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Author Topic: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event  (Read 5263 times)

Offline Lysimachus

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The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« on: March 12, 2011, 07:22:54 PM »
The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
by Lysimachus

The Central focus of this topic is on two verses: Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27.  The purpose of this study is to prove that both of these verses are speaking of the same rapture event described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

The Pre-Trib world tries to divide the Second Coming into "two" events. First, the rapture of the Church at the beginning of the "7 years tribulation", and then 7 years later Christ comes back "WITH" his Church saints to destroy the enemies of Israel and setup His earthly millennial kingdom in present-day Jerusalem (ahemm...yes, the old warn-torn down city!).

There is a big problem with this philosophy, however. Hebrews 9:28 says unequivocally, and unapologetically that Jesus will "appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Heb 9:28 )

Not two more times. Not three more times. But ONE more time. The "second time!"

As I'm sure some of you know, those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture believe that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is referring to the "rapture", not the Second Coming. The problem, however, is that verse 15 calls it the "coming [parousia] of the Lord", and verse 16 clearly says the "Lord himself shall descend from heaven". Then verse 17 says that the resurrected dead and the living will be caught up to meet the Lord "in the air". So where is the Lord?  He's in the air. Not in heaven, but in the air.

Pre-Trib Rapture proponents want us to believe that Jesus will descend from heaven two more times. Not one more time.

It's a WHOLE lot more simple than that, really, as we shall now see:

All we have to do is compare 2 Thess 2:1,2 with Matthew 24:31.

Remember, Matthew 24:31 is the verse that is supposed to be the "second coming", not the rapture, according to Pre-Trib rapture proponents. What does Matthew 24:31 say?

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:31)

They place this event at the end of the 7 years, when the "Church saints come back with Christ". But let's compare the above verse with what Paul tells the CHURCH!

"Now we beseech you, brethren [The CHURCH], by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." (1 Thessalonians 2:1,2)

Did you just catch that? Whoa! Sounds like Paul is no doubt talking about the VERY same thing as Matthew!

The Pre-Trib Rapture, proponents, however, will try to convince us that Matthew 24:31 is not talking about any catching away into the clouds of heaven. Rather, they believe that Jesus is coming to "gather them in one place on the earth", not into the sky.

There is a big problem with this conclusion, however. Matthew, Mark, and Luke are known as the "synoptic gospels". They all talk about the "same thing".

How about we read Mark's account of Matthew 24:31? Shall we?

Here we go:

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:27)

Now how about we analyze the Greek:

Understanding the Greek of Mark 13:27:

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from [Gr: Ek, 'out of'] the four winds, from [Gr: Apo, 'away from'] the uttermost part of the earth to [Gr: Heos, 'until' 'as far as 'up to'] the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:27 (same as account as Matthew 24:31, but with more details)

Amazing! Did you just catch on what is transpiring here?  This verse alone completely destroys any last trace that the Second Coming and Catching Away into the clouds (rapture) are two separate events!

Dispensationalists say this event is describing the Second Coming, yet they completely fail to grasp that Mark 13:27 is clearly implying the "gathering together" of the Church into the clouds of heaven, just as 1 Thess 2:1,2 and 1 Thess 4:13-17 is. Mark's account along with the Greek CLEARLY implies that the Lord will gather his people out of the atmosphere after he has brought his people away from the earth up to or as far as the sky. These scriptures are not, in the remotest way, illustrating the return of Church saints with Christ at His glorious appearing. The word "Heos" (to) represents "going up" or "as far as" (See Luke 10:15, John 2:7; 2Cor 12:2; Heb 8:11).

Therefore, when Jesus comes the Second Time, where are the Church Saints that Paul was addressing "gathered to"?

They are gathered up into the sky (the heavens) at the revealing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven!

From there, we will be taken to heaven. Jesus clearly tells us that He is going to prepare a place in heaven for us, and he will receive us to take us there (John 14:2,3), and Revelation 19:1 concerning the future, John saw "much people in heaven, saying Alleluia". (Revelation 19:1)

Now let's think about this carefully. If the Rapture of ALL the saints from all ages takes place AT the Second Coming, and they are taken to heaven, what does the Bible say will happen to the wicked at the same time?

Go ahead now and read 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:5.

Now I want you to notice some interesting points about this passage:

1. The Righteous Dead Saints are resurrected

2. The Righteous Dead and Living Saints are caught up and gathered into the sky, where Jesus is, in the air, receiving them (imagine the earth turning, and vacuuming up all the saints into the clouds of heaven)

3. The wicked shall receive "sudden destruction" (5:3), and shall "not escape" (5:3)

Paul in 1 Thess 4:15-5:5 is describing all the things that will happen in this SINGLE event!

So, if all the righteous are taken to heaven, and all the wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming (see also 1 Thess 2:8 ) and receive "sudden destruction" and shall "not escape", how many people does that leave on the earth during the millennium?

The simple math leaves zero, zilch!  Jeremiah 4:23-28 tells us that there is no man left on the earth and all the cities are broken down at the presence of the Lord! It also tells us that the earth is left "desolate", and the "heavens will be black". The earthly reign on the earth will not commence until all the saints return with Christ and the New Jerusalem at the end of the millennium.

In All Peace that Passes Understanding,

~ Lysimachus

P.S. For those of you who are interested in evaluating this study on the Rapture and the Second Coming deeper, I invite you to evaluate the following Radio Audio Program as well as the accompanying PDF document:

Radio Program: The Rapture & Second Coming ~ by Mike Warren and D.S. Farris

Accompanying PDF Document: Christ's Second Coming ~ by D.S. Farris
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 11:12:43 AM by Lysimachus »

Offline Quasar

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2011, 12:15:08 AM »
Jesus ministry in His first advent was exclusively to Israel!

Which He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and in Mt.10:5-6.  The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, as recorded in Jn.7:39, as well as in Acts 1:9 and in Acts 2:1-3, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven.

The Olivet discourse in Mt.24; Mk.13 and in Lk.21 is about the second coming of Christ to the earth.  He never returns to heaven from there as He will when He comes for His Church before the Day of the Lord/the 70th and final week of Daniel begins, in Dan.9:27.  When He will take us to our Father in heaven with Him, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-3 and 28. 

When He returns in His second coming to the earth, it will be with His angels, according to Mt.24:31 and all His saints/Church in His armies from heaven as documented in Rev.19:14.

