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Author Topic: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event  (Read 5424 times)

Offline Nats

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2013, 11:54:13 AM »
The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
by Lysimachus

The Central focus of this topic is on two verses: Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27.  The purpose of this study is to prove that both of these verses are speaking of the same rapture event described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

The Pre-Trib world tries to divide the Second Coming into "two" events. First, the rapture of the Church at the beginning of the "7 years tribulation", and then 7 years later Christ comes back "WITH" his Church saints to destroy the enemies of Israel and setup His earthly millennial kingdom in present-day Jerusalem (ahemm...yes, the old warn-torn down city!).

There is a big problem with this philosophy, however. Hebrews 9:28 says unequivocally, and unapologetically that Jesus will "appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Heb 9:28 )

Not two more times. Not three more times. But ONE more time. The "second time!"

As I'm sure some of you know, those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture believe that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is referring to the "rapture", not the Second Coming. The problem, however, is that verse 15 calls it the "coming [parousia] of the Lord", and verse 16 clearly says the "Lord himself shall descend from heaven". Then verse 17 says that the resurrected dead and the living will be caught up to meet the Lord "in the air". So where is the Lord?  He's in the air. Not in heaven, but in the air.

Pre-Trib Rapture proponents want us to believe that Jesus will descend from heaven two more times. Not one more time.

It's a WHOLE lot more simple than that, really, as we shall now see:

All we have to do is compare 2 Thess 2:1,2 with Matthew 24:31.

Remember, Matthew 24:31 is the verse that is supposed to be the "second coming", not the rapture, according to Pre-Trib rapture proponents. What does Matthew 24:31 say?

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (Matthew 24:31)

They place this event at the end of the 7 years, when the "Church saints come back with Christ". But let's compare the above verse with what Paul tells the CHURCH!

"Now we beseech you, brethren [The CHURCH], by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." (1 Thessalonians 2:1,2)

Did you just catch that? Whoa! Sounds like Paul is no doubt talking about the VERY same thing as Matthew!

The Pre-Trib Rapture, proponents, however, will try to convince us that Matthew 24:31 is not talking about any catching away into the clouds of heaven. Rather, they believe that Jesus is coming to "gather them in one place on the earth", not into the sky.

There is a big problem with this conclusion, however. Matthew, Mark, and Luke are known as the "synoptic gospels". They all talk about the "same thing".

How about we read Mark's account of Matthew 24:31? Shall we?

Here we go:

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:27)

Now how about we analyze the Greek:

Understanding the Greek of Mark 13:27:

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from [Gr: Ek, 'out of'] the four winds, from [Gr: Apo, 'away from'] the uttermost part of the earth to [Gr: Heos, 'until' 'as far as 'up to'] the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:27 (same as account as Matthew 24:31, but with more details)

Amazing! Did you just catch on what is transpiring here?  This verse alone completely destroys any last trace that the Second Coming and Catching Away into the clouds (rapture) are two separate events!

Dispensationalists say this event is describing the Second Coming, yet they completely fail to grasp that Mark 13:27 is clearly implying the "gathering together" of the Church into the clouds of heaven, just as 1 Thess 2:1,2 and 1 Thess 4:13-17 is. Mark's account along with the Greek CLEARLY implies that the Lord will gather his people out of the atmosphere after he has brought his people away from the earth up to or as far as the sky. These scriptures are not, in the remotest way, illustrating the return of Church saints with Christ at His glorious appearing. The word "Heos" (to) represents "going up" or "as far as" (See Luke 10:15, John 2:7; 2Cor 12:2; Heb 8:11).

Therefore, when Jesus comes the Second Time, where are the Church Saints that Paul was addressing "gathered to"?

They are gathered up into the sky (the heavens) at the revealing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven!

From there, we will be taken to heaven. Jesus clearly tells us that He is going to prepare a place in heaven for us, and he will receive us to take us there (John 14:2,3), and Revelation 19:1 concerning the future, John saw "much people in heaven, saying Alleluia". (Revelation 19:1)

Now let's think about this carefully. If the Rapture of ALL the saints from all ages takes place AT the Second Coming, and they are taken to heaven, what does the Bible say will happen to the wicked at the same time?

Go ahead now and read 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:5.

