: DEPARTURE OF THE FAITH...and we can clearly see this reality after Paul's death, when the apostasy crept into the Church and the Catholic Church was born as a result of this apostasy.

Apostasia comes from the verb aphistemi (to withdraw). In Hellenistic Greek it means political rebellion (Plutarch, Galba 1). In the LXX it has more the sense of religious apostasy (Josh 22:22; Jer 2:19). This is also the meaning in the NT (Acts 21:21; 2 Thess 2:3-12). Apostasia is anomia (2 Thess 2:3, 7: lawlessness, i.e. hostility to God's law, vs. 4). The consequence is lying (vss. 9, 11), error (vs. 11), injustice (vss. 10, 12) and perdition (vss. 3, 10). Paul's argumentation is based on Daniel 7, 8, 11. (See H. Schlier, "Apostasia," in Theologisches Wörterbuch zum NT 1:510-11.)

The above reasoning that says "apostasia" (meaning departure) means a physical departing of the church rather than departing from the faith is what one terms a root fallacy for which D. A. Carson (in Exegetical Fallacies) wrote:

"One of the most enduring of errors, the root fallacy presupposes that every word actually has a meaning bound up with its shape or its components. In this view, meaning is determined by etymology; that is, by the root or roots of a word."

Here is the proper definition of "apostasia":

"1. a falling away, defection, apostasy"

That is clearly the sense of the word rendered "a falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3; likewise the occurrence rendered "to forsake" [Apostasia] Moses in Acts 21:21. It does not mean to physically depart, as in walking away from Moses.

So whether one wishes to interpret it "departure" or not, it matters not.  Why?  For the intended meaning is "departure" of what? Of the faith!  It means "to forsake the faith--or forsake God's people"

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The difference between the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Christ

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel/the 7 year tribulation/the Day of the Lord, triggered by the antichrist, who is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27 and the abomination of desolation. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, which triggers the seven year tribulation, in Rev.6:2.

The seven seals, like the 7 churches, represent "7 periods of Church history".  The first seal (White Horse) is opened up during the time of the early apostolic Church, riding out "conquering and to conquer". This is a spiritual warfare against the Devil, and against sin.  The seven seals are, more-or-less, synonymous with the 7 churches throughout human history.  The first stage of Great Tribulation began in 538 A.D. and ended in 1798 A.D. For 1260 years, the Papacy slaughtered and killed somewhere around 50 million Christians through the power of the European kings and Inquisition.

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Jesus Olivet Discourse in Mt.24:4-31 is an amplification of Dan.9:27, of His second coming to the earth. There is no resemblance of Mt.24:30-31, or in any of the counterparts in Mk.13 and Lk.21 of the second coming of Christ, to the earth, to that of the pre-trib rapture of the Church. When Jesus gathers us all into the clouds of the sky and takes us from there to our Father in heaven, according to as Jesus promises in Jn.14:2-4 and 28, with Paul's confirmation of the it in 1 Thes.4:14-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8, when it takes place, before the 7 year tribulation begins. When the man of lawlessness will be revealed, who is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27, the antichrist, seen in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8.

There is nothing but conjectures here based on layers of false premises.  The major false premise here is that we are not taken to the mansions prepared for us at the Second Coming. I believe the scriptures clearly portray this. Salvation is ONLY at the Second Coming (Heb 9:28).  Christ does not appear TWO more times for salvation. But ONE more time...the "SECOND time".

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THAT JESUS RETURNS TO HEAVEN WITH ALL HIS SAINTS AT HIS SECOND COMING TO THE EARTH, AFTER THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION IS NON-SCRIPTURAL AND COMPLETELY FALSE. BUT RATHER, THE SAINTS ARE ALL SEEN RETURNING WITH JESUS FROM HEAVEN, WHEN HE RETURNS IN HIS SECOND COMING, DOCUMENTED IN ZECH.14:4-5; JUDE 14 AND IN REV.19:14! 1 Thes.4:16-17 has nothing to do with the second coming, but rather, is the pre-trib rapture of the Church, together with 2 Thes.2:1-8.

First of all, there is no "after the seven year tribulation" because there is no such thing as a marked out "seven year tribulation". 

Secondly, Zechariah 14:4-5 is referring to the THIRD COMING for the wicked (to condemn the wicked...not for salvation) to fight against those against the New Jerusalem.  John the Revelator redefines the Old Testament type of Zecheriah 14 and relocates it to the END of the millennium in Revelation 20 when the wicked are gathered against the "beloved city".

Thirdly, the basis on which Dispensationalists use Jude 14 to prove that this event ("second coming") occurs only after a pre-trib rapture is that it says "the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints" (Jude 14).  But this does not prove a pre-tribulation rapture. How so? The assumption is that the word "saints" here always means the "redeemed".  But it can very well mean "angels". If it were always to mean the "redeemed", then one would have to conclude that when the Lord descended on Mount Sinai, he descended with ten thousands of those who were raptured before the Israelites reached Mount Sinai:

"And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them." (Deut 33:2)

Paul also uses this same terminology concerning the Second Coming:

Notice he's talking to the Church:
"And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, AT the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints." (1 Thess 3:12,13)

Paul is clearly WARNING the believers that they will be READY, establishing their hearts UNBLAMEABLE before God AT the coming of the Lord with ALL his saints.  The Greek word for "saints" simply means "holy ones".  It can also mean angels.  Daniel 8:13 calls angels "saints".