1 Thes.4:16 is not a Resurrection!

The statement by Paul in 1 Thes.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first,"does not mean the dead in Christ will rise immediately, on the spot, as if a resurrection is about to occur. If Paul meant it that way, he would have documented it as such. Meaning that there would be three resurrections rather than the two that are recorded in Rev.20:4-6. Which would then have to be changed from the first and second, to the second and third resurrections.

But rather than meaning it to be a resurrection, it was the third of Paul's assurances to the Thessalonians, that all the members of their church, who had already died in Christ, would not miss the pre-trib rapture of the Church he was teaching them about.

The first of Paul's three assurances begins in vs 13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep [die], or to grieve like the rest of men [non-believers], who have no hope." [Parenthetics mine].

Then he followed up his first assurance to them that all those who had previously died in Christ would be together with them at the rapture of the Church in the very next verse [14]: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." Revealing to them, that Christ had raised all those who had died in Him, had also already been previously raised once before and been with Him in heaven ever since.

There will not be any resurrected then, because all their dead in Christ had already been raised once before, in their spiritual bodies [As recorded in 1 Cor.15:44], following the death of their bodies, when they immediately went to be with Christ in heaven. Confirming Ecc.12:7 as well as 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirmed in 1 Thes.4:14, saying they are returning with Christ, when He returns, from heaven with them, according to vs 15. Therefore, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky for all those who belong to Him left here on earth alive, they will be caught up to meet the Lord, together with those who previously died in Him, who are already there!

The second of Paul's three assurances to the Thessalonicans that their dead in Christ will not miss the rapture of the Church is in vs 15, which states: "According to the Lord's own word [Recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are left [Believers] till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep [Died]." Of course not! Because they will have already been raised once before, and gone to be with the Lord in heaven in their spiritual bodies, and then return with Him when He comes from heaven! They certainly do not need a resurrection, because they are going to the spiritual world in heaven. In contrast to physical bodies will be necessary at the time of the resurrections that are documented in Rev.20:4 and 6. Because they are to be priests of God and rule with Jesus for 1,000 years right here on the earth, in a human environment! [Parenthetics mine].

The third and final assurance Paul wrote in vs 16, the subject of this thread, has already been addressed above.
There is also the false view by those, who attempt to make 1 Thes.4:16-17 a reference to the first resurrection in Rev.20:4 and 6, at the second coming of Christ, seven years after the timing Paul prophecied for it will take place. Which is not possible, because after we [All believers] have been caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, He is going to take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

Nowhere in the Bible is there a single passage of anyone called up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky, when He returns in His second coming to the earth!  Because His first of many things to do, is in fighting the antichrist, the false prophet and their ten nation armies allied to them, in the battle of Armageddon and defeating them, the forces of evil. Then in setting up His Millennial Kingdom here on the earth. He does not return to heaven from that time on until the new heaven and earth is created by God in Rev.21:1.
The precise timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church is recorded in 2 Thes.2:1-8, in which the theme of it begins in the first verse: Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our being gathered to Him..., which is a clear reference to 1 Thes.4:17, where Paul stated that we will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky.
In vs 3 He made this statement according to the original translation: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, from vs 2, the seven year tribulation] will not come until the apostasiaGreek term meaning departure [When we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the sky] occurs [first] and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction." The same vile person in vs 4 who abominates the temple of God and sets himself up as God.

The following is the translation history of the Greek term apostasia and the Latin term discessio Jerome translated apostasia as, in 325 A.D.

Translation History of apostasia and Discessio:
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384 A.D.); Tyndale Bible (1526 A.D.); Coverdale Bible (1535 A.D.); Cranmer Bible (1539 A.D.); Breeches Bible (1576 A.D.); Beza Bible (1583 A.D.); Geneva Bible (1608 A.D.) .[5] This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the " word discessio, meaning ' departure.' " Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.?

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No good reason was ever given. [Most likely because of the RCC Amillianial theology].

The difference between the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Christ

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, who is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27 and the abomination of desolation. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, which triggers the seven year tribulation, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.

There is no resemblance of Mt.24:30-31, or in any of the counterparts in Mk.13 and Lk.21 of the second coming of Christ, to the earth, to that of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, when Jesus gathers us all into the clouds of the sky and takes us from there to our Father in heaven, according to as Jesus, in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. And Paul in 1 Thes.4:14-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8. Confirming Dan.9:27. [The latter confirms who the antichrist is, his triggering the 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation and the timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as confirmed by Paul in 2 Thes.2:1-8].
In Mt.24:30-31, Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth for a number of reasons [to fight the battle of armageddon and defeat the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten nation confederation allied to them, in Rev.19:17-20. He does not gather anyone to Himself in the clouds of the sky, nor does He return to heaven with them!
But rather, to save the remnant of Israel, in Zech.14, to throw Satan into the Abyss for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3, to administer to the first resurrection, in Rev.20:4 and 6], and to establish His 1,000 year reign on the earth.
There are no saints meeting Him in the clouds of the sky, nor does He return to heaven with the saints to our Father in heaven as He promises us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. In addition to the fact the raptured saints are seen returning with Jesus and His angels [From Mt.24:30] in His second coming to the earth in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, in His armies from heaven, ridiing white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. ["Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints," Rev.19:8 NIV].

The Scriptures clearly teach there is going to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church!

All parenthetics mine.

Quasar
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 04:47:29 PM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Lysimachus

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2011, 11:09:27 PM »
For a full reply/refutation of the above post, see my response here:
http://theologyreview.com/forum/index.php/topic,7011.15.html

As Quasar pasted the same post there as he did here, and it's all taken care of there.

Offline Quasar

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2011, 12:13:38 AM »
Quote by Lysimachus:So, if all the righteous are taken to heaven, and all the wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming (see also 1 Thess 2:8 ) and receive “sudden destruction” and “not escape”, how many people does that leave on the earth during the millennium?


Q: As Jesus promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28, He is returning for all of us who belong to Him who are left here on earth alive at His appearing, to take us back with Him to our Father in heaven.  Which will take place before the 70th week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel/the seven year tribulation/the Day of the Lord, takes place, according to 2 Thes.2:1-8 as I have previously thoroughly addressed.

