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Author Topic: The Romans 11 Problem Concerning "All Israel"  (Read 2464 times)

Offline Lysimachus

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The Romans 11 Problem Concerning "All Israel"
« on: March 12, 2011, 07:46:29 PM »
The Romans 11 Problem Concerning "All Israel"
by Lysimachus

Dispensationalists constantly appeal to Romans 11, and especially verse 26, to prove that the national state of Israel plays a role in Bible prophecy, and will be "saved" as a distinct and separate entity separate from the Church.  However, we believe this theology is not based on a careful enough reading and study of Romans chapters 9-11.

The context of Romans 9-11 actually clearly teaches that the Olive Tree incorporates both Jews and Gentiles. The Olive Tree is ultimately Christ, and Christ is the embodiment of Israel. Those natural branches that were broken off because of unbelief are not promised unconditionally to be grafted in again, rather "IF they abide not still in unbelief" (Romans 11:23), they will be grafted back in again. So the promise is clearly conditional. In addition, it might be added that when a Jew accepts Christ, he is automatically grafted into the Tree. But there is only one tree, NOT two trees, one for Israel and one for the Church, as dispensational ideology would have us believe.

Paul clearly teaches that "all Israel" (vs. 26) will not be saved until (Gr. Achri, "as far as") the "fullness of the gentiles come in" (vs. 25). This proves that Israel is composed of Gentiles, and this is why verse 26 says "And SO all Israel shall be saved". The Greek word "so" is Houtos, and it means "in this manner." In other words, "In this manner, this is how all of Israel will be saved". Dispensationalism would have us believe that this word "so" means "then". But that's not what the verse says. The House of Israel gets filled up with Gentiles, and it is the Church that becomes the operator of the vineyard, Israel. Paul's words can only be understood in the light of the rest of scriptures, otherwise, if one interprets Romans 11 by itself, they are susceptible to come to faulty conclusions, and ultimately, those faulty conclusions will force one to conclude that Paul contradicts himself with Galatians 3:28,29 [cf. Isa. 41:8]; Galatians 4:22-31; Galatians 6:16; Ephesians 2:11-21; Ephesians 3:3-6; 1Corinthians 7:19; 1Corinthians 12:13; Romans 2:24-29; Romans 9:6-8; Philippians 3:3; 1Peter 2:5,9, and a host of other texts.

We have to allow Paul to interpret Paul, and let him define what the "Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 means.

Now let me be clear on something. God will protect and save any Jew who accepts Christ, regardless of where he lives. God loves the Jewish nation just as much as He loves France, England, Japan, China, Australia, Spain, or any other nation.

- French will be saved, but not "France"

- English will be saved, but not "England"

- Americans will be saved, but not "America"

- Chinese will be saved, but not "China"


The same it will be with the Jewish nation. Jews will be saved, but not "The National Jewish State of Israel". God's "Israel" is no longer defined by a piece of real-estate in the Middle East or ethnic lineage. But those Jews will be grafted into the Body of Christ, which is the Church, the remnant of Israel. And THIS is "how ALL Israel will be saved". In THIS manner.

God will protect all faithful Jews.

Now we are NOT to negate the fact that there will be a remnant of literal Jews in the end. I believe this with my whole heart. I believe there will be a literal remnant of Jewish people. While God's covenant is closed to the National Establishment of Israel, mercy is still open to Jews on an individual basis.

The problem, however, has to do with how dispensationalists are "conceptualizing" it. One must first remove Dispensational goggles to ascertain the following:

These Jewish people who repent will be grafted into the parent stock, which is Jesus Christ, the embodiment of His Church, since the Church represents the "body of Christ" (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 4:12). So this "remnant of Jews" is automatically, recognized in God's eyes, as "part of the Church"...not a separate body. If Christ recognized them as a separate body, this would contradict Ephesians 2:12-19; 3:6, which states unequivocally and unapologetically that the wall of partition has come crashing down at the cross, that "both have been made one", making "one new man", in "one body" and that the strangers have become "fellow citizens with the saints", and the Gentiles are now "fellowheirs", and of the "same body" in Christ Jesus.

The Church is the Church, no matter how many Jews make up of it, no matter how many remnant Jews in the end repent. Any Jew that accepts Christ is automatically grafted into the stock of Israel. It is now a spiritual concept, not a fleshly, literal concept based on ethnic lineage!