The message here is...."get ready, and do what is right...purify yourselves now so that you may be clean and blameless when the Lord appears in the clouds with all his angels".  That is the message here!

And FINALLY, even if the word "saints" here did mean the "redeemed", it still doesn't prove anything. Why so?  Because those redeemed saints that DO return with Christ at the Second Coming would be those that Christ took to heaven at His resurrection when He came out of the tomb!

"Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them." (Psalms 68:18)

Paul quotes this in Ephesians 4:8:

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." (Ephesians 4:8 )

Who are these people that ascended up to heaven with Christ at His resurrection?

Answer:

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." (Matthew 27:52,53)

These saints that went to heaven went to heaven in BODILY FORM!  Not disembodied souls or spirits.  Moses also was resurrected in bodily form, and that's why Michael and Satan "contended over the body of Moses" (Jude 1:9).  Enoch was translated (went to heaven without tasting death...was changed into a new body).  Elijah also went to heaven without tasting death, and was changed into his new body.

So when Christ comes back the Second Time, He will not be returning with pre-tribulation rapture saints, but He will be returning with saints who were taken to heaven upon His ascension, in addition to Moses, Elijah, and Enoch (who went to heaven in bodily form)!!!

So this idea of "saints" coming back with Christ proves nothing in favor of a Pre-Tribulation rapture. Nothing!

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In Mt.24:30-31, Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth for a number of reasons [to fight the battle of armageddon and defeat the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten nation confederation allied to them, in Rev.19:17-20. NOTICE THAT ALL THE NATIONS MOURN, IN VS 30! AND WHY ARE THEY MORNING? BECAUSE THE JEWS SCATTERED THROUGHOUT THE WORLD FINALLY RECOGNIZE JESUS AS THEIR MESSIAH! SEE ZECH.12:10! He does not gather anyone to Himself in the clouds of the sky, nor does He return to heaven with them! But rather, to save the remnant of Israel, in Zech.14, to throw Satan into the Abyss for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3, to administer to the first resurrection, in Rev.20:4 and 6], and to establish His 1,000 year reign on the earth.

Once again, this is based on the false predilection that Israel and the Church are distinct.  But as I have shown, Israel is now realized in the Church.  Nowhere does it say that these nations that "mourn" end up being "converted.  They are eternally lost, that is why they mourn. The Old Testament typology in Zechariah 12:10 is now realized in the era of the Church, as the "spirit of grace" was poured out on the Church at Pentecost, and it will happen again at the Latter Rain (see Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17) These Old Testament types will no longer come to pass in their local, Palestinian, typological form.  Rather, these Old Testament types have been redefined by the New Testament.  The "remnant of Israel" is the Church (see Revelation 12:17). 

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There are no saints meeting Him in the clouds of the sky, nor does He return to heaven with the saints to our Father in heaven, at His second coming to the earth, as He promises us He will in Jn.14:2-4 and 28 for the pre-trib rapture of the Church.

This only works under the above suppositions mentioned, but I have addressed them already.

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In addition to the fact the raptured saints are seen returning with Jesus and His angels [From Mt.24:30] in His second coming to the earth in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, in His armies from heaven, riding white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. ["Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints," Rev.19:8 NIV].

As I have already shown, "saints" can mean "angels", or it can mean those saints who went to heaven at Christ's ascension. The "fine linen" of the saints is also the same as the "angels", so it could be "angels" that have the "fine linen" (see Rev 15:6). Therefore, Revelation 19:14 could be referring to angels as the armies in fine linen, clean, and white linen, or it could be those saints that went up with Christ at His ascension dressed in fine linen, or both! Not Pre-tribulation Rapture saints.

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« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 02:47:05 PM by Lysimachus »

Offline Lysimachus

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The Scriptures clearly teach there is going to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church!

1. Seven years after the pre-trib rapture of the Church, the marriage of the Lamb/Jesus to His Bride/Church takes place as recorded in Rev.19:7-8 and then Jesus returns to the earth in His Second Coming, with His saints/Church following Him in His armies from heaven, in Rev.19:14, together with His angels, in Mt.24:31.

Once again, this is under the predilection that the saints that return with Christ are pre-tribulation rapture saints, when they could very well mean angels, redeemed saints at Christ's resurrection, or both!

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2.JESUS DOES NOT RETURN TO HEAVEN AT HIS SECOND ADVENT - AT THE END OF THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION/THE 70th AND FINAL WEEK OF GOD'S DECREE ON THE DESTINY OF ISRAEL - as recorded in Mt.24:30; Zech.14:5 and Jude 14, 2. but leads us into the battle of Armageddon, parentheticly recorded in Rev.14:14-20, against the two beasts/antichrist and false prophet and the ten nations allied to them. They are defeated and the two beasts are thrown into the lake of fire, recorded in Rev.19:17-20.