Your views that Mt.24:29-31 and the counter parts in Mk.13 and in Lk.21 referring to Jesus return after the distress of those days, is the second coming of Christ to the earth.  There will be no saints meeting Him in the clouds of the sky as they will in 1 Thes,4:16-17 before the tribulation begins, nor will He be returning with any of the saints to our Father in heaven at that time.

But rather, He will return with His angels, as recorded in Mt.24:31 and with His entire raptured Church in Rev.19:14.  That is what Jesus reference to the gathering from one end of the heavens to the other in vs 31 is all about.  Gathering all the raptured saints together in heaven to return with Him as recorded in Zech.14:5; Jude 14 as well as in Rev.19:14.

Your views that there won't be anyone left is pure hog wash!  In Zech.13:8, there will be a remnant of one third of Israel who began the tribulation who will survive.  In Rev.20:4 and 6, there will be millions of martyrs who will be resurrected from out of the tribulation, made priests of God and of Christ and rule with Him for 1,000 years, during His reign here on the earth.

 A parenthetic view of them is in Rev.7:9-17, who are called the great multitude.  The very same ones who will participate in the first resurrection in Rev.20:4 and 6.

During Jesus Millennial reign, there will be many more saved through the efforts of all the priests out of the first resurrection.

A final word about your views that Mt.24:29-31 and the counterparts in Mk.13 and in Lk.21 reveal both the rapture and the second coming of Jesus are one and the same event is completely false, as I have revealed not only in this post, but in all of them previously!

The church did not exist during Jesus first advent, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3!


Any more questions?


Quasar





 
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Eyes2C

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2011, 10:14:08 AM »
Who is the "he" of Daniel 9:27, and other dangers of the rapture: http://home.earthlink.net/~bobseller1/id120.html

The rapture of the wicked:  http://home.earthlink.net/~bobseller1/id9.html

Offline Lysimachus

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2011, 10:37:11 AM »
Quote by Lysimachus:So, if all the righteous are taken to heaven, and all the wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming (see also 1 Thess 2:8 ) and receive "sudden destruction" and "not escape", how many people does that leave on the earth during the millennium?


Q: As Jesus promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28, He is returning for all of us who belong to Him who are left here on earth alive at His appearing, to take us back with Him to our Father in heaven.  Which will take place before the 70th week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel/the seven year tribulation/the Day of the Lord, takes place, according to 2 Thes.2:1-8 as I have previously thoroughly addressed.

But you are visualizing my above scenario under the predilection that the Second Coming and the Rapture are 2 separate events, when the Scriptures make no such distinction. When reading 1 Thess 4:15-5:3, there is absolutely no "break" between the supposed 2 events, rather a continued explanation of the same event:

"(4:15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (4:16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (4:17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (4:18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (5:1) But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  (5:2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  (5:3) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1 Thess 4:15-5:3)

Verses 4-10 go on to explain how we, God's children, are not the children of darkness. The day of the Lord will not overtake us as a thief, because we will be eagerly awaiting.  Only those who have not been looking for their Lord and have not endured what it takes to enter heaven will be overwhelmed with surprise.  According to Psalms 91, the dead and dying will be all around us, and the plagues will be all around us, but it will not come near us. According to Isaiah 26:20,21, God's people will enter their chambers, shut their doors, and hide as it were for a little moment, until the indignation overpasses. Then Christ will come shining in the clouds to punish the inhabitants of the earth and deliver His people. If according to Dispensationalists, Israel can endure through the tribulation and be protected, then likewise, so can the Church, and it makes no sense for God to say that the Church gets to go scot-free and escape the tribulation, but Israel has to go through it.  And even if we assume that God is working with the Church separately from Israel, allow me to raise the question: Is God such a weak God that he cannot deal with both groups simultaneously?  He cannot multitask, so He must remove the Church first?  This is ridiculous. What kind of weak God is that?

Quote
Your views that Mt.24:29-31 and the counter parts in Mk.13 and in Lk.21 referring to Jesus return after the distress of those days, is the second coming of Christ to the earth.

I will agree with you that these passages are referring to the Second Coming, but what I disagree with you is that according to your view these passages do not include the Rapture.  As the original Greek text in Mark 13:27 succinctly demonstrates, the saints are gathered together out of the four winds, away from the uttermost parts of the earth, and up to the sky. This parallels 1 Thess 4:13-17 perfectly.

While Christ will return to the earth, nowhere in these passages does it say that He will put His feet on the ground.  He will only return TO the earth to gather His saints and receive them unto Himself, to take them to the mansions prepared for them. He will not return ON the earth at the Second Coming.  He will be "in the air" (1 Thess 4:17). Not until He returns with all His Church saints at the end of the millennium to hold the last judgment of the wicked (after they are resurrected to face the second death) will He put His feet on the Mount of Olives. This is not the Second Coming.  This is a Third Coming, not for salvation, but to execute the wicked, condemn them to the Lake of Fire, and make a new heavens and a new earth so that the meek can inherit it.

There will be no saints meeting Him in the clouds of the sky as they will in 1 Thes,4:16-17 before the tribulation begins, nor will He be returning with any of the saints to our Father in heaven at that time.  We must watch and be sober, and God's people are not appointed to wrath.  This does not mean tribulation, it means God's wrath of destruction AT the Second Coming.  So when Jesus comes crashing through the clouds, the wicked will flee to the rocks and try to hide themselves, calling the rocks to fall upon them...but they will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming. (see 2 Thess 2:8; Heb 12:29; Isaiah 11:4; Isaiah 13:9; 2 Thess 1:7-9).  It is at THIS same time, in "that day" (day of the Lord) (2 Thess 1:10) that Jesus comes to be "glorified in his saints" (v10), when the wicked will be destroyed.

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But rather, He will return with His angels, as recorded in Mt.24:31 and with His entire raptured Church in Rev.19:14.  That is what Jesus reference to the gathering from one end of the heavens to the other in vs 31 is all about.  Gathering all the raptured saints together in heaven to return with Him as recorded in Zech.14:5; Jude 14 as well as in Rev.19:14.

Please do note that I thoroughly addressed this idea (about what "saints" means in these passages) in this post here.  As I have already shown, Mark 13:27 unambiguously states that this gathering is a gathering up of the saints FROM the earth and INTO heaven.  And Mark 13 is a synoptic account of Matthew 24.  Zechariah 14:5 is in context of the siege of Jerusalem, and John the Revelator redefines this event (event where the Lord fights for the inhabitants of Jerusalem) and antitypically applies it at the end of the Millennium in Revelation chapter 20.  This is when Christ will put His feet down on the Mount of Olives. This is not the Second Coming, but a Third Coming, to execute judgment upon the wicked.  The Church Saints (meaning, ALL saints--including literal Israelites) will have been in heaven for 1000 years before returning with Christ to hold the last judgment of the wicked.