John the Baptist already taught that the "Axe was being laid at the ROOT of the tree" (Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9), and Jesus said that the "fig tree" would grow no more fruit on it from that point forward and "forever" (Matthew 21:19). The fig tree was another national emblem of Israel, along with the olive tree (Hosea 10:1; Jeremiah 24:5; Hosea 9:10; Joel 1:7,12). This is why Jesus said "Your house is left unto you desolate" (Matthew 23:38; Luke 13:35).

In Hosea 1:6, we see the termination of the literal, local, kingdom of Israel, was foretold by the meaning of the name "Lo-ruhamah." It reads: "And God said unto him, Call her name Lo-ruhamah, that is, not having obtained mercy: for I will have no more mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away" (Hosea 1:6). When the prophet's third child was born, God said "Call his name Lo-ammi, that is, not My people: for ye are not My people, and I will not be your God." (Verse 9). The rejection, and later, the restoration of the northern ten tribes are taught in the meanings of the names of the prophet's children. The prophecy of Hosea 1:10 and 11 is based on the meanings of these names. Paul, in Romans 9:22-28, presents the spiritual interpretation of Hosea's prophecy: through the Gentiles accepting Christ! "The numberer of the children of Israel shall be as the sands of the sea." (verse 27).
« Last Edit: May 20, 2016, 02:17:18 PM by Lysimachus »

Offline Quasar

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Re: The Romans 11 Problem Concerning "All Israel"
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2011, 11:59:05 PM »
Quote by Lysimachus:
Dispensationalists constantly appeal to Romans 11, and especially verse 26, to prove that the national state of Israel plays a role in Bible prophecy, and will be “saved” as a distinct and separate entity separate from the Church.  However, we believe this theology is not based on a careful enough reading and study of Romans chapters 9-11.

Quasar: FYI, all of us who believe the Bible and the Scriptures within, know that Israel is Israel, and it is not divided into two divisions as you and the false prophets who teach this error would have us believe.  Such as a national Israel and an Israel of God.  There is but one Israel, who as a nation rejected Jesus as their Messiah , whom God has temporarily turned His back on.

Through Jesus, He has turned to those who are not a nation, by those who did not seek God, according to Isa.65:1 and Rom.10:19-20 who are all believers in Jesus Christ, who form His one body, the Church, consisting of Jews and Gentiles alike, all who belong to Christ!  Not to Israel!  The difference: The Church = Believers.  Israel =   Non-believers!

The Israel of God in Gal.6:16 are Israelites/Jews who believed in Jesus before the Church existed during His first advent, who were not a part of Israel's rejection of Jesus as their Messiah.

The first advent of Christ was exclusively to Israel as He made crystal clear in Mt.15:24 and in Mt.10:5-6.  Because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39; Acts.1:9 and Acts 2:1-3.


L: The context of Romans 9-11 actually clearly teaches that the Olive Tree incorporates both Jews and Gentiles. The Olive Tree is ultimately Christ, and Christ is the embodiment of Israel. Those natural branches that were broken off because of unbelief are not promised unconditionally to be grafted in again, rather "IF they abide not still in unbelief" (Romans 11:23), they will be grafted back in again. So the promise is clearly conditional. In addition, it might be added that when a Jew accepts Christ, he is automatically grafted into the Tree. But there is only one tree, NOT two trees, one for Israel and one for the Church, as dispensational ideology would have us believe.

Q: The Olive root, of Rom.11:17 is the the vine of Jn.15:5, who is Jesus Christ, not Israsel!  Reference to Rom.9:11-12 is to Jacob and his older twin brother Esau, Paul referred to as all who descended from Israel are not Israelites.  Which has nothing whatever to do with the fiction that one of them is the "Israel of God," while the other is "national Israel!"

The brandches who were cut off, out of the natural tree [God's chosen], were never believers in Jesus to begin with!  But rather, all those who rejected Jesus as their Messiah!  All those who then became believers in Jesus, whether Jews or Gentiles, were grafted into the tree of God's chosen people!  Not into Israel.  Using the much simpler text in Jn.15:7, All Israel who rejected Jesus as their Messiah, bearing no fruit, are pruned off by God and thrown into the fire.  While all who belive in Jesus, whether Jews or Gentiles are grafted into His vine.