Once again, this idea (that Christ does not return to heaven at His second advent) cannot be extracted from Matthew 24:30.  The very next verse (31) states that the saints are gathered together from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other, and Mark 13:27 is Mark's version of Matthew's same account in Matthew 24:30 and 31, and he clarifies it by showing that the saints are clearly gathered "away from" the earth and "up to" the uttermost parts of heaven (especially upon close inspection of the Greek). Zechariah 14:5 is alluding to AFTER the millennium, when Gog and Magog surround the New Jerusalem, that "beloved city"--the event in Zechariah 14:5 is relocated to the end of the Millennium by John the Revelator, revealing it's antitypical, world-wide, application.

As for Jude 14, it is likely a dual application which could apply to the Second Coming, the return of the Saints in the New Jerusalem at the END of the millennium, or both.  But either way, as I have already pointed out, the mention of "saints" does not prove a pre-tribulation rapture--whether they be "redeemed" or "angels".

The saints that are delivered at Armageddon are God's end-time people, but they are not with Him in the clouds.  As He comes riding on His horse (symbolically speaking), He delivers His saints from the wicked foes, and this deliverance will vacuum up all the believers into the clouds of glory. 

The proof that God punishes the wicked at the SAME time He delivers the saints into the clouds of glory is found in 2 Thess 1:6-7 where it says:

"God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels" (2 Thessalonians 1:6-7 NIV).

This proves the righteous are delivered WHILE the wicked are destroyed.

"Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompense; he will come and save you." (Isaiah 35:4)

"The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. THEN the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." (Matthew 13:41-43 NKJV).  ---this takes place AT the Second Coming!

As for Revelation 19:17-20, this is proof that no one is left on the earth during the millennium. The flesh of "all men" are being devoured, and this is taking place while the saints are in heaven (verse 1). The whore (same as the beast) has already been judged (verse 2).  Revelation 19:11 begins by backing up and repeating elements of the Second Coming (it is not written chronologically--because Revelation 6:14 says heaven departed like a scroll, and Babylon is destroyed in Revelation 18), but this time, the focus is against ALL the nations.  John is notorious for backing up, and filling in details. Not writing down the very next chronological event.

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3. Satan is then thrown into the Abyss for 1,000 years, recorded in Rev.20:1-3. There is nothing in the Bible supporting your claim that all the wicked are thrown into the Abyss with Satan at all! When the wicked die, they all went to Sheol in OT times Hebrew/Hades in Greek/Hell in English, none of which is the Abyss of Rev.20:3. When the wicked die, from OT times on through to the present, they remain in Sheol/Hades/Hell until the second resurrection at the end of Jesus 1,000 year reign on the earth, with all the priests from the first resurrection of Rev.20:6, recorded in Rev.20:5, preceeding Satan's release from the Abyss in Rev.20:7.

The word "sheol" simply means "grave".  The abode of the dead.  There is not one trace of proof that the wicked are conscious in "sheol".  Isaiah 14 is clear about the fate of the wicked with Satan.  Except Satan will be alive and conscious, while the wicked will be dead, reserved, and awaiting the "second resurrection".

The fate of Lucifer on this planet during the 1000 years is very well depicted in Isaiah 14:15-20:

"Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house ["the grave [is] mine house" Job 17:13]. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the RAIMENT of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. THOU SHALT NOT BE JOINED WITH THEM IN BURIAL, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned." (Isaiah 14:15-20)

This is a clear allusion to Satan's binding in Revelation 20. The binding has to do with the fact that Satan will have nobody to tempt or to manipulate. They'll all be dead. All the kings of the earth lie in glory, everyone in their own grave. But Satan won't be joined with them in burial.  He'll have to wait it out for 1000 years on this dark and dreary planet, contemplating on the consequences of his actions, and seeing the results of his rebellion.  He wanted to have this earth, so he gets his wish.  A destroyed earth, with nobody on it.  This will be the BEST punishment Satan can have.

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4. The first resurrection will then take place, consisting of all those whom the 144,000 Israelite evangelists God will place on the earth in Rev.7:1-8, bring to the Lord during the seven year tribulation. They are the martyrs who come out of the tribulation, as recorded in the parenthetic passage of Rev.7:9-17, as recorded in Rev.20:4 and 6.

The 144,000 will be Church Saints. Here is a long article proving it:  Who Will Sing The Song? Understanding the 144,000.  The martyrs that come out of the tribulation are Church Saints. Literal Israel was over in 34 A.D.

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5. They will all be made priests of God and of Christ and rule with Him for 1,000 years here on the earth, who will bring millions to the Lord during that period of time.

