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Author Topic: The Origins of Dispensational Futurism -- (blockbuster--exclusive information!)  (Read 18567 times)

Offline Lysimachus

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Wouldn't that make the pope the anti-christ? Accepted by the world as the supreme leader of the one world government? Then at the same time, imply that there will be no final Jewish temple built in Jerusalem (of which all plans are presently complete, and ready at the present  time to be employed when the opportunity presents itself.)

That would be partially correct. Except I believe the ultimate Antichrist will be Lucifer himself when he is crowned Pope, masquerading as an angelic, Christ-like being.

There may very well be a third temple in Jerusalem, but that's not the temple Paul is talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, nor will Palestine be the focal point of Bible prophecy. It may be implicated in world-events, but it won't be the center-piece as portrayed to us by popular teachers such as Hal Lindsey, Thomas Ice, Pat Robertson, Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins, John Haggee, Perry Stone, Chuck Missler, etc. etc.  As sincere as these men may be, they are sincerely deceived and being used as pawns by the enemy to voice false prophecies (the embodiment of the false prophet). If there is a third-temple rebuilt in Jerusalem, that will be nothing more than the Devil's counterfeit prophecy, making people think that is where the big events will transpire.

The reality is, the "temple" being spoken about in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is not a literal temple.  It is the Church. Whenever Paul is referring to a literal temple building in his other writings, he uses the Greek words "Eidoleion" (1 Cor 8:10) and "Hieron" (Acts 26:21; 1 Cor 9:13).  But whenever he is referring to the Spiritual Temple of the Church, such as in 1 Cor 3:16,17; 6:19; 2 Cor 6:16; Ephesians 2:21, guess which Greek word he uses?  He uses the Greek word "NAOS!"

Guess which Greek word he used in 2 Thessalonians 2:4?

You got it, NAOS! :D

He's talking about an Anti-Christian power that would SIT in God's Church claiming to be God through the forgiveness of Sins.  It is talking about a spiritual temple here, and the Pope and the entire Papal System fits this criteria to an exact T!.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 10:51:47 PM by Lysimachus »

Offline Quasar

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Hi RevJWWhiteJr!  Welcome to my thread. :)

Quasar: The following is nothing but more attempts to interpret prophecy from allegorical spiritualizing the Scriptures.  What guesswork you select, your collegue with the same distortions of the Scriptures will post a different version.  It is clear you were never gifted by the Holy Spirit of prophecy/eschatology from the fiction you post.

L: "The week" was between 27 A.D. and 34 A.D.   In 27 A.D Christ was baptized and anointed by the Holy Spirit. At this point, there was "one week" left for the Jewish nation.  Christ's baptism in 27 A.D. was at the end of the first "69 weeks" (483 years).  Counting 483 years from the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. brings you to 27 A.D.----and Luke 3 tells you that Christ's baptism was in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius.  The 15th year of the reign of Tiberius was 27 A.D.

Q: Dates provided of Jesus ministry between 27 A.D. and 34 A.D., wherein most expositors place it more accurately at 29/30 A.D. to 32/33 A.D.  There is nothing in Lk.3 that documents Jesus baptism in 27 A.D.  Lk.3 states it was Tiberius 15th year of his reign all right, but no such thing that Jesus baptism took place in that year.  His baptism was nothing more than a symbol for the rest of us who need it.

He was produced by the Holy Spirit, who became His Father in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35.  His Father, the Holy Spirit, lived within Him, as recorded in Jn.14:10.  At the end of the 69th week, Dan.9:26, Jesus had been crucified and Jerusalem and the temple destroyed, by the Roman army under general Titus.  The end of the 69th week, of 483 years, comes at the Triumphant entry of Jesus into Jerusalem, riding the foal of a donkey, in either 32 or 33 A.D., fulfilling Zech.9:9.

The decree by Artaxerxes to Nehemiah came in His 20th year, 445 B.C., recorded in Neh.2:1-9, and is the only decree of four that was o rebuild Jerusalem, the walls and the streets.  All the others had to do with rebuilding the temple.  Artaxerxes descree in His 7th year of reign, recorded in Ezra 7:7, does not record a single thing about rebuilding Jerusalem, but rather, the take the temple gold and silver back that Nebuchadnezzar had taken in 586 B.C.


L:[/b ]From 27 A.D. to 31 A.D. (3 1/2 years) Jesus preached to the Jews.  After crucifying Him, Christ still extended mercy to the nation of Israel for another 3 1/2 more years--as the Disciples went and preached the good news of Jesus Christ.  For 3 1/2 years Christ stretched out His arms toward the national state of Israel, and even sent them the LAST prophet---Stephen.

In 34 A.D., the leaders (Sanhedrin) of National Israel stoned Stephen, the last prophet to death.  This was their final sin as a nation for carrying out the keys of the gospel to the world. God could no longer work with them as a nation.  In 34 A.D., Saul was converted to Paul, Peter received the vision in the net to not call any man (gentiles) unclean, Phillip baptized the Eunuch, and the gospel went forth to the Gentiles. 

It was AFTER the termination of the 70th week that the attention focussed on the Gentiles and the Church.   If there is any time frame for the future tribulation still to come, it's 1260, 1290 and 1335 literal days stated in Daniel 12, if anything.  But there is NO Biblical truth whatsoever for a "7 year tribulation", and a "Third Rebuilt Literal Jewish Temple".   Paul said numerous times that the Church was now the "temple" (naos) of God.  And the Antichrist (the Papal System) has come to "sit down in the temple (the church)" of God, claiming to be God (by claiming to forgive sins, and atone for sin--a direct attack on God's sanctuary in heaven). Every time Paul was referring to a literal temple, he used a different Greek word for "temple".  But every time he was referring to the "Church", he referred it as "naos". And then he employed this SAME Greek word (naos) in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Q: Which is a complete distortion of the prophetic Scriptural facts!  The 70th and FINAL WEEK [7 years] of God's decree upon the final destiny of Israel in this age is the 7 year tribulation, the Day of the Lord, Jesus taught His disciples about, in Mt.24:4-31.  An amplification of Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week.  Responding to His disciples questions as to what the sign of His return would be and of the END OF THE AGE!  Your views are much the same as Preterists, who place all prophecy as historic which is complete heresy!  The 1290 days and the 1335 days refer to events that will take place after the 70th week/7 year tribulation is over, referring to the Holy Festivals of Israel, such as the Feast of Tabernacles.  There will be a new third physical temple as is crystal clear in Dan.9:27 and in 2 Thes.2:4   

L: The Church (ekklesia--which means "congregation") is simply the "body of Christ" (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 4:12).  ALL nations can be grafted into this true seed of Abraham. 

There is no longer a distinction between Jew and Greek. We are now all saved in Christ Jesus.  When Jesus comes back a second time unto salvation (Heb 9:28), we will ALL be treated as equal, and as one body. That middle wall of partition has come "crashing down", making both "one" in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:13-16; 3:4-6).

Q: The Church is the One Body of Christ in which we are all one with both He and our Father in heaven, recorded in Jn.17:21-22 and in 1 Cor,12:13.  Consisting of Jews and Greeks [People of all language and nations].  The term "church" was transliterated from the Greek ekklesia which refers to all of us who belong to the One Body of Christ.

When Israel finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, near the end of the 70th week/7 year tribulation, Jn.10:16 and Rom.11:25-26 will be fulfilled.


L: Hope that helps. :)

Q: There is no way any of that is of any help to those who seek the Scriptural truth about the end times prophecies!


Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Quasar

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Quote by Lysimachus:

1. That would be partially correct. Except I believe the ultimate Antichrist will be Lucifer himself when he is crowned Pope, masquerading as an angelic, Christ-like being.

2. There may very well be a third temple in Jerusalem, but that's not the temple Paul is talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, nor will Palestine be the focal point of Bible prophecy. It may be implicated in world-events, but it won't be the center-piece as portrayed to us by popular teachers such as Hal Lindsey, Thomas Ice, Pat Robertson, Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins, John Haggee, Perry Stone, Chuck Missler, etc. etc.  As sincere as these men may be, they are sincerely deceived and being used as pawns by the enemy to voice false prophecies (the embodiment of the false prophet). If there is a third-temple rebuilt in Jerusalem, that will be nothing more than the Devil's counterfeit prophecy, making people think that is where the big events will transpire.

3. The reality is, the "temple" being spoken about in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is not a literal temple.  It is the Church. Whenever Paul is referring to a literal temple building in his other writings, he uses the Greek words "Eidoleion" (1 Cor 8:10) and "Hieron" (Acts 26:21; 1 Cor 9:13).  But whenever he is referring to the Spiritual Temple of the Church, such as in 1 Cor 3:16,17; 6:19; 2 Cor 6:16; Ephesians 2:21, guess which Greek word he uses?  He uses the Greek word "NAOS!"

Guess which Greek word he used in 2 Thessalonians 2:4?

You got it, NAOS!

He's talking about an Anti-Christian power that would SIT in God's Church claiming to be God through the forgiveness of Sins.  It is talking about a spiritual temple here, and the Pope and the entire Papal System fits this criteria to an exact T!.



Q: 1. Which reveals your complete lack of eschatological understanding!  According to Rev.13:1-9, the dragon, who is Satan, will give his throne, power and great authority to the beast out of the sea, who is the antichrist!

2. More eschatological guesswork and bearing false witness against qualified and degreed theologian expositors, placing your own non-Scriptural fiction above their superior knowledge and knowledge of eschatology.

Attempting to rework the Scriptures from your studies of the Greek, was done long before you were ever thought of by experts.  Which has long been the guidelines we received from the experts who translated our Bibles into English for us.  Present attempts to use that as any argument for your views is completely invalid.

For the events pertaining to the battle of Armageddon Jesus will lead both His angels and all of us who belong to Him, in our glorified indestructable bodies, against the two beasts, the antichrist and the false prophet and the ten horns/nations allied to them, in Judiah and surrounding Jerusalem.  See all of Zech.14, and don't miss verses 4-5 where Jesus returns in His second coming to the Mount of Olives with all of His saints/Church, and angels, recorded in Mt.24:31.  Also in Rev.19:14 through 20.  The parenthetic disasterous results are seen in Rev.14:14-20.