Quote
Your views that there won't be anyone left is pure hog wash!  In Zech.13:8, there will be a remnant of one third of Israel who began the tribulation who will survive.

It might appear to be "hogwash" at first glance, but not until you actually apply exegesis to the texts you listed will you be able to make heads or tails out of what I'm saying.

First off...

1. Zechariah 13:8 has nothing to do with the Second Coming. This "one third" makes it through the tribulation, but when Christ comes the Second Time, they will be caught up into the clouds and taken away from the earth and into heaven for 1000 years.

2. These prophecies pertaining to ancient Israel now apply to the Church.

3. These Old Testament prophecies will no longer be fulfilled in their local Palestinian settings, rather they will find a global, world-wide spiritual, antitypical fulfillment--as plainly revealed in John's writings in his Revelation.  Revelation is just that, the "revelation" of Jesus Christ, and the expositor of all the Old Testament prophecies. It helps to reveal just how all these Old Testament prophecies will be fulfilled. It was for this reason, especially, that I created a thread that deals with this governing Biblical rule of prophetic interpretation: The Antitypical Fulfillment of Old Testament Typology Concerning Ancient Israel: Conditional Types of Unconditional Antitypes

4. The next verse after Zechariah 13:8, verse 9, tells us that God will "refine" this third part of Israel "as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name".  John the Revelator takes this principle, and applies it to the Church of Laodicea in Revelation 13:18 and 19 - "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."  This concept is also alluded to in Malachi 3:2,3 where the Lord will be like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap, and shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and will purify the sons of Levi and purge them as gold and silver that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

Secondly, if you want plenty of Biblical texts proving that there will be no human beings left on this planet after Christ's Second Coming, please refer to this post here and here -- both from a different forum.  No use in cluttering this forum.

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In Rev.20:4 and 6, there will be millions of martyrs who will be resurrected from out of the tribulation, made priests of God and of Christ and rule with Him for 1,000 years, during His reign here on the earth.

Revelation 20:4 and 6 includes martyrs, but is not exclusive to them.  In 20:4a John sees saints sitting upon thrones, and included among all these saints are those martyrs who died for Jesus and were beheaded (20:4b).  In vision, John is being forwarded in time and he is seeing all the saints inside the New Jerusalem during the millennium, in heaven. Not on earth as you are inducing. Nowhere in all of Revelation 20 does it state that these saints are on the earth. Nor does it say that Christ will be reigning here on the earth during the millennium. Rather, this "reign" with Christ is in heaven! These "thrones" are in the New Jerusalem, as that is where the Father's throne is.  Judgment is committed to these saints (both non-martyrs and martyrs), as they review the judgments of God and declare God's righteous judgments just and true. These saints will be inside the New Jerusalem, that beloved city, that came down out of heaven. All the wicked that ever lived will be raised up to see that Celestial New Jerusalem, that Beloved City, with all the saints reigning with Christ safely inside of it. This is where Zechariah 14:11 can be safely applied, where it says "And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited." This prophecy can only be properly applied to the New Jerusalem, that Beloved City, in Revelation 20.

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A parenthetic view of them is in Rev.7:9-17, who are called the great multitude.  The very same ones who will participate in the first resurrection in Rev.20:4 and 6.

I don't disagree here. But you are failing to see that the "First Resurrection" of Revelation 20:4 and 6 is the very same resurrection of 1 Thess. 4:16 which unambiguously states: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first."  I realize you do not consider 1 Thess. 4:16 a resurrection, but I have dealt your argument in another thread here. It was revealed that your grave misunderstanding of 1 Thess. 4:16 not being a resurrection is rooted in the false teaching that the dead go on living in spirit form after death. But I showed you on how in Acts 2:29 and 34, even David has not ascended into the heavens.

You appear to be caught in a straight Quasar.  You know that if you were to accept 1 Thessalonians 4:16 just for what it says, that the "dead in Christ shall rise first", and is the same as the First Resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6, then your entire Dispensational chronological construct would fall to pieces.  You know that if you were to accept 1 Thessalonians 4:16 as a resurrection, then the "First Resurrection" of Revelation 20:4-6 would not really be a "FIRST" resurrection, but a "second".  This would then make three resurrections in your construct, and you know very well how untenable your eschatology would then appear. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 perfectly parallels 1 Corinthians 15:51-56, which clearly shows that the righteous dead will be raised to put on immortality.  The sinful flesh and blood of this world will not inherit the kingdom of God, but new heavenly bodies will be given us.  You appear to not connect the words "rise" (1 Thess. 4:16) and "raised" (1 Cor. 15:52) with the word "resurrection" (Revelation 20:4-6), but these words mean exactly the same.

(Continued...)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 10:23:30 AM by Lysimachus »

Offline Lysimachus

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2011, 10:38:02 AM »
(Continued...)

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During Jesus Millennial reign, there will be many more saved through the efforts of all the priests out of the first resurrection.

And it is this doctrine that appeals to the carnal nature.  Basically, it is saying "if I don't make it for the rapture, at least I'll have a second chance 7 years to get my act together before the Second Coming".  And then again, "if I don't make it during the 7 year tribulation, at least I'll have another chance for me to be converted during the millennium".  If isn't a doctrine to put the sinner to sleep, I don't know what is.

But the Word of God is TOTALLY at variance with this myopia teaching.

Revelation 22:11 and 12 teaches unambiguously, and unapologetically, that probation for the ENTIRE WORLD is closed just prior to Christ's Second Advent:

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." (Revelation 22:11,12)

Careful exegesis reveals that the close of probation occurs at the commencement of the falling of the 7 last plagues.  Once the 7 last plagues fall, there is NO MORE mercy for sinners. Probation is closed, as Christ at this time has stepped out of the Heavenly Sanctuary and put on His garments of vengeance. There is NO MORE MEDIATOR between God and man in the Heavenly Sanctuary, and Christ's ministration as High Priest has ceased. Christ brings His reward to EVERY MAN at the Second Advent, and he who is filthy remains filthy, and he who is righteous remains righteous. There will be NO MORE mediation for ANYONE during the millennium.  All cases are CLOSED. The last thing remaining is the executive judgment at the end of the millennium, when all the wicked will be raised to face the Great White Throne Judgment at the base of the New Jerusalem sitting atop the Mount of Olives, that came down out of heaven.