God's Church Saints are known as a "holy...and royal priesthood" now (see 1 Peter 2:5, 9; Rev 1:6). There is not one single verse that tells you the 1,000 years is on the earth. The reign on the earth as priests is seen in Revelation 5:10, but this is after the millennium, after the saints return to the earth with the New Jerusalem and after the earth is made new.  We are priests now, we will be priests with Christ in heaven during the millennium, and we will be priests with Christ and reign "for ever and ever" AFTER the millennium (Revelation 22:5)


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3. and 4. Quote:
Category 3: The Wicked Living - ("destroyed and slain by brightness at Second Coming")

Category 4: The Wicked Dead - ("remain dead for 1000 years")


Quasar: Reference here is to all those who will survive the seven year tribulation, which will be one third of the world's population, recorded in Zech.13:8. You have alluded to them all being slain by the brightness of Jesus Second Coming, in 2 Thes.2:8. WHICH IS NON-SCRIPTURAL AND FALSE! That passage refers to the man of lawlessness, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27

All three of the "he's" in Daniel 9:27 is referring to Jesus Christ, not the Antichrist. Your idea that the "he's" in 9:27 refer to Antichrist is nothing but the figment of wild imagination, and is not based on scripture. Zechariah 13:8 and 9 is not referring to after the Second Coming, but before. 1 Peter 1:7 lifts up the antitypical interpretation here and shows how the church saints will be "tried with fire" and "more precious than gold". John takes Zechariah 13:8, and 9, and applies it to the Laodicean Church in Revelation 3:18 where He says: "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see"

Jeremiah 4:24-28, Isaiah 24, Zephaniah 1 and 2, Isaiah 14 and 13 and Revelation 19 make it very clear that there will be NO MAN left on the planet.

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, the beast out of the sea, whom Satan will give his throne, power and great authority to, the antichrist! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WICKED SURVIVORS OF THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION - YET TO COME! They will all enter into the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ, here on the earth, as recorded in Rev.20:4 and 6. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE PRIESTS ARE FOR?

This is not scriptural. ALL the wicked will be destroyed AT the Second Coming (See Isaiah 13:9, 10; Isaiah 11:4; Zephaniah 1:3; 2 Thess 2:8; 1 Thess 5:3). These are the "rest of the dead that live not again until the thousand years are finished".  For 1000 years, there is nobody on the earth.  At the end of the 1000 years, ALL the wicked nations that were slain at His brightness RESURRECT to face the judgment! This is when Satan marshals them against the New Jerusalem, that "beloved city".

We are priests today, and we will be priests "for ever". Rev 1:6; 5:10; 22:5. 

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That the "wicked dead," you claim will be slain at the brightness of Jesus Second Coming remaining dead for 1,000 years is more non-Sacriptural false propecy! Out of approximately 2.5 billion survivors of the seven year tribulation, millions will be brought to the Lord by the martyrs who were made priests of who those participate in the first resurrection.

Where in the Bible does it say the "martyrs" go out and preach and bring people to the Lord during the 1000 years? Revelation 22:12 clearly says that when Christ comes the second time, He will reward "every man" according to their works. Not "some men". Every man receives their reward AT the Second Coming, AT the rapture (same event!).  There are NO second chances!

Sounds like you are giving the wicked THREE chances!  1. Before the tribulation, 2. During the tribulation, and 3. During the millennium.  As I have shown, it appears that you are the one that is UNSCRIPTURAL.

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6. Following Jesus 1,000 year reign on earth, the second resurrection will take place, fulfilling Dan.12:2. Some will be raised to everlasting life and others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:2 is referring to the First Resurrection, primarily. But it is also partially alluding to the Second Resurrection of the damned. Michael (Jesus) stands up for His people just before the Second Coming.

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7. Satan will be released from the Abyss, build another army numbering as the sands of the sea and bring them against God's people, surrounding Jerusalem. God will destroy the army with fire from heaven and throw Satan into the lake of fire forever, with the two beasts/the antichrist and the false prophet, recorded in Rev.19:20 and 20:7-10.

Satan will build his army from the "rest of the dead" who had no part in the "first resurrection", but came up in the "second resurrection".  While all the saints are safe inside the New Jerusalem, that is settled down on the Mount of Olives, Satan will rally his forces from all the resurrected wicked dead---"Gog and Magog". The Beast (the Papacy), and the False Prophet (False Protestantism) will be among that throng, and will be cast into the Lake of Fire with Satan, his Demons, and all his wicked hosts. 

Every single wicked person that has ever lived will be outside the New Jerusalem on Satan's side.  And every single righteous that has ever lived will be inside the New Jerusalem on Christ's side.

God's justice will be vindicated!  Adventist Historicist eschatology is the ONLY version that enabled every single person that has ever lived to be alive at once simultaneously.  Righteous inside the Celestial City, Wicked outside the celestial city.

This is simple, and it makes perfect sense---unlike the quagmire of semantic jugglery that must ensue to make any sense out of Dispensational guagmatology.

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8. The great white throne judgement will then take place,with all the dead standing before the thrones of the judges and judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books that had been opened. Death and Hades [Sheol and Hell] gave up their dead and then thrown into the lake of fire. [NO MORE DEATH!] All those whose names are not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, according to Rev.20:15.