Quasar


"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Lysimachus

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Re: The Romans 11 Problem Concerning "All Israel"
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2011, 10:32:50 AM »
Quote by Lysimachus:
Dispensationalists constantly appeal to Romans 11, and especially verse 26, to prove that the national state of Israel plays a role in Bible prophecy, and will be "saved" as a distinct and separate entity separate from the Church.  However, we believe this theology is not based on a careful enough reading and study of Romans chapters 9-11.

Quasar: FYI, all of us who believe the Bible and the Scriptures within, know that Israel is Israel, and it is not divided into two divisions as you and the false prophets who teach this error would have us believe.  Such as a national Israel and an Israel of God.  There is but one Israel, who as a nation rejected Jesus as their Messiah , whom God has temporarily turned His back on.

We've never proposed Israel is divided into two divisions. Israel has always been one people--God's people.  Anyone who has accepted Christ, and wrestled with sin like Jacob, and overcomes sin, inherits this name "Israel" which represents one who overcomes sin--a Prince of God.  And it is interesting how you attribute me and those who understand the spiritual principles of Israel as "false prophets". We're the "false prophets", but not Tim Lahaye, Jerry B. Jenkins, Hal Lindsey, Thomas Ice, Jerry Falwell, John Hagee, Perry Stone, and the whole lot of them?  These guys who drive round in fancy cars and have multi-million dollar homes....these are God's servants, and not the "false prophets"? 

I beg to differ Quasar.  I consider these Dispensational babbling preachers the false prophets of Baal who dance all day praying for rain, and will never receive it.  The true Israel of God, which is realized in His Church will denounce these false prophets of Baal, who emanate false prophecies with their Dispensational rhetoric, as they dance around in circles on world-wide spiritual Mount Carmel--worshiping on the FALSE day of the week known as Sunday as they worship their Sun-god, facing toward the East (yes, the Middle East and the Sun absorbs their attention). These false prophets and the Baal-worshiping priesthood of False Protestantism refuses to keep all 10 of God's commandments, and REFUSES to honor God's Seventh-Day Sabbath which was made for ALL mankind, and not just the Jews (Mark 2:27; Isaiah 56).

Quote
Through Jesus, He has turned to those who are not a nation, by those who did not seek God, according to Isa.65:1 and Rom.10:19-20 who are all believers in Jesus Christ, who form His one body, the Church, consisting of Jews and Gentiles alike, all who belong to Christ!  Not to Israel!  The difference: The Church = Believers.  Israel =   Non-believers!

The Israel of God in Gal.6:16 are Israelites/Jews who believed in Jesus before the Church existed during His first advent, who were not a part of Israel's rejection of Jesus as their Messiah.

The first advent of Christ was exclusively to Israel as He made crystal clear in Mt.15:24 and in Mt.10:5-6.  Because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:39; Acts.1:9 and Acts 2:1-3. [/color]

These Israelites that were part of the Israel of God are not the same as the Jewish Nation.  This "Israel of God" was part of the Church, as Paul is writing to them in his letter to the Galatians.  When Christ comes back, it will be the same.  All Jews who are saved will be a part of the Church, not as a separate distinct body.  At their rejection of the Messiah, Israel ceased to be God's people as a nation. But the new nation were the Gentiles and Jews combined--the Church. This was the "body of Christ" in which all humanity might be saved. Jesus Christ is the true Israel of God. This can be proven exegetically as outlined in this little booklet entitled: Spiritual Israel -- written by two Jewish authors.

Quote
L: The context of Romans 9-11 actually clearly teaches that the Olive Tree incorporates both Jews and Gentiles. The Olive Tree is ultimately Christ, and Christ is the embodiment of Israel. Those natural branches that were broken off because of unbelief are not promised unconditionally to be grafted in again, rather "IF they abide not still in unbelief" (Romans 11:23), they will be grafted back in again. So the promise is clearly conditional. In addition, it might be added that when a Jew accepts Christ, he is automatically grafted into the Tree. But there is only one tree, NOT two trees, one for Israel and one for the Church, as dispensational ideology would have us believe.

Q: The Olive root, of Rom.11:17 is the the vine of Jn.15:5, who is Jesus Christ, not Israsel!  Reference to Rom.9:11-12 is to Jacob and his older twin brother Esau, Paul referred to as all who descended from Israel are not Israelites.  Which has nothing whatever to do with the fiction that one of them is the "Israel of God," while the other is "national Israel!"