The beast/antichrist will not be the Pope!  He was already dead at the time Jesus dictated Revelation to John in Rev.17:8 and 11.  Notice that at that time, "now is not."  He will not be brought out of the Abyss until he appears in Dan.9:27 as all three of the "he's" in that verse. [Seen also in Dan.7; 8 and 11 also].

3. The temple referred to in Dan.9:27 and in 2 Thes.2:4 is a new third temple yet to be built.  If that does not satisfy you, do a Google search with Messianic sites pertaining to a new temple.

The false world religion is the RCC which the beast/antichrist and ten horns/nations allied to him hate, and will destroy.  Then there will be a one world religion as described in Rev.13:14-15, everyone must worship the image of the beast/antichrist or be killed!

Your allegorical spiritualizing eschatology is completely off the wall, the the new temple is the Church!  It is no such thing, as the Scriptures clearly reveal.


Quasar

 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 11:18:19 PM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Quasar

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Originally posted by Quasar:
 1 Thes.4:`16-17 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ. THE PASSAGE IS ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH, BEFORE THE SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION BEGINS. NOT AT THE END OF IT SEVEN YEARS LATER! They go to the mansions Jesus prepared for us in Jn.14:2-3 and 28, as confirmed by Paul in 1Thes.4:15: "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you..." and completes verses 15-18 pertaining to the pre-trib rapture of the Church. The Church remain in heaven until the marriage to the Lamb takes place, in Rev.19:7-8. Then return with Jesus in His second coming to the earth, in His armies from heaven, in Rev.19:14.


Originally posted by Lycimachus:
1. And as I have shown in the past, there is a lot of science fiction built into this interpretation. The word "parousia" is clearly used in verse 15, which means "coming", and is the same word used in Matthew and Mark for the coming of the Lord.  Pre-tribulationalists will be accountable before God for not taking the passage JUST for what it says.  There are TOO many additives to try and make 1 Thess 4:13-17 anything else!

2. Yes, I agree, we are taken to the mansions at the Second Coming. The earth will be left void and DESOLATE!

3. "(23) I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. (24) I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. (25) I beheld, and, lo, THERE WAS NO MAN, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. (26) I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. (27) For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (28 ) For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it." (Jeremiah 4:24-28 )

4. I've got news. Gigantic news!  This is talking about the condition of the earth AFTER the Second Coming!  And if there are no people on the earth during this time, this COMPLETELY obliterates the possibility of a 7 year tribulation while the saints are in heaven, for that would mean that Christ sets up His earthly reign....but here, it clearly says there is NO MAN on the earth, and the "HEAVENS ARE BLACK".   As a result of? "all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord". 

"Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof....The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word." (Isa 24:1, 3)

"The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited [punished]." (Isaiah 24:19-22)

5. This is the condition of the earth during the 1000 years.  This is where Satan is bound.  On a desolated planet (that rests during the 7th millennium from human habitation) while the saints (all of them..Jews and gentiles) get to dwell in the mansions prepared for them in heaven for 1000 years! Not 7 years.  At the END of the 1000 years, the saints return with the New Jerusalem, and then the wicked (that were dead during the 1000 years) are resurrected, and Satan deceives them into besieging the New Jerusalem, that "beloved city" in Revelation 20.  It is during these 1000 years that the wicked are "shut up in prison", and after "many days" (1000 years), they shall be "visited [punished]". This means they will be resurrected to face the "second death".  (you can only have a "second death if you've died once before"). 

6. For 1000 years, the earth will be in ruins.  The Second Coming is premillennial---the First Resurrection---of the Righteous.  The Third Coming is postmillennial---Second Resurrection---of the Wicked. The Second Coming is the ONLY chance for salvation. No other time.

7. If you die without Christ today, and you come up in the Second Resurrection (postmillennial), then you know you're lost.  Now you face the judgment, and you are shown the exact nature of why you are lost as the books are opened.  Then you are thrown into the lake of fire.




Response by Quasar: The above is a classic case of a fictionalized version of Scriptural eschatology, and one of the worst the author has contributed on this forum, in diluting the Word of God!

1. There is no science fiction from the epistles of Paul to the Thessalonians that I quoted, except for the fuzzy logic you attempt to put into it!  Parousia does not mean coming!  It means THE PRESENCE OF, as well as coming, which will take place first at the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, when we will be CAUGHT UP to meet Jesus in the clouds of the sky, and the second time at His second coming of to the earth 7 years later, with all of us He raptured 7 years before!

We will be CAUGHT UP to meet Jesus in the clouds of the sky, in 1 Thes.4:17.  From there, He will take us to our Father in heaven so we can be with Him, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28!  Confirmed by Paul in 1 Thes.4:15, when he wrote: "According to the Lord's own word..." and goes on to amplify what Jesus taught us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28, about the pre-trib rapture of the Church in 1 Thes.4:16-17!

Your concerns for pre-tribbers accountability to God is of no concern to any of us because we are in complete agreement with what He teaches us.  Meanwhile, I sincerely hope you are granted the exact conditions of your end times views!   

2. Show me one shred of Scriptural evidence to support your guesswork that Jesus is going to take us to any mansions at His second coming!  Paul alluded to Jesus own word, from 1 Thes.4:15, referring to when all of us who belong to Christ will be CAUGHT UP to meet Him in the clouds of the sky, in vs 17, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven.  None of the Scriptures referring to Jesus second coming say a single thing about His turning around, from the Mount of Olives in Zech.14:5, to take anyone back to our Father in heaven!  Both of letters to the Thessalonians, in 1 Thes.4:13-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8 are about the pre-trib rapture of the Church and have nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Chrisr, when He will bring all of us with Him when He comes, in His armies from heaven, in Rev.19:14, where we will be seen riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean!  ["Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints/Church." Rev.19:8  NIV].
The mansions Jesus went to prepare for us in Jn.14:2-3 will not be activated until after the present heaven and earth pass away [Destroyed by fire, in 2 Pet.3:7] and God provides us with a new heaven and earth recorded in Rev.21:1-5.

3. This part of your claims reveals how little you understand Biblical prophecy.  Jer.4:23-28 is a part of God's revelation to Jeremiah what is going to happen to Israel if they don't repent and come back to Him, preceding the invasion by Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians who destroyed Judah and Jerusalem along with Solomon's temple.  It has nothing whatever to do with eschatology!

4. Reference to Isa.24 is the exact same thing in Dan.9:27; Mt.24:4-31; Mk.13:5-27; Lk.21:8-28 and in Rev.6:1-17; they are all about the Day of the Lord, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel, the seven year tribulation, which you deny will take place!  When it comes to interpreting the prophetic/eschatological Scriptures, it's time for you to sit down and leave them to those who are qualified to do so!

The saints/Church will indeed be raptured before the 7 year tribulation begins and be with Jesus and our Father in heaven, according to Jn.14:2-3 and 28; 1 Thes.4:13-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8.  However, there will be millions who will be brought to the Lord during the 7 year tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists God will place on the earth, in Rev.7:1-8, to replace the raptured Church, at that time.  The Great Multitude of Rev.7:9-17 are the results of their efforts, and the very same martyrs who will participate in the first resurrection in Rev.20:4 and 6.  Who paid with their lives to believe in Jesus during the 7 year tribulation.  They are called the tribulation saints and do not belong to the Church
That the saints/Church return with Jesus at His second advent to the earth, following Him,  in His armies from heaven, in Rev.19:14 and Zech.14:4-5, has previously been addressed.  With reference to Isa.24:19-22 is about the Great White throne judgement just preceding the destruction of the present heavens and earth, in Rev.20:11-15.  At that time and place, the only ones left will be the uncountable billions who have been reconciled to God by Jesus Christ, and are in heaven, until the new heaven and earth is provided by God in Rev.21:1.  This does not take place until after Jesus 1,000 year reign on earth is over.  All those who will participate in the first resurrection will be made priests of God and of Christ and rule wit Him for 1,000 years, according to Rev.20.4 and 6.  They will bring millions more to the Lord during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

5. Your views here are again straight of the walls of la la land!  Satan will be chained and locked up in the Abyss, concurrent with Jesus Millennial reign here on the earth.  The population of the earth will be but one third from what it was in the beginning of the 7 year tribuation, according to Zech.13:8.  For example, if there will be 7 billion people alive at the beginning of the 7 year tribulation, there will only be 2.333 billion left at the end of it.

Show me anywhere in the Scriptures that support your guesswork that the one body of Christ will be spending 1,000 years in the mansions Jesus has been prparing for us.  Especially since they won't be available until the new heaven and earth has come and the present heaven and earth is gone.

All the saints will be present with Jesus, right here on earth, during His 1,000 year reign.  After that, Satan will be set free, rebell against God and establish an army the size of the sands of the sea.  They will come against the saints around Jerusalem and God will destroy the army with fire and sulfur from heaven and throw Satan into the lake of fire, to be tormented forever.

The wicked who were in Hell will still be there during Jesus 1,000 year reign, and those who will be wicked during that period will join them until the Great White throne judgement, at the end of Jesus 1,000 year reign here on earth.  All those who participate in the second resurrection will fulfill Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46.  If you are among the Godless and wicked still alive at the Great White throne judgement, you will die both deathes simultaneously, when thrown into the lake of fire, according to Rev.20:15.

6. More guesswork!  Jesus Millennial reign here on the earth, is God's "seventh day of rest for all of His people," according to Heb.4:1-11.  The earth will by no means be in a complete state of destruction.  Given 1,000 years to rebuild what was destroyed is certainly sufficient time to do so with a great majority of it left to be enjoyed by all those who participate.

Show me anywhere in the Bible where you find support for a alleged third coming at the end of Jesus 1,000 year reign here on the earth.  [His reign will never end, but it will continue forever on the new heaven and earth].  The millions of priests out of the first resurrection, ruling with Jesus for 1,000 years will bring millions more to their salvation during that time!