I agree. But all the dead are the wicked whom the sea gave up, and are the same as the "rest of the dead" that lived not again until the expiration of the 1000 years---to be cast into the Lake of Fire. The Great White Throne judgment takes place inside the New Jerusalem, while all the wicked stand outside of it.  God's Throne is in the New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:1). This also helps to prove that the "beloved city" is the New Jerusalem.

The Lake of Fire surrounds the entire earth, save the spot where the New Jerusalem rests.  All the wicked will be "burned up" to "ashes", including Satan (Ezekiel 28:17-19). They will not burn with eternal torment. See Malachi 4:1,3; Rev 20:9). The Greek word "for ever" means from "age to age"--a long period of time. 

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9. The present heaven and earth will pass away [Destroyed by fire as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7], and God will bring forth a new eternal heaven and earth, where all of God's people will live with Him forever, recorded in Rev.21:1-4.

Agreed. This earth will be remade new after the fire has completely burned it up and purified it.  All the saints will be inside the New Jerusalem when this happens, and we will get to watch the earth be remade before our very eyes.  Then the gates will be opened, and we will reign with Christ "for ever and ever".
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 11:54:49 PM by Lysimachus »

Offline RevJWWhiteJr

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Hi RevJWWhiteJr!  Welcome to my thread. :)

Thank you.

"The week" was between 27 A.D. and 34 A.D.

Please document for me, (concisely) within that week, when the sacrifices and other inclusions ceased.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 08:47:28 PM by RevJWWhiteJr »
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Offline Lysimachus

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Thank you.

You're welcome. :)

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Please document for me, (concisely) within that week, when the sacrifices and other inclusions ceased.

Christ brought an end to sacrifices and sanctuary services in 31 A.D. at his death on the cross.

He said "It is finished" (John 19:30), and "the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent." (Matthew 27:51) John himself recognized this fact when he said "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29)

At this point, ALL meaning and value to the sacrificial system ceased. The moment the temple veil tore from top to bottom, it signaled the end of the earthly sanctuary service.

Daniel 9:27 says.... "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease."

I want you to notice that the text does not say that Jesus "caused" the sacrifices to cease in the midst of the week.  He simply "declared" it when He said "it is finished".  There is a "cause" and an "effect". The "cause" was in 31 A.D., but the physical "effect" did not occur until 70 A.D. when finally the Romans destroyed Jerusalem.

One could argue that Jews and other Arabic people still, in some places, offer animal sacrifices.  While Christ's sacrifice was truly the ultimate sacrifice that all animal sacrifices pointed forward to, people, in their rebellion, continued in their obstinacy, and were unwilling to accept Christ's death as the complete sacrifice. So instead, they performed animal sacrifices anyway, even though they had been brought to an end.  After that point, all animal sacrifices were meaningless, because they had ceased.  So even after the cessation of sacrifices went through legally, the Jews continued to rebel and continue them anyway.

Historical documents testify that just as the priest lifted up his hand with the knife to slay the lamb in the temple, Christ died on the cross, the temple veil tore in twain, and the lamb escaped.



« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 10:31:58 PM by Lysimachus »

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That's what I was confused about, due to the wording, and discovered the same explanation to another on another message board. The passage says "caused the sacrifice to cease", which did not physically occure. What is meant is that it caused the sacrifice to be (however one wishes to put it) of none effective (which is mentioned by another passage of scripture, and is correct as it agrees.). But every believer should believe that. Jesus was the sacrifice that the system portrayed. But the system did not cease until many years later (certainly not within the "week" mentioned in the passage from your perspective and beliefs). That would suggest that the event in question, (the actual cessation of the sacrifice mentioned, "within" its own said week) would be still future.

Otherwise the passage is incorrect, and that can't be.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 07:41:23 AM by RevJWWhiteJr »
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That's what I was confused about, due to the wording, and discovered the same explanation to another on another message board. The passage says "caused the sacrifice to cease", which did not physically occure. What is meant is that it caused the sacrifice to be (however one wishes to put it) of none effective (which is mentioned by another passage of scripture, and is correct as it agrees.). But every believer should believe that. Jesus was the sacrifice that the system portrayed. But the system did not cease until many years later (certainly not within the "week" mentioned in the passage from your perspective and beliefs). That would suggest that the event in question, (the actual cessation of the sacrifice mentioned, "within" its own said week) would be still future.

Otherwise the passage is incorrect, and that can't be.

Hmm...well, that would be tragic if you were to hinge your entire "future-seven-year-trib" doctrine on this one "phrase" that to you must mean that the cessation of physical sacrificing must cease in the midst of the week.  Bible commentarians for centuries have always understood that this Hebrew terminology was meaning the spiritual cessation of the sacrifices, not the literal.

Keep in mind, RevJWWHITEJr, that the Historical-Messianic computation laid forth in these threads are capable of converting the Muslim world, but not the Dispensational construct.  The Messianic version is capable of pointing irrefutably to the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world.  While the Dispensational construct completely leaves out the week for which points irrefutably to Jesus Christ as the true and ultimate sacrifice.  It is ludicrous to believe that the 70 weeks mention nothing of Christ's sacrifice.