The brandches who were cut off, out of the natural tree [God's chosen], were never believers in Jesus to begin with!  But rather, all those who rejected Jesus as their Messiah!  All those who then became believers in Jesus, whether Jews or Gentiles, were grafted into the tree of God's chosen people!  Not into Israel.  Using the much simpler text in Jn.15:7, All Israel who rejected Jesus as their Messiah, bearing no fruit, are pruned off by God and thrown into the fire.  While all who belive in Jesus, whether Jews or Gentiles are grafted into His vine.

Quasar


Now there are 2 classes of Jews:

1. A fleshly Jew (1 Cor 10:18; Rom 9:6)
2. A spiritual Jew (Rom 2:28,29; Gal 3:29; 4:28)

We have irrefutable proof from the Scriptures that if you are in Christ, you are a Spiritual Jew, as Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all Israel:

"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." (Luke 24:44)

Clearly then, all the promises concerning Israel by Moses and the prophets were fulfilled concerning Christ.

We must remember that Israel was a spiritual name given to a physical man named Jacob (Gen 32:28). It really means "Prince of God". A prince is the son of a king. Jesus is the Son of God. Jacob had 12 sons who later moved into Egypt. The descendants of these sons eventually multiplied into 12 tribes.

God told Pharaoh through Moses, "Israel is my son, even my first born...let my son go" (Exodus 4:22,23)

About 800 B.C., God spoke through Hosea saying "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt" (Hosea 11:1). Yet we know that by this time Israel had failed to live up to the spiritual meaning of its name.

About 800 years after Hosea's prophecy, we learn, "Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king" (Matthew 2:1). Herod felt threatened, so he sent soldiers who "slew all the children that were in Bethlehem." (v.16). Joseph was warned of the impending crisis in advance when "The angel of the Lord appeared to him, in a dream, saying, Arise and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word." (v. 13). So the family arose and "departed into Egypt" (v. 14)

Matthew writes that the child Jesus remained in Egypt "until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet saying, out of Egypt have I called my son" (Matthew 2:15). Notice that Matthew quotes Hosea 11:1--which originally referred to the NATION OF ISRAEL coming out of EGYPT--and actually declares it more perfectly "FULFILLED" in Jesus Christ! Please don't miss this important point that a prophecy in the Bible can have a dual application with both a literal and spiritual fulfillment.

The parallels are amazing. In the Old Testament, a man named Joseph has dreams and goes into Egypt to preserve his family (Gen 45:5). In the New Testament, another Joseph likewise had dreams and goes into Egypt to preserve his family (Matt 2:13)

When the young nation of Israel comes out of Egypt, God calls it "MY SON" (Ex 4:22). When Jesus comes out of Egypt, God says "Out of Egypt have I called my son" (Matt 2:15)

When Israel leaves Egypt, her people go through the Red Sea. The apostle Paul says they were "baptized unto Moses...in the sea" (1 Cor 10:2). Jesus is also baptized "TO FULFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS", and immediately afterward God proclaims Him "my beloved Son" (Matthew 3:15-17)

After the Red Sea crossing, the Israelite spend 40 years in the wilderness--led by the pillar of fire, God's Spirit. Immediately after baptism, Jesus is "led up of the Spirit into the wilderness" for 40 days! (Matthew 4:1,2)

At the end of the 40 years, Moses writes Deuteronomy. At the end of Jesus' 40 days, He resists Satan's temptations by quoting three scriptures--ALL from Deuteronomy!

In Psalms 80:8, God calls Israel a "vine" that He brought "out of Egypt." Jesus later declares, "I AM the TRUE VINE" (John 15:1).

In the Old Testament, the name "Israel” first applied to ONE MAN: Jacob--representing his spiritual victory over sin. Even so, in the New Testament, Jesus Christ is the Israel who came "OUT OF EGYPT." He is the one victorious man who overcame ALL SIN!

Now think this through logically. If Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of Israel, according to Matthew's defining of Hosea 11:1, and if Israel was the vine, and now Jesus is the "TRUE" vine, and "WE are BRANCHES" (John 15:5), doesn't that make us part of Israel?

Of course it does!

How is this so difficult to comprehend?

In Galatians 3:29, Paul tells the Church: "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Question: According to the Old Testament, who is the Seed of Abraham?