It is apparent that you are under the assumption that because we will be "priests", that this means there will be intercession for sinners. This is not the case.

First, let me point out that we will be priests forever just like Jesus is our High Priest "for ever" (Hebrews 6:20). Does this mean that Jesus is going to forgive sins "for ever"? That would mean wicked people live for ever too. Christ will be our High Priest forever, but His ministration does not last forever.

Revelation 22:5 says:"they shall reign for ever and ever."

Does this mean they will reign as kings over wicked or unsaved people for ever and ever?

No. Adam had "dominion over the earth" when he was all by himself in Genesis.  This means he had dominion over nature. One needs to take off Dispensational goggles, because these goggles prevent people from ascertaining the proper use of certain Biblical terminology.

Secondly, these priests (saints) who will reign with Christ during the 1000 years will not be on earth. You will not find one single verse in the entire Bible that tells you the millennial reign is on earth. Not one. All scriptural texts that refer to an earthly reign are referring to AFTER the millennium, when the saints return with Christ in the New Jerusalem for the executive and last judgment of the wicked, when they face the "second death" after they are resurrected.

Thirdly, Peter in 1 Peter 2 calls the Gentile Church a "royal priesthood" presently. Does this mean they can forgive sins? Moses in Exodus 19:6 calls all the Israelites a "kingdom of priests". Revelation 1:6 calls Church saints "priests" in the present-tense. And in other places the Bible calls us "priests" many times too. Does this mean that we can forgive sins?

Of course not. In the same way that we are priests today, we will be priests during and after the millennium. The term "priest" is also an expression to represent the purity and undefiled character of God's people.

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A final word about your views that Mt.24:29-31 and the counterparts in Mk.13 and in Lk.21 reveal both the rapture and the second coming of Jesus are one and the same event is completely false, as I have revealed not only in this post, but in all of them previously!

The Word of God still compels me to believe otherwise. A plain sense reading of these passages should not in anywise cause an honest student of the word, who respects the simplicity of the gospel, to conclude that the Rapture is an event that transpires separately from the Second Advent of Christ. They are simultaneous events, and agreed upon by all the Apostles, all the Church Fathers, and ALL the Reformers of old. The saints of all ages will dwell in heaven, in the mansions prepared for them, for not merely 7 years, but for 1000 years before the meek inherit the earth!

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The church did not exist during Jesus first advent, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39, until Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3!

The Church began the moment Christ started His ministry. This is clearly alluded to in Matthew 16:18 and 18:17. The 12 apostles replaced the 12 literal tribes of Israel, and were the 12 foundations of the Church, symbolized by their names on each of the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem, the bride of Christ (see Revelation 21:2, 14). It is an assumption to conclude that the Church did not begin until Pentecost.  Pentecost was the first time the Holy Spirit poured out in such large measure, yes, but it was not the beginning of the Church.  The Church was the continuation of the seed of Israel, and Israel was the Old Testament Church (see Acts 7:37-40). The Greek word for Church (Ekklesia) simply meant "congregation", or "the ones called out". If you want a thorough analytical study on this, please read the following article: The Word "Church" in the Old Testament and be sure to not miss part two at the bottom.


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Any more questions?

I have been asking questions? I think it is fair to say I am decently familiar with your theological positions. I will argue that Adventist Historicism is the only ideological system on the planet that is capable of thoroughly revealing the shaky foundations of Dispensational Futurism and meeting it head on.  Preterism only shoots itself in the foot, just like Postmillennialism and Amillennialism.  It is error countering error, and to your advantage, Dispensationalism does happen to have the upper-hand when countering these other false systems that fail to take into account so many other scriptures. But Adventist Historicism does not miss a lick—maintains the perfect symmetry of the Scriptures—and takes in the totality of the entire Word.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 10:29:21 AM by Lysimachus »

Rockroller

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2011, 08:14:23 PM »
Marcus,

I have noticed that you are sincere with your posts but that you tend to place people in a box with their beliefs.   Could you be so kind as to defend your belief that everyone belongs in a box of some kind?

Another problem is with your rules for understanding end time prophecy.  Would you please identify them for me?  After all, how can one play the game without knowing what the rules are?

And can you please show how Paul could have known anything about end time events since the book of Revelation had yet to be written by the time he wrote his letters?  After all, Saul/Paul was not an eyewitness to the ministry of Jesus when He was here on this earth, right?

It is my understaning that Jesus will come like a thief prior to the time of trouble in order to seal the 144,000 as the first fruits.  Matthew 25:1-13 show us that when this happens even those in the Kingdom of Heaven (ten virgins) will not see Jesus come because they will be spiritually sleeping.

The coming in the clouds is at the end and the world will not be the same at that time.  Therefore it is impossible for these two events to be the same.

Offline Lysimachus

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2011, 09:36:26 AM »
Marcus,

I have noticed that you are sincere with your posts

I take that as a compliment. Thank you.

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but that you tend to place people in a box with their beliefs.   Could you be so kind as to defend your belief that everyone belongs in a box of some kind?

My main purpose of posting these topics was to offset the labyrinth of posts given by Quasar, who is Dispensational-Futurist and Pre-Trib in his beliefs. So these posts are not targeting everyone, rather to those who specifically adhere to Dispensational-Futurism.

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Another problem is with your rules for understanding end time prophecy.  Would you please identify them for me?  After all, how can one play the game without knowing what the rules are?

My rules are Historicism. But I believe in a future tribulation, which is the zenith point of the historic model.

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And can you please show how Paul could have known anything about end time events since the book of Revelation had yet to be written by the time he wrote his letters?  After all, Saul/Paul was not an eyewitness to the ministry of Jesus when He was here on this earth, right?

Jesus revealed these things to Paul through vision and inspiration. You don't have to physically be an eye-witness to the ministry of Jesus in order to be inspired.  Jesus is not limited like that. He can appear to you, even if you grew up on the North Pole.