Christ truly "caused" the cessation of all sacrifices, although the Jews continued to do them anyway.  One could say "the mayor closed down the shopping centers, but people still continued to shop".  Or one could say that a general declared a "cease fire", but some of the soldiers kept firing anyway.

All I ask RevJWwHITEJr, is that you  prayerful and carefully consider all the data that has thus far been presented concerning the 70 weeks.  Keep in mind that the decapitation of the 70th week was a view that was shaped only by Extra-Biblical writings that found its way into the writings of Hyppolytus.  It was not until the Protestants separated the Bible from the Extra-Biblical writings that they were able to see "70 consecutive weeks". Most Protestants throughout history interpreted the 70 weeks in light of the historical-messianic computation.

I encourage you to buy a book entitled "The Chronology of Ezra 7" by Horn and Wood. Also, take out time to read D.S. Farris' online book entitled "Prophetic Toolchest for Dismantling the Dispensational Delusion" found here: http://hearingthetruth.org/Table_of_Contents.htm

All 12 chapters (550 pages total) online for free. My recommendation would be to start from the beginning and read all the way till the end.  It is essential if you are going to see the "big picture".  You will be blown away. Just make the time.  Words cannot describe the things you will learn if you stay steady, and take in all the information little at a time.   I also encourage you to listen to Mike Warren's and D.S. Farris' radio shows on the same site: http://hearingthetruth.org/programs/library.htm

Focus on The Second Coming of Christ, Futurism, The Little Horn of Daniel 7 and 8, the System of the Dragon, the Counter Reformation, The Israel of God series, the Davidic Sanctuary, The Two Horned Beast and the New World Order series, etc. etc. Much of the information in the radio shows is covered in the online book and vice versa. 

God bless you brother as you continue to study.

~ Lysimachus
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 04:59:56 PM by Lysimachus »

Offline RevJWWhiteJr

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My only concern in this particular post was with the reference to "cessation", or stop. It didn't... "stop" I mean. I understand with any furtherance of its continuation it was non-productive, (or unacceptable to God, with the sacrifice of Jesus being completed), but the sacrifices did not cease, as the passage itself refers to.
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My only concern in this particular post was with the reference to "cessation", or stop. It didn't... "stop" I mean. I understand with any furtherance of its continuation it was non-productive, (or unacceptable to God, with the sacrifice of Jesus being completed), but the sacrifices did not cease, as the passage itself refers to.

I understand what you're saying. But I believe the passage is meaning the end of its system, not the end in the sense of putting a stop to people doing them. Christ's death was the end of the earthly sacrificial system, and that is how I believe Daniel 9:27 should be interpreted in light of many other facts.

A good question to ask (and maybe you can answer it) is, why would the Antichrist want to put a stop to sacrifices? To me continuing sacrifices would only be to his favor, to give him the privilege of insulting the Messiah. I don't see how it makes any theological sense whatsoever for the Antichrist to want to put a "cessation" to animal sacrifices.

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That would be a good point except for the fact the sacrifices are to the God of Israel. Of which the anti-christ in his arrogance can not allow, him proclaiming himself as the one to be worshiped, and Israel rejecting him as such. For such, he begins to persecute Israel, (beyond anything they have experienced to date) thereby rendering them incapable of continuing the sacrificial system.

And, (the persecution beyond anything they have experienced) would from your perspective been at that time, according to Jesus in all three records of the Olivet Discourse. That would negate any and all conflicts (including the Jews) until the present not being as great as what was locally experienced by the nation of Israel at that time.

The period of time between the crucifixion and 70 AD did not effect the whole of the world (only the known world), and that, only by what was held by the Romans. As I understand it, the time spoken of by Jesus in the gospels and recorded by John in Revelation, will effect every single living person on the face of the planet.
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That would be a good point except for the fact the sacrifices are to the God of Israel. Of which the anti-christ in his arrogance can not allow, him proclaiming himself as the one to be worshiped, and Israel rejecting him as such. For such, he begins to persecute Israel, (beyond anything they have experienced to date) thereby rendering them incapable of continuing the sacrificial system.

And, (the persecution beyond anything they have experienced) would from your perspective been at that time, according to Jesus in all three records of the Olivet Discourse. That would negate any and all conflicts (including the Jews) until the present not being as great as what was locally experienced by the nation of Israel at that time.

The period of time between the crucifixion and 70 AD did not effect the whole of the world (only the known world), and that, only by what was held by the Romans. As I understand it, the time spoken of by Jesus in the gospels and recorded by John in Revelation, will effect every single living person on the face of the planet.

Have you considered that Christ's words on the Olivet Discourse had a dual application?  There is no doubt that while Christ was speaking of the local Abomination of Desolation spoken of by the Prophet Daniel, what happened to the Jews in 70 A.D. was a "foreshadowing", or a "miniature model representation" of the destruction of the world at the very end of time.

The first Abomination of Desolation spoken of the Prophet Daniel took place when the Romans setup their standards outside the walls of Jerusalem. The Christians in Jerusalem remembered these words, and the moment the standards were setup, they fled Jerusalem. Providentially, Cestius retreated his army away from Jerusalem, and this small time between the time of Cestius' retreat and the return of the Roman army under the command of Titus gave the Christians inside Jerusalem enough time to flea to Pela.  Not one single Christian perished in the destruction of Jerusalem. Why? Because they remembered the words of Jesus.