7.  You finally got one right!  Congratulations!

Quasar   
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 11:51:54 PM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

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I am confused.  We start with Eternal Security and end up with a treatise on the Origin of Dispensationalism.  It can't be a synonymous  argument.  I know the doctrine of election has been around prior to Calvin, Augustine and is found in some early fathers of the Church.  Pau seems to have believed the same that Eternal Security.  It did not rise out of dispensationalism.


Offline Lysimachus

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Not sure what  you're talking about Baptist-boy, this is not a thread about Eternal Security.  This is the "Prophecy & End Time Events" forum, and this particular topic is about dispensationalism.  We never were discussing Eternal Security in this thread.

Offline Lysimachus

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Part 1

Quote
Quasar: The following is nothing but more attempts to interpret prophecy from allegorical spiritualizing the Scriptures.  What guesswork you select, your collegue with the same distortions of the Scriptures will post a different version.  It is clear you were never gifted by the Holy Spirit of prophecy/eschatology from the fiction you post.

"Spiritualizing of the scriptures"

Let's see:

1. I believe in a literal, future resurrection.

2. I believe in a literal future Second Advent.

3. I believe in a literal millennial period of 1000 years.

4. I believe in a literal Temple in heaven.

5. I believe Jesus is literally inside the Heavenly Temple.

6. I believe in a Literal New Jerusalem.

7. I believe in a literal future Hell-Fire--the Lake of Fire.

8. I believe in a literal Antichrist--realized in the Papal System.

Hardly can you call this "allegorical spiritualization".

Quote
I said:
L: "The week" was between 27 A.D. and 34 A.D.   In 27 A.D Christ was baptized and anointed by the Holy Spirit. At this point, there was "one week" left for the Jewish nation.  Christ's baptism in 27 A.D. was at the end of the first "69 weeks" (483 years).  Counting 483 years from the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. brings you to 27 A.D.----and Luke 3 tells you that Christ's baptism was in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius.  The 15th year of the reign of Tiberius was 27 A.D.

You said:
Q: Dates provided of Jesus ministry between 27 A.D. and 34 A.D., wherein most expositors place it more accurately at 29/30 A.D. to 32/33 A.D.

I never placed Jesus' ministry between 27 A.D. and 34 A.D. Jesus' ministry encompassed a total of about 4 Passovers, which means His ministry lasted 3.5 years, into the 70th week

Christ was crucified in the "midst" of the 70th week, in 31 A.D. His ministry lasted till 31 A.D.

The Ministry Of Jesus Was 3. 5 Years Into The 70th Week

Childhood to Manhood (Autumn 5 B.C. to Autumn A.D. 27)

Matt. Chap. 1 - Chap. 2
Mark  (Nothing)
Luke 1 - 2; 3:23 - 38
John 1:1 - 18

Early Ministry (Autumn A.D. 27 to spring of A.D. 28)

Matt. 3 - 4:11
Mark 1:1 - 13
Luke 3:1 - 18, 21 -- 23; 4:1 - 13
John 1:19 - 2:12

Ministry in Judea (first Passover A. D.28 to second Passover in A. D. 29)

Matt. 14:3 - 5
Mark (Nothing)
Luke 3:19, 20
John 2:13 - Chap. 5:47

Ministry in Galilee (second Passover A. D. 29 to third Passover A. D. 30)

Matt. Chap. 4:12 - Chap. 14:1, 2, 6 - 36; Chap. 15:1 - 20
Mark Chap. 1:14 - Chap. 7:1 - 23
Luke Chap. 4:14 - Chap. 7:35; Chap. 8:1 - Chap. 9:17; 11:14 - 32; 13:18 - 21 John Chap. 6:1 - Chap. 7:1

Retirement From Public Ministry Retirement (third Passover A. D. 30 to Autumn A. D. 30)

Matt. Chap.15:21 - Chap. 20:34; 26:6 - 13
Mark 7:24 - Chap. 10:52; 14:3 - 9
Luke 7:36 - 50; Chap. 9:18 - Chap. 11:1 - 13, 33 - 54; Chap. 12 - 19:28
John Chap.7:2 - Chap. 12:9

Passion Week (fourth Passover A. D. 31)

Matt. Chap. 21 - Chap. 26:1 - 5, 14 - 19, 21 - 45, 57 - 75; 27:1 - 61
Mark Chap. 11 - Chap. 14:1, 2, 10 - Chap. 15:47
Luke Chap. 19:29 - Chap. 23:56
John Chap. 12:10 - Chap. 19:42

Crucifix in Passion Week  (A. D. 31)

Matt. 27:31 - 56
Mark 15:20 - 41
Luke 23:26 - 49
John 19:17 - 37

(This list is a less complex version from the SDA study Bible, ACADEMY ENTERPRISE, INC, 1999.)

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There is nothing in Lk.3 that documents Jesus baptism in 27 A.D.  Lk.3 states it was Tiberius 15th year of his reign all right, but no such thing that Jesus baptism took place in that year.  His baptism was nothing more than a symbol for the rest of us who need it.

Luke 3 clearly, and unambiguously places the Baptism of Christ in 27 A.D.

Notice:


Luke
3:1   Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene, 
 3:2   Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness
....
 3:7   Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 
....
3:16   John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire
 3:17   Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. 
 3:18   And many other things in his exhortation preached he unto the people. 
 3:19   But Herod the tetrarch, being reproved by him for Herodias his brother Philip's wife, and for all the evils which Herod had done, 
 3:20   Added yet this above all, that he shut up John in prison. 
 3:21   Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened
 3:22   And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
 3:23   And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli....


It was the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius that John the Baptist was called to preach and baptized.

It was this same year that he was baptizing.

It was this same year that Jesus showed up---right on time when John the Baptist was called.

It's too clear to miss.

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He was produced by the Holy Spirit, who became His Father in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35.  His Father, the Holy Spirit, lived within Him, as recorded in Jn.14:10.  At the end of the 69th week, Dan.9:26, Jesus had been crucified and Jerusalem and the temple destroyed, by the Roman army under general Titus.  The end of the 69th week, of 483 years, comes at the Triumphant entry of Jesus into Jerusalem, riding the foal of a donkey, in either 32 or 33 A.D., fulfilling Zech.9:9.

There is nothing whatsoever in the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 to indicate that the 69th week terminates at Christ's triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was the Messiah the Prince at His baptism, not at His triumphal entry. The word "Messiah" means "the anointed one". At Jesus' baptism, He was "anointed with the Holy Spirit" (See Acts 10:37,38; Luke 4:18; 3:21,22).  There is no exegetical basis, whatsoever, to attribute the phrase "Messiah the Prince" to Christ's triumphal entry into Jerusalem on a donkey.  This triumphal entry took place at the mid-point of the 70th week, a few days prior to His crucifixion (69 1/2 weeks had transpired since the commencement of this prophetic time). The 69 weeks terminate at Christ's anointing at His baptism. Immediately after Christ's baptism, He said: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand." (Mark 1:15). Which "time" was Christ referring to?  He was referring to the 69 weeks mentioned in Daniel 9:25. It was at the end of this 69 weeks that Christ began His ministry to "make strong the covenant with many for one week" (Daniel 9:27) (See also Matt. 26:28; Mk. 14:24).

There is also no exegetical basis whatsoever to take Zechariah 9:9 and attach it to the end of the 69th week. This triumphal entry occurred in the "midst" of the 70th week. Christ was already "Messiah" for 3 ½ years, since His baptism and anointing in 27 A.D.

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The decree by Artaxerxes to Nehemiah came in His 20th year, 445 B.C., recorded in Neh.2:1-9, and is the only decree of four that was o rebuild Jerusalem, the walls and the streets.

Permission granted to continue building Jerusalem?  Yes.  A decree to rebuild Jerusalem? No.  There is no record of a "decree" in Nehemiah 2:1-9.  Only a letter of permission from the King to resume the construction of Jerusalem.

But we do find a "decree" in Ezra 7, and according to Ezra 9:9, this decree did include repairing the desolations of Jerusalem and the building of the wall.

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color=blue]All the others had to do with rebuilding the temple.  Artaxerxes descree in His 7th year of reign, recorded in Ezra 7:7, does not record a single thing about rebuilding Jerusalem, but rather, the take the temple gold and silver back that Nebuchadnezzar had taken in 586 B.C.[/color]

As I have already shown, the decree did include it according to Ezra 9:9. Nonetheless, even if you were correct, it is a fallacy to conclude that the decree to rebuild Jerusalem must be specified in the single decree given in Ezra 7. As I have iterated before, Futurists pride themselves on taking the Bible literally, and they should therefore take the verses in Isaiah 44:28 and 45:13 literally as well--that Cyrus commanded the building of Jerusalem, not just the temple, according to the infallible Word of God.  You may ask why then the decree did not begin with Cyrus' decree? Simple: Because the decree was a process that Cyrus began, Darius affirmed, and Artaxerxes completed, as indicated by the singular "commandment" in Ezra 6:14.  Darius completed it with the commandment that said: "from the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem" (Daniel 9:25). Cyrus and Darius dealt with the building, and not restoring.

In Isaiah 1:26, Cyrus said he would restore Israel's judges as before, and their counselors like in the beginning.  Artaxerxes completed this the decree foretold by Daniel in 457 B.C, and in 445 B.C. resumed that which he had already decreed in 457.  Ezra 9:9 confirms this. Dispensationalists get very angry when I quote to them Ezra 9:9, because it is a demolishing rebuke to their entire distorted, Jesuit construct of the 70 weeks.  But even if Ezra 9:9 did not exist, Isaiah 44:28 and 45:13 are sufficient to understand the nature of how to understand this "commandment".



The elements in ALL 3 decrees -- of Cyrus, of Darius, and Artaxerxes MEET the specifications for the "commandment" in Daniel 9:25, and Ezra 9:9 is the cherry on top.

This is not even mentioning the mathematical problems we run into if we start in 445 B.C. If we start in 445 B.C., we will run into not only problems that do not meet the Biblical criteria, but the math itself will fail.  We will be forced to multiply 69 weeks x 360 days, which will come out to be 173,880 days.  But as mathematics have already demonstrated, we get 173,883 days between march 14, 445 B.C. and April 6, 32 A.D., not 173,880. Thus the prophecy does not fit.