Answer: "But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend."(Isaiah 41:8 ) (See also 2 Chron. 20:7)

Thus we see that the "seed of Abraham" and "Israel" are one and the same, and if any gentile accepts Christ, they are automatically grafted into the House of Israel, which is spiritual Israel--the Church. It leaves one to wonder how these plain utterances escape the mind of a dispensational character, who indefatigably seeks to divide up God's people into two camps as "Israel" and the "church".  Such a doctrine is opposed to the unity of God's saints, and is to be rejected as "unscriptural". When God spoke through His messenger Paul in saying "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Gal. 3:28), He meant just what He said.

There is no doubt that Israel will come back to their land. But this will take place at the END of the Millennium, when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven. At the end of the Millennium, Jesus will come back with ALL His saints, and He will place His feet on the Mount of Olives, and fight against the wicked nations that were resurrected (Zechariah 14:3-5; Revelation 20) to face the "second death".

The Mount of Olives will be flattened like a great plain, and this is where the New Jerusalem will rest. Revelation 21:12 tells us that the New Jerusalem has "twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the "twelve tribes" of the children of Israel". The city also has twelve foundations, and in them the names of the "twelve apostles of the lamb" (verse 14).

Therefore, the New Jerusalem is the Home of Israel. Yet Hebrews 12:22-23 tells us that the New Jerusalem is the "assembly and Church of the firstborn" (take note that Israel was called the "firstborn" as well - see Ex. 4:22). This tells us that the New Jerusalem is the Home of the Church--which encompasses ALL of God's saints, including every single righteous ethnic Jew that ever lived). Revelation 14:1 tells us the 144,000 stand on "Mount Sion, having the Father's name written in their foreheads". Yet we see Paul telling the Church (which was made up of Jews) that they are come unto "mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God Judge of all, and to spirits of just men made perfect." (Hebrews 12:22-23)

In Exodus 4:22, God calls "Israel...my firstborn". Yet in Colossians 1:18 and Hebrews 12:23, the Church is called Christ's "firstborn".

Interesting, isn't it?

The prophecies to the Nation of Israel will take place, and they will receive their land. Ezekiel 38: 8, 11 and 14 describes the Israelites as a people who "dwell safely... dwelling without walls" These words "safely" and "without walls [of protection]" cannot apply to modern Israelis who now "dwell" amidst terrorists, experiencing frequent attacks from Islamic Jihad, and witness friends and loved ones being detonated apart by suicide bombers.

Many of the Old Testament prophecies to Israel are now realized beginning in the time of Jesus Christ, and will reach their acme (final fulfillment) at the End of the Millennium.

Bear in mind, the New Jerusalem will be the "home of the saints". It makes NO SENSE to have two cities. A city built by man, and a city built by God. It makes no sense to be having two Cities of Jerusalem on the earth.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 05:24:08 PM by Lysimachus »

Rockroller

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Re: The Romans 11 Problem Concerning "All Israel"
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2011, 08:33:18 PM »
Why don't you answer this question with the words of Jesus?  Matthew 21:43 shows that what Paul wrote was not correct.  Neither was the story about the olive tree.  Please compare that story with the one found in John 15 and you will see that a branch cut off is burned up!  There is NO such thing as anyone being grafted back in!

Paul was clearly wrong as it appears that what is said about him in Rev. 2:2 is correct.  There is not such thing as anyone being adopted into the family of God.  Jesus was clear about how this works in John 3.

Offline Lysimachus

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Re: The Romans 11 Problem Concerning "All Israel"
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2011, 08:49:14 PM »
Rockerroller,

It is of no interest of me, whatsoever, to even consider entertaining the thought that Paul was wrong. His writings were inspired.  To conclude that Paul's writings, along with Luke's and 2 Peter's were false, it would only reveal a very weak and incompetent God who can't even take care of His own Bible.

If He could preserve the Sabbath, He can preserve His Bible.  He would not let the four-corners of the world to be reached with a corrupted Bible. God would have made sure that these books would have been left out of the Canon, just like He was so good at leaving out many of the Psuedepigraphal and Apocryphal myths.  God does not make mistakes.  He allowed the writings of Paul, Luke, and 2 Peter and the rest of the New Testament books to be included in the Canon because He knew they were inspired.  Although men were in charge, unbeknownst to them, God was guiding them which books to leave out and which ones to include.  I do not worship a weak God who can't protect His own Bible. 