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It is my understaning that Jesus will come like a thief prior to the time of trouble in order to seal the 144,000 as the first fruits.  Matthew 25:1-13 show us that when this happens even those in the Kingdom of Heaven (ten virgins) will not see Jesus come because they will be spiritually sleeping.

That is definitely a viable application to the "thief in the night" passage. As far as I know, Adventism has always put heavy weight into this application, that the "thief in the night" applies to the close of probation prior to the Second Coming. I think, however, there are more ways to apply these expressions than just one. The Scriptures are broad in their meaning and application.

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The coming in the clouds is at the end and the world will not be the same at that time.  Therefore it is impossible for these two events to be the same.

True, but the purpose of this article was to prove that there is only "one gathering" event.  There is no "gathering" of the saints when Christ comes as a "thief in the night", when applying this phrase to the close of probation.

Remember Rockroller, Dispensationalists know nothing about the "close of probation" concept.  To them the concept is foreign, and trying to explain it to them requires an entire study separate in itself.  So I am trying to keep things as simple as possible for them for now.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 10:30:48 AM by Lysimachus »

Rockroller

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2011, 02:12:04 PM »
Thanks!  I now see why you wrote what you did and can appreciate it better!

Offline Lysimachus

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2011, 02:21:30 PM »
Thanks!  I now see why you wrote what you did and can appreciate it better!

You're welcome bro! :)

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2012, 11:03:23 AM »
POST-TRIB PROBLEMS

By: Thomas Ice, PhD.

One of the strengths of the pre-trib position is that it is better able to harmonize the many events of end-time prophecy because of its distinction between the rapture and the second coming. Normally, posttribulationists do not even attempt to answers such objections and the few that try struggle with the biblical text. Yet, pretribulationists do not encounter difficulties in providing answers. What are some post-trib problems?

First, posttribulationism requires that the church will be present during the 70th week of Daniel (Dan. 9:24-27) even though it was absent from the first 69. This is in spite of the fact that Daniel 9:24 says that all 70 weeks are for Israel. Pretribulationism is not in conflict with this passage, as is posttribulationism, since the church departs before the beginning of the seven-year period.

Second, posttribulationism must deny the New Testament teaching of imminency-that Christ could come at any-moment. Pretribulationism does not have a problem with these New Testament passages, since they believe that no signs must precede the rapture.

Third, premillennial posttribulationism has no answer to their problem of who will populate the millennium if the rapture and second coming occur at the same time. Since all believers will be translated at the rapture and all unbelievers judged, because no unrighteous shall be allowed to enter Christ's kingdom, then no one would be left in mortal bodies to start the population base for the millennium. The pre-trib viewpoint does not have a problem at this point.

Fourth, posttribulationism is not able to explain the sheep and goats judgment after the second coming in Matthew 25:31-46. As in the previous problem, how would there be any believers in mortal bodies, if they were raptured at the second coming, who would be available to enter into Christ's kingdom? Pretribulationism does not have such a problem.

Fifth, since Revelation 19:7-8 indicates that the church, Christ's Bride, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth (Rev. 19:14) before the second coming, how could this reasonably happen if part of the church is still on earth awaiting Christ's Advent? If the rapture of the church takes place at the second coming, then how does the Bride (i.e., the church) also come with Christ at His return? There would not be sufficient time for this to happen within a posttribulational sequence, but the pre-trib position has no such problem.

CONCLUSION

The distinctions between Christ's coming in the air to rapture His church are too great to be reduced into a single coming at the end of the tribulation. These biblical distinctions provide a strong basis for the pre-trib rapture teaching. W

ENDNOTES

1John S. Feinberg, "Arguing for the Rapture: Who Must Prove What and How" in Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, editors When The Trumpet Sounds (Eugene, Org.: Harvest House Publishers, forthcoming July 1995).

2Edward E. Hindson, "The Rapture and the Return: Two Aspects of Christ's Coming" in Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, editors When The Trumpet Sounds (Eugene, Org.: Harvest House Publishers, forthcoming July 1995).

3The quotation and the first six contrasts in the graphic above are taken from John F. Walvoord, The Return of the Lord (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1955), 87-88.

4Hindson, Ibid.

For the complete article see the following:

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/tt10.html


Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Lysimachus

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2012, 02:38:54 PM »
Quote from: Quasar
First, posttribulationism requires that the church will be present during the 70th week of Daniel (Dan. 9:24-27) even though it was absent from the first 69.

Adventists do not believe that there is such thing as a future 70th week, so this is not even a problem for us.  Nowhere in Daniel 9:24-27 does it say anyone will be absent through it. The future tribulation to come is not related whatsoever with the 70th week.  It is a complete different time period altogether.  In addition, Paul is very clear in 2 Thessalonians 2 that Antichrist comes "first" before the great Day of the Lord--the day of the rapture.

Quote from: Quasar
This is in spite of the fact that Daniel 9:24 says that all 70 weeks are for Israel. Pretribulationism is not in conflict with this passage, as is posttribulationism, since the church departs before the beginning of the seven-year period.

The 7 year period began in 27 A.D. and terminated in 34 A.D.  The "he" in Daniel 9:27 is Jesus Christ, and He was "cut off" in the "midst of the 70th week". He was crucified in 31 A.D., and brought an end to the sacrificial system and its value.

Quote from: Quasar
Second, posttribulationism must deny the New Testament teaching of imminency-that Christ could come at any-moment. Pretribulationism does not have a problem with these New Testament passages, since they believe that no signs must precede the rapture.

It will still be imminent. The signs will tell us when it is near, even at the doors, but for the wicked, they will not be heeding the signs.  They will be children of the dark.  The Second Coming will catch them by surprise.  But God's people who have been purified and refined will not be caught unawares. They will be ready to receive Him when He appears in the clouds.

Quote from: Quasar
Third, premillennial posttribulationism has no answer to their problem of who will populate the millennium if the rapture and second coming occur at the same time. Since all believers will be translated at the rapture and all unbelievers judged, because no unrighteous shall be allowed to enter Christ's kingdom, then no one would be left in mortal bodies to start the population base for the millennium. The pre-trib viewpoint does not have a problem at this point.

This not a problem at all for Adventists, because we believe the earth will be completely depopulated during the millennium, and the reign with Christ will be in heaven, in the New Jerusalem, with our glorified bodies. The earthly reign begins at the end of the millennium, after the earth is made new. Yet the Second Coming is still premillennial.