We must therefore resort to true Jewish solar years, and commence in 457 B.C., end the 69 weeks in 27 A.D., discover Christ's crucifixion 3 ½ years after 27 A.D. in 31 A.D, or in the "midst" of the week", and extended mercy of 3 ½ more years to the Jews by the preaching of the Apostles until 34 A.D. when the Gospel goes out to the Gentiles.

Dispensationalist-Futurists refuse to exercise the perspicacious insight necessary to ascertain the full import of these 3 decrees. They read the commandment in Daniel 9:25 where it says "from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince" without employing any exegesis into discovering what the totality of this commandment" might entail.   One cannot deny that when Artaxerxes in Ezra 7 issued his decree, he gave command to build up and restore Jerusalem's polity and governance, restoring it's judiciary authority, and in 9:9, Ezra confesses that this "included" building a wall in Jerusalem.  This is no doubt that this is part of the "building" of Jerusalem, regardless of how one may try to wiggle around it.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 05:21:12 PM by Lysimachus »

Offline Lysimachus

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Part 2

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I said:
L: From 27 A.D. to 31 A.D. (3 1/2 years) Jesus preached to the Jews.  After crucifying Him, Christ still extended mercy to the nation of Israel for another 3 1/2 more years--as the Disciples went and preached the good news of Jesus Christ.  For 3 1/2 years Christ stretched out His arms toward the national state of Israel, and even sent them the LAST prophet---Stephen.

In 34 A.D., the leaders (Sanhedrin) of National Israel stoned Stephen, the last prophet to death.  This was their final sin as a nation for carrying out the keys of the gospel to the world. God could no longer work with them as a nation.  In 34 A.D., Saul was converted to Paul, Peter received the vision in the net to not call any man (gentiles) unclean, Phillip baptized the Eunuch, and the gospel went forth to the Gentiles. 

It was AFTER the termination of the 70th week that the attention focussed on the Gentiles and the Church.   If there is any time frame for the future tribulation still to come, it's 1260, 1290 and 1335 literal days stated in Daniel 12, if anything.  But there is NO Biblical truth whatsoever for a "7 year tribulation", and a "Third Rebuilt Literal Jewish Temple".   Paul said numerous times that the Church was now the "temple" (naos) of God.  And the Antichrist (the Papal System) has come to "sit down in the temple (the church)" of God, claiming to be God (by claiming to forgive sins, and atone for sin--a direct attack on God's sanctuary in heaven). Every time Paul was referring to a literal temple, he used a different Greek word for "temple".  But every time he was referring to the "Church", he referred it as "naos". And then he employed this SAME Greek word (naos) in 2 Thessalonians 2.

You said:
Q: Which is a complete distortion of the prophetic Scriptural facts!  The 70th and FINAL WEEK [7 years] of God's decree upon the final destiny of Israel in this age is the 7 year tribulation, the Day of the Lord, Jesus taught His disciples about, in Mt.24:4-31.  An amplification of Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week.  Responding to His disciples questions as to what the sign of His return would be and of the END OF THE AGE!

Repeating yourself isn't going to help your case any Quasar. The 70th week of Daniel has nothing to do with the "end-of-the-age". Nothing.   The abomination of desolation most certainly had a local application to the Jews of that time when the idolatrous eagle standards with sunbursts of the Romans were placed outside the walls of Jerusalem, and set up in the holy ground, which extended some furlongs outside the city walls. This was the warning sign that the followers of Christ were to find safety in flight. This was simply a small "foretaste" for the greater abomination of desolation to come in the Dark Ages, with the advancement of the Papacy, and yet again the final Abomination of Desolation when there is union between Church and the State setup, and a National Sunday Law is implemented, forcing all men to observe Sunday instead of the sacred Sabbath of the Lord, and causing all to receive the mark of the beast, otherwise they will not be able to buy or sell.

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Your views are much the same as Preterists, who place all prophecy as historic which is complete heresy!  The 1290 days and the 1335 days refer to events that will take place after the 70th week/7 year tribulation is over, referring to the Holy Festivals of Israel, such as the Feast of Tabernacles.  There will be a new third physical temple as is crystal clear in Dan.9:27 and in 2 Thes.2:4

1. Preterism "happens" to adapt the historic messianic computation of the 70 weeks (70 consecutive weeks), but keeping the 70th week attached to the 69 is not an idea born in Preterism.  Not even Ireneaus mentioned anything about the 70th week being detached from the first 69, although he did imply it.  But Tertulian did not do this.  The Church fathers were not unanimous on this matter.  In fact, ALL Protestants, who were Historicists (NOT Preterists!) were unanimous that the 70 weeks were CONSECUTIVE weeks.  Preterism, like Futurism, literalizes the 1260 days of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 instead of recognizing the Day-For-Year principle given in Ezekiel 4:6 and Numbers 14:34.  Preterism, like Futurism, also applies the Little Horn of Daniel 8 to Antiochus Epiphanies IV.  We Adventists Historicists apply it to Rome, and we recognize the fulfillment of prophecy as CONTINUOUS, recognizing both PAST, PRESENT, and FUTURE.  You Dispensational Futurists do complete injustice to God's word by sawing off the Little Horn off the 4th beast of Daniel 7, and inserting an erroneous, pathetic, 1500 year gap between the 4th Beast (the Pagan Roman Empire) and the Little Horn.  How more ludicrous can you get? Historicists recognize this Little Horn power as realized in the Papacy for 1260 years, from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. when this Antichrist/Beast power finally received the Deadly Wound inflicted by the sword of the State (Napoleon).  This wound is now healing, and there is yet a future application to the second manifestation of the revived beast, and there will be a future tribulation such as never was.   The first part of the great tribulation was for 1260 years.  The second half will be for a short time at the very end of the age.

2. The 1290 and 1335, I believe, may have a dual application.  The first fulfillment was the 1290 which lasted from 508 A.D.(marriage between Church and State--Catholic Church with King Clovis of France) to 1798.  The 1335 lasts from 508 to 1843, when message was proclaimed that the "hour of his judgment is come", for which 1844 followed right after, and was the termination of the 2300 day/year period of Daniel 8:14. A secondary application to the 1290 and 1335 is a yet future application.

You say that the 1290 and 1335 have to do the Holy Festivals of Israel, such as the Feast of Tabernacles?  What?  How can this be when the 1260 is clearly PART of the 1290 and 1335??  The abomination of desolation is setup commencing the 1290! (this began in 508 with the marriage between Church and State under Clovis!). (Dan 12:11) And it is in within this same time frame that the angel says "blessed is he that waited, and cometh to the thousand 1335 days" (vs. 12).  How can this be "after the 70th week"? 

The matter of fact is, Quasar, there IS no yet-future 70th week.  No future tribulation that is allotted "7 years".  We do not know exactly how long the future tribulation will be.  Since 1844, the angel clearly said that "that there should be time no longer" (Revelation 10:6)  Since 1844, at the end of the 2300 year period, of Daniel 8:14, there will be NO MORE TESTS BASED ON PROPHETIC TIME!

3. There is nothing mentioned about a "third temple" in Daniel 9:24-27. The prophecy was specifically to the Jews, and applied to the Second Temple.

4. 2 Thess 2:4 has nothing to do with a literal, rebuilt temple.  This is speaking of the Temple of His Church. His "naos". This passage is realized in the Papacy, as it sets itself in the Church of God, claiming to forgive sins.  The "naos" of God always applies to His Church!

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I said:
L: The Church (ekklesia--which means "congregation") is simply the "body of Christ" (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 4:12).  ALL nations can be grafted into this true seed of Abraham. 

There is no longer a distinction between Jew and Greek. We are now all saved in Christ Jesus.  When Jesus comes back a second time unto salvation (Heb 9:28), we will ALL be treated as equal, and as one body. That middle wall of partition has come "crashing down", making both "one" in Christ Jesus (Eph 2:13-16; 3:4-6).


Quasar said:
Q: The Church is the One Body of Christ in which we are all one with both He and our Father in heaven, recorded in Jn.17:21-22 and in 1 Cor,12:13.  Consisting of Jews and Greeks [People of all language and nations].  The term "church" was transliterated from the Greek ekklesia which refers to all of us who belong to the One Body of Christ.

When Israel finally recognize Jesus as their Messiah, recorded in Zech.12:10, near the end of the 70th week/7 year tribulation, Jn.10:16 and Rom.11:25-26 will be fulfilled.

How does John 10:16 fulfill this? Dispensationalism technically teaches "two folds", not "one fold" as does John 10:16.  God's "fold" simply represents His people, and at the end of time, a great many flock of people who are not part of us will yet join God's people in the last days and take their stand with Him.  It has nothing to do with a separation between Israel and the Church.  Zechariah 12:10 is antitypically applied to the Church at Pentecost, with the outpouring of His Spirit of Grace upon the penitent believers in the upper room. Zechariah 12:10 mirrors Joel 2:28 for which Peter declared was being fulfilled at Pentecost in Acts 2:16 and 17. Joel applied it to literal Israel (Joel 2:27), and Peter took it and applied it to Pentecost and the Church (Acts 2:16, 17).  Likewise, consistent interpretation requires we apply this same principle to Zechariah 12;10.

Romans 11:25-26 unambiguously declares that the fullness of the Gentiles will come in. Come into what? Into the House of Israel.  So this makes it so that the House of Israel is composed of who?  Of Gentiles!  Therefore, it represents His Church!  There will be only ONE fold--one tree. Not two.  Not Israel and the Church, but ONE flock.  In THIS MANNER, all Israel will be saved.  By the filling up of the Gentiles!  Therefore, it must be Spiritual Israel, as literal Israel only consists of literal Jews.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 01:48:19 PM by Lysimachus »

Offline Lysimachus

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Part 3

Quote by Lysimachus:

1. That would be partially correct. Except I believe the ultimate Antichrist will be Lucifer himself when he is crowned Pope, masquerading as an angelic, Christ-like being.