Now I want you to notice some interesting points about this passage:

1. The Righteous Dead Saints are resurrected

2. The Righteous Dead and Living Saints are caught up and gathered into the sky, where Jesus is, in the air, receiving them (imagine the earth turning, and vacuuming up all the saints into the clouds of heaven)

3. The wicked shall receive "sudden destruction" (5:3), and shall "not escape" (5:3)

Paul in 1 Thess 4:15-5:5 is describing all the things that will happen in this SINGLE event!

So, if all the righteous are taken to heaven, and all the wicked are destroyed by the brightness of His coming (see also 1 Thess 2:8 ) and receive "sudden destruction" and shall "not escape", how many people does that leave on the earth during the millennium?

The simple math leaves zero, zilch!  Jeremiah 4:23-28 tells us that there is no man left on the earth and all the cities are broken down at the presence of the Lord! It also tells us that the earth is left "desolate", and the "heavens will be black". The earthly reign on the earth will not commence until all the saints return with Christ and the New Jerusalem at the end of the millennium.

In All Peace that Passes Understanding,

~ Lysimachus

P.S. For those of you who are interested in evaluating this study on the Rapture and the Second Coming deeper, I invite you to evaluate the following Radio Audio Program as well as the accompanying PDF document:

Radio Program: The Rapture & Second Coming ~ by Mike Warren and D.S. Farris

Accompanying PDF Document: Christ's Second Coming ~ by D.S. Farris

Lysimachus, you sound a lot like myself when I first started posting about the rapture doctrine. I thought it was a good presentation.

Consider this question though,
when Christ descends, at His coming,
where does He descend to?
The Answer is in Zech.14 and Acts 1:1-12
As you see Him Ascend, in like manner you will see Him descend.
Where was He standing?
He doesn’t stop short of the earth.

Offline Nats

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2013, 12:46:46 PM »
The Rapture doctrine begs the question, "What exactly are you to be raptured from"?

Consider this presentation to the question I ask...

"What exactly are you to be raptured from"? To save your flesh body from pain? To save your flesh and or soul when the greatest evil abounds on earth?

To be 'raptured' completely contradicts the scriptures:

Rom 8:36 
As it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:37 
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors
through Him (Christ) that loved us.
Rom 8:38 
For I am persuaded,
that neither death,
(physical or, which is to say, the devil -Heb.2:14)
nor life, (and the pain we endure)
nor angels, (Fallen ones, Satan's angels)
nor principalities,
nor powers,
nor things present,
nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 
Nor height,
nor depth,
nor any other creature,
shall be able to separate us from the love of God,
which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(that's while we're in the flesh body)

And...

Mat 10:28 
And fear not them which kill the body, (flesh man)
but are not able to kill the soul: 
but rather fear Him (God) which is able
to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Only God's judgment can)

So it can't be to save the flesh body from pain or death.

And the spiritual war...

Eph 6:10 
Finally, my brethren,
be strong in the Lord,
and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 
Put on the whole armor of God,
that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood,
(in the spirit)
but against principalities, (second witness to Romans 8 here again)
against powers,
against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13 
Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, (for war)
that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day,
and having done all, to stand. (Not Rapture away)
Eph 6:14 
Stand therefore,
having your loins girt about with truth,
and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 
Above all, taking the shield of faith,
wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 
And take the helmet of salvation,
and the sword of the Spirit,
which is the word of God:

These things are for war to combat spiritual wickedness, either physical or spiritual. We are told to take a stand.
With this armor we can quench ALL the 'fiery darts' of the wicked one.

So why and what exactly would anyone possibly be raptured away from given and considering the scripture show above?

These make a 'rapture' doctrine pure contradiction.

So what will we do in the day's of sudden fear?

Pro 3:25 
Be not afraid of sudden fear,
neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh.

 
1. - We have the corruptible flesh
2. - And we have the spiritual war

What are they being 'raptured' from that doesn't contradict the above scriptures?



Offline Lysimachus

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2013, 05:05:28 PM »
Hello Nats, thank you for your comment.

Quote
Lysimachus, you sound a lot like myself when I first started posting about the rapture doctrine. I thought it was a good presentation.

Consider this question though,
when Christ descends, at His coming,
where does He descend to?
The Answer is in Zech.14 and Acts 1:1-12
As you see Him Ascend, in like manner you will see Him descend.
Where was He standing?
He doesn’t stop short of the earth.

Ah, you have just opened up the single-biggest can of worms when it comes to an understanding of the millennium brother! ;)  Yes, I am well aware of your position.