Here are some articles proving it:

http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/1000years.htm
http://awhn.webs.com/1000yearshereorthere.htm
http://www.1000yearmillennium.com/
http://www.1000yearmillennium.info/
http://www.1000yearmillennium.com/1000yearmillennium.html
http://www.scribd.com/propheticlandmarks/d/75414093-The-True-Nature-of-the-Millennium-1-0

Quote from: Quasar
Fourth, posttribulationism is not able to explain the sheep and goats judgment after the second coming in Matthew 25:31-46. As in the previous problem, how would there be any believers in mortal bodies, if they were raptured at the second coming, who would be available to enter into Christ's kingdom? Pretribulationism does not have such a problem.

This division between the sheep and the goats will be realized at the end of the millennium, when all the saints are safely inside the New Jerusalem, while all the resurrected wicked are outside the New Jerusalem.  There is no problem here at all.

Quote from: Quasar
Fifth, since Revelation 19:7-8 indicates that the church, Christ's Bride, is made ready to accompany Christ to earth (Rev. 19:14) before the second coming, how could this reasonably happen if part of the church is still on earth awaiting Christ's Advent? If the rapture of the church takes place at the second coming, then how does the Bride (i.e., the church) also come with Christ at His return? There would not be sufficient time for this to happen within a posttribulational sequence, but the pre-trib position has no such problem.

Revelation 19:7-8 mentions nothing about the saints making themselves ready to accompany Christ to the earth. These saints being clothed in fine linen are the saints getting ready for Jesus to come and pick them up.  In verse 14, it says "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." It does not say these are Church saints. 

Revelation 15:6 does however tell us that angels are clothed in pure and white and clean linen. So these armies in 19:14 could very well be angels.

However, even if saints are involved coming with Christ at the Second Advent, there are many Old Testament saints that went to heaven with Christ at His ascension. See Psalms 68:18; Ephesians 4:8; Matthew 27:52,53. Christ took to heaven many captives with Him to heaven from the Old Testament. These Old Testament saints will most likely descend with Christ and all the angels at the Second Advent. 

The fine, pure, clean, and white linen will be on both the angels and all those saints that went to heaven--including Moses, Elijah, Enoch, and all the Old Testament saints that were resurrected and ascended to heaven (in their glorified bodies) with Christ when he led captivity captive.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 03:23:04 PM by Lysimachus »

Offline Quasar

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2012, 10:29:27 AM »
First of all we'll take a look at the Scriptural support for the Millennial reign of Christ here on earth.  This article is oriented towards a rebuke of Amillennialism, but addresses that of Lysimachus as well.

Scriptures that prove the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ on Earth that reveal the heretic teachings of Amillennialism.

Matthew 19:28--And Jesus said unto them, Truly I say unto you, that ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Messieh comes in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 25:31--When the Messieh shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory.

This coming with power and great glory with his angels is well documented (Matthew 24:30-31). And that he sits on an earthly throne after this coming cannot be disproven. Right now, John saw him on a Throne in heaven. He is there as God and reigns as God on that throne. He has never ceased to be God and there has ever been a Kingdom of God in heaven. He said: Heaven is my throne and the earth is my footstool. But he also said to the Apostles his throne would be upon this earth. He brought this heavenly Kingdom to earth and he will reign here in person as the heir of David's throne in the millennial.

2Peter 3:8--But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

In verse 7 it appears Apostle Peter had given a prophecy of the very end of the world when it would be destroyed. Then in retrospect of a time before that event he gives us the prophecy of the thousand years and equates it as one day with the Lord. He urges us not to be ignorant of this time frame of a day being equal to a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4--And I saw thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,and for the word of God,and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither has received his mark upon their foreheads, or upon their hands; and they lived and reigned with Messieh a thousand years.

Matthew 25:34--Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come ye blessed of God, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

1Corinthians 6:9--Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, etc. ect.

Revelation 21:7--They that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be their God, and they shall be my elect.

Revelation 5:10--And has made us unto God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 20:6--Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Messieh, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It is obvious that the 1,000 years follows the resurrection. It is also obvious the 1,000 years is a time when death has no power over the Saints of God. This can only be after the second coming at which time it is said:

1Corinthians 15:54--So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

It is further obvious that the 1,000 years is after the first physical resurrection of those dead, after death has no power, that the resurrected Saints reign as Priests of God for one thousand years. The sequence must remain intact and in sequential order. The same 1,000 years the devil is bound is the same 1,000 years those who were martyred for not taking the mark of the beast are physically raised in a resurrection and reign with the Lord.

To say the 1,000 years runs concurrently or parallel with the Church is to say the physical resurrection of those who were martyred is past. The amillennialist have yet to prove there are resurrected martyrs in the world and have been here since their alleged 1,000 began. Such is demanded if the spiritualization of the 1,000 years as the Church age is correct. Are there many thousands of Saints who already have immortality and are deathless, and that they are now as Priest reigning with Messieh upon the earth?

The present Ministry of the Church are not reigning and are forbidden to be Lord's over God's heritage. They are nor deathless. And the resurrection and immortality have not come yet because Jesus has not returned. To have immortality here now is to say that Jesus has come already. And if he has, what of their end of the world when he comes. Why are we still here? Why has not the world ended? Please read on now as I bring forth more on this important endtime subject.

By Pastor G. Reckart

From: 
http://jesus-messiah.com/apologetics/catholic/amill1.html


The following are links to a number of other sources that support the 7th Millennium, the Millennial kingdom of Israel Jesus will be sitting on the throne of David.

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2011/08/26/millennial-kingdom-of-christ-here-on-earth/

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2011/10/04/is-jesus-millennial-reign-going-to-be-heree-on-the/

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2011/10/14/scriptural-facts-about-jesus-millennial-reign-here/



Quasar

« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 10:43:42 AM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Quasar

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2012, 12:19:53 PM »
Adventists do not believe that there is such thing as a future 70th week, so this is not even a problem for us.  Nowhere in Daniel 9:24-27 does it say anyone will be absent through it. The future tribulation to come is not related whatsoever with the 70th week.  It is a complete different time period altogether.  In addition, Paul is very clear in 2 Thessalonians 2 that Antichrist comes "first" before the great Day of the Lord--the day of the rapture.