2. There may very well be a third temple in Jerusalem, but that's not the temple Paul is talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, nor will Palestine be the focal point of Bible prophecy. It may be implicated in world-events, but it won't be the center-piece as portrayed to us by popular teachers such as Hal Lindsey, Thomas Ice, Pat Robertson, Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins, John Haggee, Perry Stone, Chuck Missler, etc. etc.  As sincere as these men may be, they are sincerely deceived and being used as pawns by the enemy to voice false prophecies (the embodiment of the false prophet). If there is a third-temple rebuilt in Jerusalem, that will be nothing more than the Devil's counterfeit prophecy, making people think that is where the big events will transpire.

3. The reality is, the "temple" being spoken about in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is not a literal temple.  It is the Church. Whenever Paul is referring to a literal temple building in his other writings, he uses the Greek words "Eidoleion" (1 Cor 8:10) and "Hieron" (Acts 26:21; 1 Cor 9:13).  But whenever he is referring to the Spiritual Temple of the Church, such as in 1 Cor 3:16,17; 6:19; 2 Cor 6:16; Ephesians 2:21, guess which Greek word he uses?  He uses the Greek word "NAOS!"

Guess which Greek word he used in 2 Thessalonians 2:4?

You got it, NAOS!

He's talking about an Anti-Christian power that would SIT in God's Church claiming to be God through the forgiveness of Sins.  It is talking about a spiritual temple here, and the Pope and the entire Papal System fits this criteria to an exact T!.

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Response by Quasar:
Q: 1. Which reveals your complete lack of eschatological understanding!  According to Rev.13:1-9, the dragon, who is Satan, will give his throne, power and great authority to the beast out of the sea, who is the antichrist!

And what does the sea symbolize? According to Revelation 17:15, waters represent "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues". This beast, therefore, arose out of a populated area.  Europe is very populated, and the Seat of Rome is in the center of such populated territory.  You can cross-reference this with Isaiah 8:7 where waters are compared to many people. In Isaiah 17:12, 13, the noise of many people is depicted as the noise of the seas, and the rushing nations like the rushing of mighty waters. In Jeremiah 51:42, the "sea" is used to illustrate the enemies that come up against Babylon. This is juxtaposed to the Lamb-Like Beast in Revelation 13:11 coming up out of the "earth", which represents a depopulated country.  We believe this to represent the United States of America, where hardly any civilization was found to be in existence.

Daniel 7:23 states that beasts represent "kingdoms". Not single individuals. It is sheer nonsense and inconsistent to attribute the Lamb-Like Beast coming up out of the earth and the Sea Beast of Revelation 13 as individual men, when the sacred Declarations clearly give us the rules of prophetic interpretation. Beasts represent KINGDOMS.

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2. More eschatological guesswork and bearing false witness against qualified and degreed theologian expositors, placing your own non-Scriptural fiction above their superior knowledge and knowledge of eschatology.

My conclusions are based on the decades of work by not only qualified and degreed theologians of the present age who have categorically refuted, dismantled, and made minced meat out of dispensational eschatology, but also are the conclusions built on the foundations laid by ALL our Protestant Reformers, for which you categorically reject in favor of Jesuit inspired theology.  Some of the most learned Jesuit Doctors, such as Francisco Ribera, Robert Bellarmine, and Manuel de Lacunza in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries laid the foundations for your beliefs.

Which foundation do you choose to stand on?  I don't know about you, but I reject the Jesuit Doctors in favor of our Protestant Reformers any day.  I stand on the Historicist principles of our Protestant Reformers--men whose minds were illuminated and unanimous in their vote of identifying the REAL Antichrist of Bible prophecy, and not the fictitious one of Jesuit Futurism.

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Attempting to rework the Scriptures from your studies of the Greek, was done long before you were ever thought of by experts.  Which has long been the guidelines we received from the experts who translated our Bibles into English for us.  Present attempts to use that as any argument for your views is completely invalid.

If your experts can refute the faulty mathematical numbers that Adventist theologians have so thoroughly dismantled, then do your duty and present what we have dealt with to them.  Thus far, Dispensational theologians have made feeble efforts to counter Adventist theologians. Here is an example: What dispensational theologian has countered the exegetical works of Professor Brempong Osusu-Antwi in his 300+ page book, The Chronology of Daniel 9:24-27? I challenge you to read this book.

All of these men are qualified and expert in Hebrew and Greek.

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For the events pertaining to the battle of Armageddon Jesus will lead both His angels and all of us who belong to Him, in our glorified indestructable bodies, against the two beasts, the antichrist and the false prophet and the ten horns/nations allied to them, in Judiah and surrounding Jerusalem.  See all of Zech.14, and don't miss verses 4-5 where Jesus returns in His second coming to the Mount of Olives with all of His saints/Church, and angels, recorded in Mt.24:31.  Also in Rev.19:14 through 20.  The parenthetic disasterous results are seen in Rev.14:14-20.

Since this subject of "Armageddon" that you raise is too broad in scope to deal with, I will leave you with the following article which effectively refutes any connection between ancient Israel and a "literal" battle of Armageddon: Israel and Armageddon: Fact vs. Fiction. Once again, you are appealing to the fallacy of grotesque literalism.

As for Zechariah 14, I have already repeated a number of times that this event has nothing to do with the Second Coming.  When Christ comes back with His Church to set on the Mount of Olives, this is not the Second Coming, rather, a Third Coming to hold the final judgment of the wicked. These wicked will, who were all dead during the 1000 years (the rest of the dead), will be resurrected to face the Great White Throne Judgment, and then to be punished with the "second death"in the Lake of Fire.  This judgment occurs before the New Jerusalem, which sits atop the Mount of Olives. John the Revelator reapplies and redefines this battle with the nations, and applies it to the end of the millennium in Revelation 20.

Matthew 24:31 mentions nothing about Church saints. Only angels gathering the "elect", for which Paul defines the "elect" as the Church in Colossians 3:12, and Peter defines the "elect" as the Church in Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:2 and 2:6.  Matthew 24:31, like Mark 13:27, is describing the gathering up of the Church into the clouds of heaven at the Second Coming. This IS when the "catching up" into the clouds occurs in 1 Thess 4:13-17.

Notice that in Revelation 19:17,18, the fowls are filled with flesh of "ALL MEN", not just some men. This leaves the earth depopulated after the Second Coming during the millennium. This also indirectly refutes your argument that there are wicked people to convert through any priesthood during the millennium.

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The beast/antichrist will not be the Pope!  He was already dead at the time Jesus dictated Revelation to John in Rev.17:8 and 11.  Notice that at that time, "now is not."  He will not be brought out of the Abyss until he appears in Dan.9:27 as all three of the "he's" in that verse. [Seen also in Dan.7; 8 and 11 also].

Your statement here entails so much, that I do not even know where to begin.  It would take several books to delve into the theological issues concerning the 7 heads of the beast.  I would recommend that before you begin attempting to try and disqualifying the Papal System as that of the Beast, that you first take out time to study the numerous theological books that have been written by Adventists concerning the 7 headed beast of Revelation 17.

As we find the phrase "one is" with the heads (Rev 17:10), so we find the expression "is not" with the beast in 17:8, 10, and 11. The beast was, is not, will come out of the abyss and goes to destruction. The beast is described similarly three times in Rev 17:8 and 11:

(1) It was - AND IS NOT - and is about to come up out of the abyss - AND GOES TO DESTRUCTION

(2) It was - AND IS NOT - and will come.

(3) It was - AND IS NOT - and is an eight and is of the seven. - AND GOES TO DESTRUCTION

As "one is" (head) relates to John's time either in the first century or at a later time in vision, the phrase "is not" (beast) could also relate to John and therefore to history. Is such a conclusion warranted? We do not think so!

(1) Although both phrases us the present tense, it is hardly conceivable that at the time the beast "is not" and one of its heads "is".

(2) The beast is not identified. Statements related to the beast portray it from an end time perspective and point to its future judgment. Therefore, the phrase "is not" does not necessarily connect this period to John's time.

(3) The "is not" phase can be understood as a future development, because the present tense oftentimes stands for the future (see e.g., Rev 17:11-13; 16:15). Furthermore, the phrase "it goes to destruction" in the same sentence is also used in the present tense, although it will be the end of the beast. That the beast is not identified and that the heads are singled out may point to the fact that the beast should be understood mainly from a future perspective, whereas the heads contain the clue to unlock the understanding of Rev 17.

(4) The second part of Rev 17:8 seems to connect the "is not/will be" phases of the beast to the earth dwellers. However, this is a future development only, most probably related to the very last hours of this world [they will be astonished--future tense (Rev 17:8 )].

(5) How does the Book of Revelation interpret the beast's future coming up out of the abyss? Answer: It describes it in Rev 20 as Satan's release from the abyss prison. In other words the phrase dealing with the beast coming up out of the abyss and its subsequent destruction depicts events that follow the millennium. Then the phrase "is not" should be understood as the time during the millennium.  The first phase, describing the beast as "it was" refers to historical time and ends with the beginning of the  millennium. It is the time which points to Satan's activity during the human history until Christ's Second Coming. The heads would basically fall into this time, whereas the horns seem to come on the scene at the very end of time only. However, John's special focus is on the judgment and thus on events taking place in conjunction with and after Christ's Second Coming.

Without getting into any in-depth theological dissecting, I will briefly state that we as Adventist Historicists believe the 7 heads on the beast represent world kingdoms throughout history.

When John wrote the book of Revelation, the 5 that are fallen would be thus:

Five are fallen:
(1) Egypt, (2) Assyria, (3) Babylon, (4) Medo-Persia, (5) Greece

One is:
(6) Pagan Rome (under the Caesars)

Not yet come:
(7) Papal Rome (under the Popes)

There are also several other interpretations that can be applicable to Revelation 17:8 and 11.

Rev 17:8 says "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

The following is another interpretation:

Beast that was -- Papal sovereignty and persecution -- 1260 years (538-1798)

Is Not -- Papal sovereignty lost (1798-1929)

And Yet Is -- Papal sovereignty restored (1929 - ?)