So I'm sorry, I will not even go there.  So trying to argue this is useless.  The controversy here is between Adventism with the whole Bible vs. Dispensationalism and Catholicism.  To choose any other side is to get caught in the crossfire. And I guarantee that getting caught in the crossfire won't be pretty.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2011, 08:51:49 PM by Lysimachus »

Rockroller

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Re: The Romans 11 Problem Concerning "All Israel"
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2011, 01:26:33 AM »
Then why didn't your 'God' refuse to allow Satan to be in a snake and enter into the Garden of Eden?  Huh? 

Look Marcus S., I don't want to argue either but the facts speak for themselves and I really don't mind if you don't want to follow and practice the truth as what Jesus said in John 3:21.  If you don't want to treat the issue justly, then just let it be said that you, by tacit agreement, agree that the words of Jesus found in Matthew 21:43 do not agree with what Paul wrote in Romans 11.  Fair enough!


Offline John Oscar

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Re: The Romans 11 Problem Concerning "All Israel"
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2011, 01:39:56 AM »
Is this guy and bondservant "red letter Christians" (not really Christians, but more of a cult) or something.  I've never seen such a stubborn refusal to see the truth except from that group...
John O


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Re: The Romans 11 Problem Concerning "All Israel"
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2011, 02:08:42 AM »
Looking up the word "cult" it is a group of people who follow after someone other than God and the words and teachings of Jesus Christ.  I am a true follower of Jesus Christ.  If you have anything personal to say to me about this being a problem then please speak your peace now.

I don't have a problem with who you want to worship or follow after as long as you can provide evidence for your belief and opinions.  I appoligize for you being so upset with someone pointing out the difference between what Jesus said and taught and what Paul said and taught.  Was not this the "ISSUE" (problem) with this thread?  Please, lets not get personally here!  And don't put me in one of your boxes either!  I refuse to fit it anyone's box!  And NO, I am not a 'red letter' person, as there are many 'red letters' found in the red letter bibles where Jesus NEVER said those things.  Those red letters are just what a human's mind came up with, so give it up.

Offline Lysimachus

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Re: The Romans 11 Problem Concerning "All Israel"
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2011, 12:42:55 PM »
Look Rockroller,

If you want to discuss the issue of whether Paul was inspired or not, you are always welcome to open up another thread. This is not the place to be discussing it.  The subject here has to do with differences between Dispensational and Covenant theology.  I by no means an expert at countering this new heresy (that Paul was un-inspired, along with Luke, etc.). But so far from what I've read, John317 at ClubAdventist.com has successfully refuted all your arguments.  I have seen you stumble for words too many times when he puts you in a corner, and shows how you end up contradicting yourself.  Perhaps it's not you he's debating, maybe it's one of your other 3 friends. Either way, you're all cut from the same cloth.  I'm not interested in diverting my mind away from the real controversies in this world. 

One more time, if you would like to discuss Paul and Luke's in relation to whether their books are inspired or not, be my guest and start a new thread. No promises I'll even have time to respond. But like I said, John317 has satisfactorily answered all my questions concerning your objections.

~Lysimachus

Offline John Oscar

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Re: The Romans 11 Problem Concerning "All Israel"
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2011, 04:27:37 PM »
As the most active admin, I agree with Lysinachus in that if you want to debate the canonicity of certian books/authors of the bible, start another thread please.
John O


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Re: The Romans 11 Problem Concerning "All Israel"
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2011, 11:49:58 PM »
Well excuuuuse meeeee!  And I had the unfortunate idea that this thread was about the PROBLEM found in Romans 11 Concerning "All Israel".  Well, I'll be a sonofgun.  Did I say that Paul was not inspired--I don't think so, did I?  Clearly he was, but the question is 'by who'?  You guys brought this up, I surely didn't! I could say something about how loving and kind you guys are, but why?

Do you simply agree that there is a problem or not with all of Israel being saved--regardless of what Jesus said?

Do you agree that there is also the problem of God making the Jews jealous by causing them to be transgressors of the law as found in Rom. 11:11? And what about the problem of making the Jews to be transgressors so that salvation should come to the Gentiles?  Was not it God who wanted Israel to be a light and example to the whole world?  What's with this?

 

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The Crusader

February 26, 2014, 04:30:18 PM
Religious Lie: "God only paid for sins until the next time you sin."
 

The Crusader

December 23, 2013, 09:38:53 AM
JUST A THINK ABOUT IT: Will you embrace the full meaning of Christmas? Jesus didn't die just so you could go to heaven. He came to give you life - His life; an abundant life free from guilt, condemnation, and slavery to both sins and religion. He came to bring a grace revolution to the world and tha

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