However, the apocalyptic language employed by Christ no doubt gave a future application on a world-wide scale.  However, this future application of the tribulation was veiled before the eyes of the Apostles.

Notice what is said in The Great Controversy:

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With the overthrow of Jerusalem the disciples associated the events of Christ's personal coming in temporal glory to take the throne of universal empire, to punish the impenitent Jews, and to break from off the nation the Roman yoke. The Lord had told them that He would come the second time. Hence at the mention of judgments upon Jerusalem, their minds reverted to that coming; and as they were gathered about the Saviour upon the Mount of Olives, they asked: "When shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Verse 3.

The future was mercifully veiled from the disciples. Had they at that time fully comprehended the two awful facts--the Redeemer's sufferings and death, and the destruction of their city and temple--they would have been overwhelmed with horror. Christ presented before them an outline of the prominent events to take place before the close of time. His words were not then fully understood; but their meaning was to be unfolded as His people should need the instruction therein given. The prophecy which He uttered was twofold in its meaning; while foreshadowing the destruction of Jerusalem, it prefigured also the terrors of the last great day.  (The Great Controversy, p. 25)


The Great Tribulation that is to happen in the latter days, RevJWWhiteJR, is not mentioned in the 70 weeks of Daniel whatsoever. They are mentioned in Daniel 12, and after the healing of the wound in Revelation 13:11-18, Revelation 12:17; Revelation 17:12-18. 

There will be a Great Tribulation no doubt. But the 70 weeks of Daniel have nothing to do with Daniel 11, 12 or Revelation. The 70 weeks are past, and have no application to end-time eschatology.   

The Antichrist is not going to be a single man. The Antichrist began in Paul's day (the elements of the Catholic Church were already brewing), and the Antichrist will continue all the way up until the consummation in the clouds of glory. Read my article "The Antichrist Beast Power - Exclusively a Single Man?".  That explains in great detail as to why the Antichrist is a system, HEADED by a man, but not a single man himself.  The identity of the Antichrist irrefutably points to the Papal System.  There is no way around it.

The Pope has already sat in the Temple (God's Church) proclaiming himself to act on the part of God.  We have numerous statements where the Pope claims to be God on earth.  The Antichrist attacks Christ's High Priestly ministry in heaven by "taking the place" of Christ's mediatorial role. That's what "anti" means, it means "in place of Christ".  The Antichrist, in no way, on the outside, is going to pretend to be "against Christ".  The Devil is far more crafty and clever than that. The Devil simply isn't stupid. In order to win the favor of the masses, the Antichrist is going to pretend to be in harmony with God.  This is how He will deceive the masses. This is the ONLY way "all the world will wonder after the beast" (Revelation 13:3)

Lucifer himself will take the seat of the Papacy, work miracles, and call fire down from heaven. This will be the crowning "second" manifestation of the Man of Sin since the deadly wound in 1798.

Keep in mind that every time Paul called the Church the "temple", he used the Greek word "naos" (See 1 Cor 3:16; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:21). 

However, when Paul used the word temple in reference to a "physical earthly building", he used "Heiron" and "Eidoleion" (See 1 Cor 9:13; 1 Cor 8:10; Acts 22:17; Acts 26:21; Acts 25:8; 24:6,12,18, etc.)

It would be irresponsible on the part of scholars to say that Paul used the word "naos" in every place applying it to the Church, only then for Paul to shift gears and apply it to a physical rebuilt "Third Temple" at the end of time. This is inconsistent.

The Greek word "Naos" is never once employed in scripture to refer to an earthly temple building.  It means either the Heavenly Temple or the Church on earth. The Spiritual Temple (the Church) on earth mirrors the Literal Temple in heaven, and vice versa.  This is Christ's "two-fold" sanctuary.  The only literal temple is the one in heaven, and the ministration that occurs in that temple by Christ our High Priest reflects what is occurring on the earth in His Church.

Paul picked the word "naos" specifically in 2 Thess 2:4 because he was talking about the Church.   The Papacy has USURPED the position of Christ and replaced His mediatorial work, by claiming to forgive sins and taking away the truth out of the minds of the people.  The Papacy sits in the Church claiming to be God and revealing so through her actions.

And just in case people do not know the Harlot Woman and the Beast she rides are one and the same entity, just two different characteristics of the same entity "Political and Religio".

Therefore, the "temple [naos] of God" in 2 Thess 2:4 is not, and cannot be a literal rebuilt temple in Palestine, rather, God's Church on earth--meaning, "Christianity".
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 04:19:11 PM by Lysimachus »

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Since I ended up editing a lot of the information in my above post, you might want to re-read it.