The "present tense" means absolutely nothing Quasar, as the phrase "Yet Is", which comes after "Is Not" is also present tense too!

The "Is Not" present tense does not necessarily mean that this can represent only in the time John was writing. The "is not" present tense can be understood from the point in prophetic time the angel is addressing.

Not even your dispensational brethren are all agreed on the nature of the beast of Revelation 17.

You might be wise to evaluate the following interpretations from an Adventist Historicist perspective before you pretend there is only one way to interpret this Beast:

http://www.biblelight.net/satan.htm

Sometimes there can be dual, triple, if not quadruple applications to certain prophetic symbols!

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3. The temple referred to in Dan.9:27 and in 2 Thes.2:4 is a new third temple yet to be built.  If that does not satisfy you, do a Google search with Messianic sites pertaining to a new temple.

I am more than familiar with the Jesuit Illuminati plans to have Pseudo-Israel rebuild a Third Temple in Jerusalem.  If they do get to constructing such a temple, it will not be a fulfillment of true prophecy, but a COUNTERFEIT prophecy created by the Devil to distract the minds of the people away from the TRUE prophecy--that being Rome and the United States.  Not the Middle East.  Rebuilding such a Temple would be an INSULT Jehovah, and worse yet, re-instituting sacrifices which were FINISHED at the Cross!  Christ WAS the ultimate sacrifice. Our minds are now to be directed at the Atoning work of our Saviour and High Priest in the Heavenly Temple, NOT the earthly Temple.  To focus on an earthly temple is to focus on a kingdom of this world. And Jesus unequivocally stated "My kingdom is NOT of this world" (John 18:36), and He said it does "NOT come with observation" (Luke 17:20).  To direct our minds to the Middle East for an earthly temple is carnal, earthly, and worldly thinking.

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The false world religion is the RCC which the beast/antichrist and ten horns/nations allied to him hate, and will destroy.  Then there will be a one world religion as described in Rev.13:14-15, everyone must worship the image of the beast/antichrist or be killed!

The horns that come up in the latter time are political powers no doubt, but the Beast and the Harlot are essentially the same.  Revelation 17 pictures a Harlot Woman riding a beast to help the student of God's word visualize the concept that the Church is controlling the State, and the State is supporting her religious agendas.  But they are all one unified Antichrist force, headed by the Papacy, with the POPE at its head.  The Papal System is the predicted Antichrist of Bible prophecy, and ALL our Reformers of old were unanimous on this!

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Your allegorical spiritualizing eschatology is completely off the wall, the the new temple is the Church!  It is no such thing, as the Scriptures clearly reveal.

You accuse me of spiritualizing away eschatology.  But then when I explain my eschatological construct to Preterists or Amillennialists, they tell me the exact opposite.  That I'm "literalizing away" the scriptures.  If they are telling me I am literalizing it, and you're telling me I'm spiritualizing it, then that tells me that I just may be looking at this whole thing from a more balanced perspective.

I LITERALLY apply symbols where they belong! What is symbolic always stands for something that is literally true.  And the Beast LITERALLY represents the Papacy.  The Little Horn of Daniel 7 and 8, the Beast of Revelation 13 and 17, the Harlot Woman of Revelation 17, the Man of Sin and Son of Perdition of 2 Thess 2 are ALL speaking of the same apostate system!  But all from different angles to help conceptualize various components and characteristics of the same entity.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 01:55:54 PM by Lysimachus »

Offline Lysimachus

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Part 4

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1. There is no science fiction from the epistles of Paul to the Thessalonians that I quoted, except for the fuzzy logic you attempt to put into it!  Parousia does not mean coming!  It means THE PRESENCE OF, as well as coming, which will take place first at the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, when we will be CAUGHT UP to meet Jesus in the clouds of the sky, and the second time at His second coming of to the earth 7 years later, with all of us He raptured 7 years before!

According to Strong's #3952, the following definition is given for "Parousia":

"1. presence
2. the coming, arrival, advent
a. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and setup formally and gloriously the kingdom of God"


It sounds to me as though you are limiting the meaning of the word "presence" to fit your paradigm. 

But let's assume for a moment that the definition only means "presence" as you say.

Question: What happens at the "presence of the Lord"?

Answer:

"(23) I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. (24) I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. (25) I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. (26) I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the PRESENCE of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. (27) For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. (28) For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it." (Jeremiah 4:24-28)

To somehow imagine that the "parousia" of 1 Thess 4:15-18 is different than the "parousia" of Matthew 24:30,31 and Mark 13:26,27 is to simply stretch the scriptures beyond credulity.  TOO MANY additive inductions and juggling with phrases must be accomplished in order to extract any pre-tribulation rapture out of this!

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We will be CAUGHT UP to meet Jesus in the clouds of the sky, in 1 Thes.4:17.  From there, He will take us to our Father in heaven so we can be with Him, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28!  Confirmed by Paul in 1 Thes.4:15, when he wrote: "According to the Lord's own word..." and goes on to amplify what Jesus taught us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28, about the pre-trib rapture of the Church in 1 Thes.4:16-17!

I agree with ALL of this.  I agree that we will all be caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds of the sky, and we will go to heaven's mansions prepared for us according to John 14:2-4 and 28.  However, at the same time we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, the wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming! All you have to do is continue reading past 1 Thess 4:15-17, and move on into chapter 5 verses 2 and 3 where it says the wicked will receive "sudden destruction", and shall "not escape".  The saints that are caught up to meet the Lord in the air will remain in heaven for 1000 years, NOT 7 years.  There are no second chances!  The cases of ALL the righteous and ALL the wicked have been decided (Rev. 22:11,12). No conversions swill take place after the Second Coming (which is the same as the Rapture).   Further proof that the wicked are destroyed at His brightness at the Rapture/Second Coming is in 2 Thess 2:8.  Remember, verse 1 of this same chapter, Paul categorizes the "gathering together unto him" with the "coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess 2:1).  And that SAME "day" of Christ will not come until the Man of Sin, that Son of Perdition is revealed FIRST! (vs. 2-3).  Any 6th grader can read this and understand this.  But Dispensationalists have to JUGGLE these verses to try and make them fit their convoluted eschatological construct.

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2. Show me one shred of Scriptural evidence to support your guesswork that Jesus is going to take us to any mansions at His second coming!  Paul alluded to Jesus own word, from 1 Thes.4:15, referring to when all of us who belong to Christ will be CAUGHT UP to meet Him in the clouds of the sky, in vs 17, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven.  None of the Scriptures referring to Jesus second coming say a single thing about His turning around, from the Mount of Olives in Zech.14:5, to take anyone back to our Father in heaven!

I have already provided you plenty of Scriptural evidence! The "gathering" of God's people in 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Thess 2:1 is the VERY same "gathering" in Matthew 24:30,31 and Mark 13:26,27.  In ALL instances, the saints are gathered UP into the sky, AWAY from the earth as Jesus RECEIVES us UNTO Himself!

I have already shown to you that Zechariah 14:5 has nothing to do with the Second Coming.  Zechariah 14 meets it's literal antitypical fulfillment by John reallocating this old testament typology to the END Of the millennium in Revelation 20. That "beloved city" in Revelation 20:9 is the same as the "New Jerusalem" that came down out of heaven in 3:12; 21:2 and 21:10.  [Keep note that Revelation is not written in chronological order].  That TIME when the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven in Revelation is the SAME event being described in Zechariah 14:5!

1. This is why "all the saints" come with Christ in Zechariah 14:5, because they have already been in heaven for 1000 years, and now it is the end of the millennium.  They are not coming back to save any righteous. They are coming back to hold the last judgment of the wicked, and commit them to the Lake of Fire.

2. This is why the Mount of Olives "cleaves" into a great plain!  So that the New Jerusalem, that Beloved City, can settle down on it!!  This is that City that Satan marshals up all the wicked forces against.  These wicked forces were all resurrected at the end of the millennium to face the judgment.  Satan goes out to deceive, or convince the wicked that they have a chance against this City.

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Both of letters to the Thessalonians, in 1 Thes.4:13-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8 are about the pre-trib rapture of the Church and have nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Chrisr, when He will bring all of us with Him when He comes, in His armies from heaven, in Rev.19:14, where we will be seen riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean!  ["Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints/Church." Rev.19:8  NIV].
The mansions Jesus went to prepare for us in Jn.14:2-3 will not be activated until after the present heaven and earth pass away [Destroyed by fire, in 2 Pet.3:7] and God provides us with a new heaven and earth recorded in Rev.21:1-5.

I have already repeated myself more than once.  The term "saints" can just as easily mean angels. I've given you sound scriptural evidence of this.  And even if they do represent redeemed saints, they could just as easily apply to those who went to heaven with Christ at His resurrection, when Christ lead captivity captive, and took the captives home with Him.  As Christ arose, He brought from the grave a multitude of captives. The earthquake at His death had rent open their graves, and when He arose, they came forth with Him. They were those who had been co-laborers with God, and who at the cost of their lives had borne testimony to the truth. Now they were to be witnesses for Him who had raised them from the dead. After Christ came up from the Resurrection, what did He do? He grasped His power and held His scepter. He opened the graves and brought up the multitude of captives, testifying to everyone in our world and in creation that He had the power over death and that He rescued the captives of death. See Matthew 27:52,53 -- these were the same captives of death that Christ lead to heaven (see Psalms 68:18; Ephesians 4:8 ).  These saints that rose from their graves and went to heaven will most likely come back with Jesus at His Second Coming.  Therefore, we see how we do not need a Pretribulation Rapture for saints to return with Christ! There are a bunch of them in heaven already! With their new immortal bodies!!! Matthew 27:52 says "And the GRAVES were opened, and many BODIES of the saints which slept arose."

Which part of this do you not understand Quasar?

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3. This part of your claims reveals how little you understand Biblical prophecy.  Jer.4:23-28 is a part of God's revelation to Jeremiah what is going to happen to Israel if they don't repent and come back to Him, preceding the invasion by Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians who destroyed Judah and Jerusalem along with Solomon's temple.  It has nothing whatever to do with eschatology!