I can easily answer your question above, but I will warn you, it will most definitely escalate into a completely different realm of discussion.  I will tell you, however, that I have wrestled with these arguments over the last 15 years. Now, I'll be up front with you. I'm not going to lie.  The eschatological construct of the Second Advent and Millennium that I subscribe to is that of the Seventh-Day Adventist position.  I beg of you not to let our discussion evolve into discussing Adventism (I was born in a 4th generation Adventist home), so let's be sensitive to each other's backgrounds. Deal?

At the same time, keep in mind that while I grew up Adventist, I did not really know what I believed during most of my youth, so therefore, one day, after almost losing my leg from a severe injury, and God waking me up to spiritual things, I began to study like never before. My conclusions are not based on my upbringing, but based off of my own personal years of 1. Reading my Bible with much prayer, 2. Reading many theological books from many different sides, 3. Spending time associating and fellowshiping with other people from many different denominational backgrounds and theological persuasions, and traveling extensively all over the US. My view of the millennium is based off of not only my personal research, but some of the most exhaustive theological works---some of the best coming from our Adventist pioneers such as James White, Uriah Smith, J. N. Andrews, J. N. Loughborough, Prescott, A. T. Jones, J. H. Waggoner, E. J. Waggoner, S. N. Haskell, G. I. Buttler, A. G. Daniells, etc. etc.

So here is your answer in a nutshell:

Zechariah 14 is not describing the Second Coming.  It's describing the Third Coming at the end of the Millennium.

At the Second Advent, Premillennially, Christ descends from heaven in the clouds, and all the saints are caught up to meet Him in the air.  All the wicked at this time are destroyed by the brightness of His Coming.  The saints follow Christ and are transported up to the Heavenly Jerusalem, in heaven, to reign with Christ a thousand years.  The wicked remain dead on this earth for 1000 years, while Satan and his demons are trapped on this desolated planet, with no man to tempt or manipulate.  I'm not backing this up from scripture right now as I don't have much time, but just know that if you want a full and thorough presentation, I can link you to a number of threads in other forums where I go into great depth concerning the Second Coming, the Millennium, the Third Advent, and Zechariah 14. 

This dark, uninhabited earth will be the "bottomless pit", or "abyss" where Satan will dwell for 1000 years, while the saints are in the New Jerusalem judging the wicked, reviewing the judgments of God and determining the degree of punishment for each of the wicked.

At the end of the 1000, Christ and all the saints return to the earth WITH the New Jerusalem, that Beloved City.  Christ descends upon the Mount of Olives, and a great plain is formed.  This is where the New Jerusalem will settle.  All the wicked that ever lived are resurrected.  Satan now goes out to deceive, or convince these wicked nations that they have a chance against the New Jerusalem, and convinces them to besiege the city.

Zechariah 14 will now be fulfilled "antitypically".  Not identically according to the typological nature of every description in the chapter, as was originally prophesied, since parts of this prophecy contained conditional elements which may have happened in that form had Israel remained faithful. All the wicked then become the recepients of the "Second Death" (it means they all died once before), and are forever eliminated along with Satan and his wicked angels.

Anyway, the earthly reign commences postmillennially.  But we will not find one single allusion to a reign on the earth during the millennium.  The scriptures are enormous that after the Second Advent, the earth will be one desolate wilderness, "for many days".
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 05:10:10 PM by Lysimachus »

Offline Lysimachus

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2013, 05:28:32 PM »
I encourage you to read this study in full, as it will answer just about all of the objections that are probably flashing through your mind right now. ;)

http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/1000years.htm

Offline Nats

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2013, 11:56:26 PM »
I'm very comfortable in what I presented. 

I don't object to others opinions they make without scriptural documentation.

Quote
At the Second Advent, Pre-millennially, Christ descends from heaven in the clouds, and all the saints are caught up to meet Him in the air.

You have to take it to the Greek and it must align with all of scripture.

What other context has the Holy Spirit through Paul used "clouds" to represent and also what other meaning can you put to "air"?



There you will find....

 
 

Offline Quasar

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Re: The Rapture & Second Coming - A Single Unified Event
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2013, 12:59:10 PM »
There will be a pre-trib rapture of the Church and a 1,000 year reign of Christ here on the earth, contrary to your belief system.

Explain to me how the ELECT  got into heaven as seen in Mt.24:31:  "And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel[, from one end of the heavens to the other."