Quasar:  First of all let's look at the 70th and final week of God's decree on the destiny of Israel.  All three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27 are one and the same person; he confirms a covenant/agreement; in the middle of the week, he will stop the offerings and sacrifices and then set up an abomination of desolation of God's temple until the end decreed to be poured out on him.  Confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15 and 21 as well as in the counterparts of Mk.13 and Lk.21.  As well as by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8 in addition to Rev.13.

Review the following:  http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2011/08/29/reasons-for-israels-70-year-exile-the-70-week-prop/#post0


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Quote from: Lysimachus

The 7 year period began in 27 A.D. and terminated in 34 A.D.  The "he" in Daniel 9:27 is Jesus Christ, and He was "cut off" in the "midst of the 70th week". He was crucified in 31 A.D., and brought an end to the sacrificial system and its value.

Q: The first "he' of Dan.9:27 is the same "he" as the following two in the same verse as previously addressed.  Your allegations it is Jesus contradicts the Scriptures that reveal him to be the very same person as the "little horn" of Dan.7:8 and 11 and all those listed previously above.

Quote from: Lysimachus

It will still be imminent. The signs will tell us when it is near, even at the doors, but for the wicked, they will not be heeding the signs.  They will be children of the dark.  The Second Coming will catch them by surprise.  But God's people who have been purified and refined will not be caught unawares. They will be ready to receive Him when He appears in the clouds.

Q:  Review the following for the Scriptural description of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church:

http://theologyreview.com/index.php/topic,7196.0.html


Quote from: Lysimachus

This not a problem at all for Adventists, because we believe the earth will be completely depopulated during the millennium, and the reign with Christ will be in heaven, in the New Jerusalem, with our glorified bodies. The earthly reign begins at the end of the millennium, after the earth is made new. Yet the Second Coming is still premillennial.

Here are some articles proving it:

http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/1000years.htm
http://awhn.webs.com/1000yearshereorthere.htm
http://www.1000yearmillennium.com/
http://www.1000yearmillennium.info/
http://www.1000yearmillennium.com/1000yearmillennium.html
http://www.scribd.com/propheticlandmarks/d/75414093-The-True-Nature-of-the-Millennium-1-0

Q: The following are links to a number of other sources that support the 7th Millennium, the Millennial kingdom of Israel, when Jesus will be sitting on the throne of David.

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2011/08/26/millennial-kingdom-of-christ-here-on-earth/

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2011/10/04/is-jesus-millennial-reign-going-to-be-heree-on-the/

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2011/10/14/scriptural-facts-about-jesus-millennial-reign-here/


Quote from: Lysimachus

This division between the sheep and the goats will be realized at the end of the millennium, when all the saints are safely inside the New Jerusalem, while all the resurrected wicked are outside the New Jerusalem.  There is no problem here at all.

Q: The next of the end times events that will take place is the Pre-trib rapture of the Church, addressed previously above, according to Jn.14:2-4,28; 1 Thes.4:13-17 and 2 Thes.2:1-8. 

Then the "he", who is the man of lawlessness seen in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8, the beast out of the sea in Rev.13, of Dan.9:27 will trigger the 70th week of Dan.9:7.  The seven year tribulation confirmed in Mt.24:21; Mk.13:19; Lk.21:26 and Rev.6:1-17.

Jesus will return from heaven with His angels, according to Mt.24:31 and His saints, the Church, in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14.  Take note of the fact, all those who had previously died in Christ since Pentecost will be returning with Him, as well as all those He raptures before the 7 year tribulation begins.  According to the events of 2 Cor.5:6-8; 1 Thes.4:14; the marriage in heaven in Rev.19:7-9 to the second coming of Christ as previously addressed.

The following events will take place after Jesus second advent to the earth - when all of the present heaven will be vacated.  All the angels and all the saints who have been there, will return with Jesus, to the earth, at His second advent.  Because it will be destroyed according to 2 Pet.3:7 and Rev.21:1, along with the present earth at the end of His Millennial reign on the earth, which begins at the end of the 7 year tribulation, according to Rev.20:6. 

After the tribulation is over, only one third of the original population of the earth will remain [If today, it would be about 2.3 billion], according to Zech.13:8, together with all the resurrected tribulation saints of Rev.20:4 and 6.  Who will be made priests of God and of Christ and rule with Him for 1,000 years.  Satan will be locked up in the Abyss for the same 1,000 years Jesus reigns here on earth.

When Jesus 1,000 year reign is over, Satan will be released and rebell against God with a huge army.  Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire and his army destroyed according to Rev.20:9-10.

The GWT judgement will then take place, all the dead are raised for the second resurrection, recorded in Rev.20:5, death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire alon with evryone who's name is not writen in the book of life.

THEN THE PRESENT HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY AND GOD WILL PROVIDE US WITH A NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH according to Rev.21:1.


Quote from: Lysimachus

Revelation 19:7-8 mentions nothing about the saints making themselves ready to accompany Christ to the earth. These saints being clothed in fine linen are the saints getting ready for Jesus to come and pick them up.  In verse 14, it says "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." It does not say these are Church saints.

Q: Rev.19:7-9 addresses the Bride, who are the saints/the Church when the marriage takes place with the Lamb/Jesus in heaven.  Followed shortly thereafter in vs 14, with the saints/Church, riding white horses [angels are not seen riding horses anywhere in the Bible], dressed in fine linen, white and clean ["Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints," recorded in Rev.19:8  NIV], following Him in His armies from heaven. 

Quote from: Lysimachus

Revelation 15:6 does however tell us that angels are clothed in pure and white and clean linen. So these armies in 19:14 could very well be angels.

Q: Angels are not seen riding horses anywhere in the Bible.

Quote from: Lysimachus
However, even if saints are involved coming with Christ at the Second Advent, there are many Old Testament saints that went to heaven with Christ at His ascension. See Psalms 68:18; Ephesians 4:8; Matthew 27:52,53. Christ took to heaven many captives with Him to heaven from the Old Testament. These Old Testament saints will most likely descend with Christ and all the angels at the Second Advent.

Q: Probably so, along with all His saints/Church, as recorded in Zech.14:5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14. 

Quote from: Lysimachus

The fine, pure, clean, and white linen will be on both the angels and all those saints that went to heaven--including Moses, Elijah, Enoch, and all the Old Testament saints that were resurrected and ascended to heaven (in their glorified bodies) with Christ when he led captivity captive.

Q: Probably so, along with all the Church saints according to Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14.


Quasar
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 01:48:09 PM by Quasar »
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