In this comment, you are addressing my quote of Jeremiah 4:24-28. You are limiting the application of this passage exclusively to Jeremiah's time period.  You are failing to forget that Jeremiah 4:24-28 is employing the same language of Genesis 1:1,2 where the earth is "without form", and "void". You are also neglecting that Jeremiah 4:26, not just Jerusalem would be destroyed, but ALL the cities would be destroyed by His presence and fierce anger! Although this prophecy has a local application, it also points forward antitypically to the great day of God Almighty.  Zephaniah 1:2,3 also speak this same language, declaring how men, beast, fowls, fishes, and EVERYTHING will be consumed off the land.  Verse 14 puts it in context of "the great day of the Lord". Just like Zephaniah 1:2,3 has a local Palestinian setting yet can be applied to the great "day of the Lord", so likewise, Jeremiah 4:24-28 has deep antitypical meaning foreshadowing the great day of God. 

We see the words of Jeremiah 4:24-28 realized in Revelation 6:14 where "every mountain and island" is "moved out of their places", and in 19:18 where the fowls are filled with the "flesh of ALL men", and "every island fled away, and the mountains were not found" (16:19) and those left behind are left dead where the eagles are gathered (Luke 17:34-37).  Then we have Satan trapped in the "abussos"(bottomless pit--or "abyss") in Revelation 20, which is the same Greek word used in the Greek translation of the Old Testament (Septuagint) for describing the earth in its condition in Genesis 1:2.  "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the [abussos]." (Genesis 1:2, LXX).  The Greek word "abussos" here is translated from the Hebrew word "tehom".  This shows us why the word "abyss" is the perfect description of this earth when Satan is bound to it. It is utterly destroyed and EMPTY! The earth is in a primordial condition of endless chaos, destruction, and darkness.

- Earth has "no man", has "none inhabitant", is "void", has "no form", is "utterly broken down", is a "wilderness", "heavens have no light", is "clean dissolved", is "utterly emptied", "utterly spoiled", the Lord "maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste", "ALL the earth shall be devoured" and the land is made "desolate" (Please read: Isaiah 24:17-22; Jer 4:23-28; Isaiah 24:1-4; Isaiah 14:12-21; Isaiah 13:9-13; Isaiah 6:8-11; Isaiah 28:21,22; Isaiah 34:1-15; Jer 25:32-38; Zeph 1:2,3; 3:6-8), and the wicked are all dead, and lie in wait in the grave (Hosea 7:6,7)

I've got gigantic news Quasar.  The Dispensational world, and all its kin who look forward to an earthly, temporal millennium, are going to be in for a rude awakening. This earth is going to destroyed into a desolate wilderness!  Satan will be the scapegoat [azazel = "fallen angel"] lead into the wilderness by the fit man (God's last-day people), and while the saints are reigning in heaven, the scapegoat, which is Satan, will be left on the desolate planet! 

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4. Reference to Isa.24 is the exact same thing in Dan.9:27; Mt.24:4-31; Mk.13:5-27; Lk.21:8-28 and in Rev.6:1-17; they are all about the Day of the Lord, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel, the seven year tribulation, which you deny will take place!  When it comes to interpreting the prophetic/eschatological Scriptures, it's time for you to sit down and leave them to those who are qualified to do so!

They are definitely referring to the Day of the Lord (besides Dan 9:27), but they aren't referring to an 70th week.  There is no "allotted 7 year tribulation" spoken of in Scripture, anywhere. It is mythology based on Jesuit Futurism. It is an ideology that is intrinsically tied to the Zionistic, New World Order plot, to deceive the masses and prevent them from ascertaining the REAL Antichrist that has been right smack in front of their noses ever since the days of Paul; the Roman Papacy!   Isaiah 24 without question alludes to times when the earth will be "clean dissolved"and "utterly emptied".  You cannot have a "clean dissolved" and "utterly emptied" earth with some people always on it.  There has to be a time slot, somewhere, where there are NO inhabitants on it.  We as Adventists know where this time slot of an emptied earth exists. It belongs during the Millennium!   And it will come as a complete shock to the fallen Protestant Christian world!  The ones who will form an IMAGE to the Beast.  The False Prophet.

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The saints/Church will indeed be raptured before the 7 year tribulation begins and be with Jesus and our Father in heaven, according to Jn.14:2-3 and 28; 1 Thes.4:13-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8.  However, there will be millions who will be brought to the Lord during the 7 year tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists God will place on the earth, in Rev.7:1-8, to replace the raptured Church, at that time.  The Great Multitude of Rev.7:9-17 are the results of their efforts, and the very same martyrs who will participate in the first resurrection in Rev.20:4 and 6.  Who paid with their lives to believe in Jesus during the 7 year tribulation.  They are called the tribulation saints and do not belong to the Church

The 144,000 are Church Saints, prior to the Second Coming (aka Rapture).  I'm not gong to go into a long study on this now.  I'm tired.  I've had enough.  I totally reject and am weary of the literalism being employed on Revelation by Dispensational Futurists. The 144,000 are a symbolic group who are true Jews at heart, and who have no guile in their mouths.  It is absolutely impossible to locate the lost 12 tribes of Israel. They are completely intermarried with one another, and have lost their pure ethnic identity. If you want to learn more about my view of the 144,00, you are free to read this little booklet entitled: Who Will Sing The Song? - Understanding the 144,000
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 12:06:35 PM by Lysimachus »

Offline Lysimachus

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Part 5

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That the saints/Church return with Jesus at His second advent to the earth, following Him,  in His armies from heaven, in Rev.19:14 and Zech.14:4-5, has previously been addressed.  With reference to Isa.24:19-22 is about the Great White throne judgement just preceding the destruction of the present heavens and earth, in Rev.20:11-15.  At that time and place, the only ones left will be the uncountable billions who have been reconciled to God by Jesus Christ, and are in heaven, until the new heaven and earth is provided by God in Rev.21:1.  This does not take place until after Jesus 1,000 year reign on earth is over.  All those who will participate in the first resurrection will be made priests of God and of Christ and rule wit Him for 1,000 years, according to Rev.20.4 and 6.  They will bring millions more to the Lord during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

I have already proven how being priests does not mean converting people.  The term priest is a symbol of purity and undefiled character.  I have repeated myself enough times.

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5. Your views here are again straight of the walls of la la land!  Satan will be chained and locked up in the Abyss, concurrent with Jesus Millennial reign here on the earth.  The population of the earth will be but one third from what it was in the beginning of the 7 year tribuation, according to Zech.13:8.  For example, if there will be 7 billion people alive at the beginning of the 7 year tribulation, there will only be 2.333 billion left at the end of it.

Your literalistic view of Satan being chained inside an endless pit finds its origins in fantasia land.  I've got news. Gigantic news.  This EARTH will be the "PIT".  Isaiah 14:15 talks about how Satan was brought down to the "sides of the pit". This destroyed, dark, abysmal planet (results of the Second Coming, and the catching up of the saints into heaven) will be the "PIT" (abussos). What binds Satan is 1. He will be trapped on this dark planet, and can not go anywhere else in the universe. 2. He will not be able to tempt, deceive, or manipulate anyone, because ALL the wicked will be dead, with their bones and carcasses all around him.  Saying he is in a literal pit or put in literal chains stretches literalism beyond credulity. 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6 both say that the fallen angels are currently in "chains of darkness"up until the day of judgment.  Yet if they are literally in chains of darkness, how are they "going forth" deceiving nations? Why are the tempting and manipulating people today if they are in literal chains of darkness?  It's because these terms are to be interpreted SYMBOLICALLY!

Satan is NOT in a literal pit, nor is he in literal chains.  If the chain is symbolic, SO IS THE PIT! STAY CONSISTENT! This pit is the desolated earth! 

What looses Satan?

When after the Beloved City comes down from heaven, and ALL the wicked (that died prior or during the Second Advent) are resurrected in the "Second Resurrection" to face the "Second Death".  These are the nations Satan goes out to deceive!  The resurrected nations!  The same as the "rest of the dead that lived not again until the thousand years were finished" in Revelation 20:5!

Now Satan is loosed form His prison (this destroyed earth), because now he has people to tempt and deceive again!

According to Zechariah 13:8,9, John shows how this prophecy will be fulfilled in the Church in Revelation 3:18. Not all the local types will be repeated, but they will be fulfilled in principle, not every detail.  Antitypes are never identical to types.

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Show me anywhere in the Scriptures that support your guesswork that the one body of Christ will be spending 1,000 years in the mansions Jesus has been prparing for us.  Especially since they won't be available until the new heaven and earth has come and the present heaven and earth is gone.

All the saints will be present with Jesus, right here on earth, during His 1,000 year reign.  After that, Satan will be set free, rebell against God and establish an army the size of the sands of the sea.  They will come against the saints around Jerusalem and God will destroy the army with fire and sulfur from heaven and throw Satan into the lake of fire, to be tormented forever.

I could turn the question right on you.  Show me one place in the entire scriptures that support your guesswork that the one body of Christ will be spending 1,000 years on the earth! You will not find one verse where it says that the millennial will be ON EARTH!  Not ONE!  All references to an earthly reign are AFTER the millennium, after Christ comes back with all His saints with the New Jerusalem, and makes a new heaven and a new earth!

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The wicked who were in Hell will still be there during Jesus 1,000 year reign, and those who will be wicked during that period will join them until the Great White throne judgement, at the end of Jesus 1,000 year reign here on earth.  All those who participate in the second resurrection will fulfill Dan.12:2 and Mt.25:46.  If you are among the Godless and wicked still alive at the Great White throne judgement, you will die both deathes simultaneously, when thrown into the lake of fire, according to Rev.20:15.

Agree that the godless participate in the Second Resurrection. But the godless will not be in hell-fire during the millennium.  They will be dead.  I do not believe in the dichotomization of the soul and body.  The Greek word for hell in all instances of a present tense is "hades".  The Greek word "hades" means "GRAVE".  They are dead in their graves.  But they will resurrect to be thrown into the Lake of Fire in bodily form (see Matthew 18:8,9). Disembodies souls do not go to heaven or to hell. When a person dies, they cease to exist. 