In addition to the above, I thought you might find the following enlightening:


Dr. Henry Grattan Guinnes, D.D., F.R.A.S. (1835-1910) has often been called "England's Greatest Teacher of Prophecy."  Founder of the East London Institute for Home and Foreign Missions (1872), Dr. Guinnes was considered to be one of the three greatest preachers of his day, right along with Dwight L. Moody and Charles Haddon Spurgeon.  (Guinness was sometimes called "The Northern Spurgeon.")  A deep student of prophecy, and especially of the antichrist topic, he commented over 100 years ago:

"Observe the place occupied by the man of sin--the "temple" or house of God.  This is not, and cannot be, any Jewish temple.  Paul, who uses this express in his prophetic portrait--employs it both in Corinthians and Ephesians with reference to the Christian Church...To Paul emphatically the temple of God was the Church of Christ. This is the temple in which his prophetic eye saw the man of sin seated.  It is no question of his bodily location in any structure of wood and stone, but of something far higher.  The temple of God is that "spiritual house" in which He dwells.  It is built of "living stones," of true believers. It is in here that the man of sin was to usurp the place of God.  This is the "mystery," the dread danger, the deadly evil, predicted by the Apostle." -- Henry Grattan Guiness, Romanism and the Reformation (1887) (Reprinted by Hartland Publications, Rapidan, VA:1995) 49.

Edward Bishop Elliott's (1793-1775) classic, four-volume Horae Apocalypticae--A Commentary on the Apocalypse, was considered by Spurgeon, in his Comments on the Commentaries, to be "The standard work on the subject" of prophetic interpretation.   In his comments on 2 Thessalonians 2:4, E.B. Elliott agreed with Guinness:

"The impiety and pride of this Man of Sin were thus predicted;--that he would be pre-eminently an opposer to Christ and his Church;---that he would exalt himself above all that was called God, or an object of worship, i.e. above the gods many and lords many in the gentile heaven and earth, including the potentates and kings of this world;--that he would sit in God's temple, (a phrase here meaning the Church) and actually there exhibit himself as God." -- Edward Bishop Elliott, Horae Apocalypticae--A Commentary on the Apocalypse, Vol. 3, Fifth Edition (1862) (Reprinted by Still Waters Revival Books, Edmonton, Canada) 97-99.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 05:07:44 PM by Lysimachus »

Offline RevJWWhiteJr

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Since I ended up editing a lot of the information in my above post, you might want to re-read it.

In addition to the above, I thought you might find the following enlightening:


Dr. Henry Grattan Guinnes, D.D., F.R.A.S. (1835-1910) has often been called “England’s Greatest Teacher of Prophecy.”  Founder of the East London Institute for Home and Foreign Missions (1872), Dr. Guinnes was considered to be one of the three greatest preachers of his day, right along with Dwight L. Moody and Charles Haddon Spurgeon.  (Guinness was sometimes called “The Northern Spurgeon.”)  A deep student of prophecy, and especially of the antichrist topic, he commented over 100 years ago:

“Observe the place occupied by the man of sin—the “temple” or house of God.  This is not, and cannot be, any Jewish temple.  Paul, who uses this express in his prophetic portrait…employs it both in Corinthians and Ephesians with reference to the Christian Church… To Paul emphatically the temple of God was the Church of Christ. This is the temple in which his prophetic eye saw the man of sin seated.  It is no question of his bodily location in any structure of wood and stone, but of something far higher.  The temple of God is that “spiritual house” in which He dwells.  It is built of “living stones,” of true believers. It is in here that the man of sin was to usurp the place of God.  This is the “mystery,” the dread danger, the deadly evil, predicted by the Apostle.” – Henry Grattan Guiness, Romanism and the Reformation (1887) (Reprinted by Hartland Publications, Rapidan, VA:1995) 49.

Edward Bishop Elliott’s (1793-1775) classic, four-volume Horae Apocalypticae—A Commentary on the Apocalypse, was considered by Spurgeon, in his Comments on the Commentaries, to be “The standard work on the subject” of prophetic interpretation.   In his comments on 2 Thessalonians 2:4, E.B. Elliott agreed with Guinness:

“The impiety and pride of this Man of Sin were thus predicted;--that he would be pre-eminently an opposer to Christ and his Church;---that he would exalt himself above all that was called God, or an object of worship, i.e. above the gods many and lords many in the gentile heaven and earth, including the potentates and kings of this world;--that he would sit in God’s temple, (a phrase here meaning the Church) and actually there exhibit himself as God.” – Edward Bishop Elliott, Horae Apocalypticae—A Commentary on the Apocalypse, Vol. 3, Fifth Edition (1862) (Reprinted by Still Waters Revival Books, Edmonton, Canada) 97-99.

Wouldn't that make the pope the anti-christ? Accepted by the world as the supreme leader of the one world government? Then at the same time, imply that there will be no final Jewish temple built in Jerusalem (of which all plans are presently complete, and ready at the present  time to be employed when the opportunity presents itself.)
Author: The Partial Rapture "Theory" Explained / Escaping The Coming Storm

The Partial Rapture Forum : partialrapture.net
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October 09, 2014, 02:15:06 PM
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Religious Lie: "God only paid for sins until the next time you sin."
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Religious Lie: "God only paid for sins until the next time you sin."
 

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