How did the saints/Church get into heaven for the marriage of the Lamb to His Bride [Church]?

Why are we reading about the saints/Church seen returning with Christ from the wedding in heaven, in Rev.19:7-14, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, IN HIS ARMIES FROM HEAVEN?  If they had not been there by means of Jesus return for us, to take us to Him, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28? 

What did Paul mean when he wrote: "According to the Lords own word..., in 1 Thes.4:15?  [Reference to Jn.14:2-4 and 28!]

Where else do you think Christ is going to take us, when it culminates in the rapture of the Church, in the clouds of the air?  "After that, we who are still alive and are left WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR."  When Jesus will fulfill His promises in Jn.14:2-4 and 28, and take us to our Father in heaven, where we will be with Him forever!

Why do you think we find the precise timing of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church in 2 Thes.2:1-8 if the was none that are taught by Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul?

The theme of 2 Thes.2:1-8 is in the very first verse: "Concern-
ing the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND OUR BEING GATHERED TO HIM, we ask you, brothers,"

"Vs 2. "not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed as to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th Week of Dan.9:27/the seven year tribulation] has already come."

Vs 3. "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord] will not come UNTIL THE APOSTASIA/DISCESSIO [Greek and Latin terms meaning, DEPARTURE, from the Septuagent and Jerome's translation of it into the Vulgate] occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."  [The same person as all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation - AFTER THE DEPARTURE OF THE CHURCH]

Verse 3. is confirmed in verses 7-8: "...but the one who now holds it [lawlessness] back will continue to do so till he [The one body of Christ, His Holy Spirit dwelling Church members] IS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY."  Confirming the DEPARTURE in vs 3.

In vs 8: "And then the lawless one will be revealed...," confirming vs 3.

Explain why we see the Church departing/taken out of the way before the Day of the Lord occurs, triggered by the man of lawlessness/all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27/the beast out of the sea of Rev.13/the antichrist [All one and the same person] - WHEN ACCORDING TO YOUR VIEWS THAT REJECT THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH?

The next issue pertaining to the Millennial reign of Christ here on the earth:

THERE WILL BE TWO MORE TEMPLES BUILT IN ISRAEL

The tribulation temple:
Matthew 24:15 - When you see the “abomination of desolation,” spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place…
2 Thessalonians 2:4 - "...so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God"
Revelation 11:1 - "...Go and measure the temple of God and the alter..."

The Millennial temple:
 Ezekiel 43:7 - "...this is the place of my throne...This is where I will live among the Israelites forever."
 Ezekiel 43:27 - …your priests will your burnt offerings and peace offerings on the altar, and I will accept you, declares the Lord.
 Zechariah 6:12 - Here is the Man whose name is the Branch, and he will…build the temple of the Lord.

 At the present time there is no temple on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, the location of both the first and second Jewish Temples. Instead, two Muslim shrines, The Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque, stand on the Temple Mount. Meantime, the Jewish people to consider the Temple Mount to be the most sacred place for Jews in all the world. No wonder the Temple Mount is a political powder keg and must be part of any formula for peace in the Middle East!

 According to the Bible, a temple will once again stand on the Temple Mount. How and when the Temple Mount will be available for a future temple remains to be seen. Biblical prophecy “buffs” have proposed all kinds of potential scenarios for how all of this could take place—everything from earthquakes to explosives to the collapse of the Temple Mount platform!

 Some well-meaning Christians have felt that the biblical predictions of a future Temple should be spiritualized, saying that these prophecies refer to the Church or to the individual Christian. Indeed, 1 Corinthians 3:16 makes it quite clear that the Church, as the body of Christ, is the spiritual temple of the Holy Spirit. And in 1 Corinthians 6:19 we are taught that the physical body of every individual believer is to be honored and kept clean, because it is the temple of the Holy Spirit. But these wonderful New Testament truths do not alter the biblical predictions of a literal future Temple in Jerusalem.

 The question of a future Temple gets more complicated when we realize that the Bible teaches that two temples are yet to stand on the Temple Mount in the future. First will come a Tribulation Temple, followed by a Millennium Temple which will be built when the Lord returns and sets up His kingdom on this earth. Let's look at the Scriptures dealing with these two future temples.

 
Here: http://www.growingchristians.org/dfgc/future.html

 
Quasar
   
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 01:04:55 PM by Quasar »
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