It is beyond human comprehension how a just God can reserve the wicked in a burning pit with liquid flames in hell before and during the millennium, only to be resurrected in the second resurrection at the end of the millennium in bodily form and then get thrown right back into hell again! The Lake of Fire!  That makes absolutely no sense!

No. There is only one hell-fire, and that is at the END OF THE AGE! (see Matthew 13:39-42, 49,50).

The first death are those who die prior to Christ's Second Coming or during. The Second Death occurs for those who were lost, and will resurrect at the end of the millennium.  But during the millennium, there are no humans on the planet.

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6. More guesswork!  Jesus Millennial reign here on the earth, is God's "seventh day of rest for all of His people," according to Heb.4:1-11.  The earth will by no means be in a complete state of destruction.  Given 1,000 years to rebuild what was destroyed is certainly sufficient time to do so with a great majority of it left to be enjoyed by all those who participate.

Where in Scriptures does it say we will be rebuilding during the millennium?  Why rebuild when there is the New Jerusalem and Christ has already prepared mansions for us by that time?  That makes no sense. Why waste our times trying to cope with a desolated earth when we could just spend eternity inside the New Jerusalem?  Why would God allow His Church saints to dwell in the New Jerusalem for only 7 years, only to force them back on this mostly desolated earth and then make them rebuild in an atmosphere before the Earth is Made New?  That makes absolutely no sense Quasar!!  The Millennial Sabbath Rest will be in the HEAVENLY Canaan! Not earthly!  (See Hebrews 11:8-16).

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Show me anywhere in the Bible where you find support for a alleged third coming at the end of Jesus 1,000 year reign here on the earth.  [His reign will never end, but it will continue forever on the new heaven and earth].  The millions of priests out of the first resurrection, ruling with Jesus for 1,000 years will bring millions more to their salvation during that time!

You accuse me of having a "third coming", which I find interesting, for you yourself subscribe to a "Third Coming" scenario. 

Notice your scenario:

1. First Coming (Bethlehem)

2. Pre-Tribulation Rapture (a "coming")

3. Second Coming (actually, you should call it a "Third Coming")

What you really have here are three comings.  But you conceal it by not calling the pre-tribulation rapture the "Second Coming".   You have the First Coming in Bethlehem, a second coming for the Church Saints, and a Third Coming (what you call "Second Coming") for the rest of the world.  Basically, in order to try to fulfill both promises (that Christ will take us to His mansions prepared in heaven, yet come and reign here on the earth), you are forced to "split" the Second Coming into 2 comings!  This is ridiculous!

This "Third Coming" I speak of, Quasar, is not really a "Third Coming" at all.  It is just a return to the earth to hold the last judgment of the wicked. They were already condemned.  There is no "second chance" in this scenario. Yours has a "second chance". Ours does not.  It is not a coming for salvation.  It is a return to the earth.

You ask me for "proof"of a so called "third coming".  So here you have it:

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12)

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Revelation 21:2)

"And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God." (Revelation 21:10)

According to the above verses, the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven. 

1. This does not occur at the Second Coming.  This is a Post-Millennial event.

2. There is a "great and high mountain" involved.

But there is more:

"Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee." (Zechariah 14:3,4)

1. This is when the Lord will do battle with all those nations. This is that same battle when the wicked surround the "Beloved City", which is the same as the New Jerusalem that came down out of heaven, and fires comes down out of heaven.

2.. This is also the same time when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.  The mount of Olives cleaves into a great plain so that the New Jerusalem can settle down on this massive plain!  This Mountain that John was carried away to is that mountain which the New Jerusalem will settle on!

But how do we know that the New Jerusalem will be settled on this mountain?  Paul alluded to this future fact in a present figurative sense:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect." (Hebrews 12:22,23)

We also have another allusion to a post-millennial event (not to be confused with Post-MillenniaLISM--I am pre-millennial! The Second Coming happens at the beginning of the Millennium, for salvation!). The following event is not for salvation, but to execute judgment upon ALL the ungodly:

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,  To execute judgment upon all, and to convince ALL that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." (Jude 1:14,15)

Question: When are ALL the ungodly convinced of their ungodly deeds? And WHEN are all the ungodly executed?

Answer: When the books are opened in Revelation 20 before the Great White Throne Judgment, and when they are thrown into the Lake of Fire to face the "Second Death".

Therefore, we have several allusions to a post-millennial coming--a coming only for the judgment of all the ungodly and to execute them and convince them of their ungodly deeds.  The wicked will only be convinced of their ungodly deeds once the records of their sins are revealed to them when the "books are opened" (Rev 20:12-15).  These events do not transpire at the Second Coming. The Second Coming is for the Righteous, the Third Coming, a postmillennial event, is for the judgment of the ungodly.

Thus we see how through the Holy Spirit, John was able to lift out many Old Testament prophecies from their local-Palestinian typological settings, and redefine and reallocate them in his Revelation, in a spiritual, global-world-wide, antitypical setting.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 01:57:15 PM by Lysimachus »

Baptist-boy

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Poppy-cock!  Pre Millennialism dates back to the early fathers and pre tribulation rapture to second century.  What I don't like about reformationists is there lack of understanding regarding reformed theology.  It is one brand or another of  Augustinian theology.  Luther was augustinian, Calvin also.  I believe Augustine to be a heretic who captured the churches imagination for a thousand years.  Luther took off his robes and rejected the Hocus Pocus  transubstantion and continued to in the catholic tradition.  Calvin followed the same course. And they happily killed anabaptists and disenfranchised jews.  So what was new?  A reform only in apparel?

I have greater issues with the Augustinian Doctrine of Election than I do with any off brand teaching of millennialism because the heresy of election is at the core of the means of salvation while millennialism is not.  Yes, my child you can know you are saved.  You do not have to hole and guess.

Offline Lysimachus

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Poppy-cock!  Pre Millennialism dates back to the early fathers and pre tribulation rapture to second century.  What I don't like about reformationists is there lack of understanding regarding reformed theology.  It is one brand or another of  Augustinian theology.  Luther was augustinian, Calvin also.  I believe Augustine to be a heretic who captured the churches imagination for a thousand years.  Luther took off his robes and rejected the Hocus Pocus  transubstantion and continued to in the catholic tradition.  Calvin followed the same course. And they happily killed anabaptists and disenfranchised jews.  So what was new?  A reform only in apparel?

I have greater issues with the Augustinian Doctrine of Election than I do with any off brand teaching of millennialism because the heresy of election is at the core of the means of salvation while millennialism is not.  Yes, my child you can know you are saved.  You do not have to hole and guess.

I am premillennial in my eschatological beliefs, so I'm not sure what your point of all this is.  I am refuting futurism here, and vindicating historicism.  And I'm not speaking down on premillennialism, rather, Dispensational Premillennnialism.  Numerous historicists of the past were "Historic Premillennialists". Yes, Luther and many other reformers were Amillennialists like Augustine, but the Historicist side of Luther had nothing to do with the Amillennialist side of Augustine.  And no, a pre-tribulation rapture cannot be dated to the second century.  The only such evidence is a strange statement that came from Pseudo-Ephraem, which is been thoroughly debunked in this paper:
http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/8/10/162516/Bible%20Prophecy/Pseudo-Ephraem.pdf

Also, my historicist undersandings have nothing to do with Augustine, nor are they even remotely affiliated with Calvin's doctrines of predestination.

Historicism dates back to the early church fathers who applied the day-year principle to the 70 weeks, and believed that the Roman Empire was the restraining power holding back the Antichrist. Later the Reformers, well after the darkness under Augustine, were able to look back in retrospect and see who that Antichrist power was that arose out of Rome---and hence were able to put together well-defined principle that the Reformers took a hold of and applied it to the 42 months as 1260 years.  Augustine did not recognize the day-for-year principle for the 1260 years, and he did not understand that the Beast as the Papacy.  He believed in a fictitious Antichrist like you.   He died prior to the rooted establishment and persecuting power of the Papacy. The Reformers applied the very same power which Augustine considered "the City of God", and applied it to the Antichrist Beast Power.

Now if you ask me, that is a major difference.

I would encourage you, Baptist Boy, to look beyond the perceptions that traditional Dispensationalists have conditioned their students to think. It's easy to stereotype various ideologies simply because they have an "apparent connection" to the extremist views of certain parties.  However, many times a correct view is a "balanced view" that has elements from two or more extremist views.

Historicism, yes, has some elements that are related to some ideas of Augustine, but Historicism also is layered with the ideologies stemming from the earliest Church Fathers.

On the other hand, MUCH of Dispensational Futurism can be traced to Pseudepigraphal, extra-Biblical writings by the Alexandrian Jews, which had extravagant and super literalistic views of the millennium, with a lot of mythology blended into it. 

And still more, Preterism is very mystified, and is linked with Augustine's views far more than Historicism.

Remember, I am a historicist premillennialist.  And I believe in a literal pre-millennial Second Coming, a literal millennium, a literal lake of fire, a literal antichrist, a future mark of the beast, a literal New Jerusalem, a Literal heavenly temple, etc. etc.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 10:47:33 PM by Lysimachus »

Rockroller

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Why is there so much confustion between you guys over this simple issue?  How come you can't agree on what is going to happen at the end?  What caused all of this confusion?  Surly Jesus didn't want anyone who is His bondservant living in the last days to be confused, did He?

Perhaps if one could discover the cause for the confusion, then the errors could be corrected and we could all agree.  Wouldn't that be nice?

Offline Lysimachus

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Why is there so much confustion between you guys over this simple issue?  How come you can't agree on what is going to happen at the end?  What caused all of this confusion?  Surly Jesus didn't want anyone who is His bondservant living in the last days to be confused, did He?

Perhaps if one could discover the cause for the confusion, then the errors could be corrected and we could all agree.  Wouldn't that be nice?

It seems to me you are only adding more to the confusion. =/

 

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