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Author Topic: 10 Commandments  (Read 2226 times)

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10 Commandments
« on: December 22, 2011, 09:43:22 AM »
From the outset, please let me say that I believe that the Old Covenant is replaced by the New Covenant. However, I'm going to play devil's advocate and am going to string the following question in an unusual way.  :o

The book of Deuteronomy says that the 10 commandments are the Old Covenant:

And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. (Deut. 4:12-13)

Can you provide a scripture that shows that the Old Covenant is abolished and is replaced by the New Covenant?
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Quasar

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Re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2012, 11:57:35 AM »
First of all, the Law was given to Israel, not to the Gentiles.  As believers in Jesus Christ, each of us as members of His one body become heirs of not only all the promises/covenants God made to Israel, but also of Jesus fulfilling the Law for us, according to Eph.1:13-14 and Mt.5:17-18.

In Rom.10:4, Paul wrote that Christ is the end of the Law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.  Which was addressed above, with Jesus fulfilling the Law for us - but does not mean He abolished it.

In Heb.8:13, reference is made to the new covenant making the old one "obsolete."  But here again, the new covenant does not abolish the old covenant as Jesus stated in Mt.5:18, until "everything is accomplished."

With that having been said, the old covenant will not be abolished until after Jesus Millennial reign of the reestablished kingdom of Israel is over.  Because the sacrificial system will be renewed, according to Ez.40-48 and Zech.14.

Not because the work of Christ was not completely finished for the reconciliation of man to God, but to fulfill what God intended in the first place.  For His chosen people Israel to teach the Gentiles the ways of God.  There will be at least 2.3 billion people on the earth at the end of the seven year tribulation who will populate the Millennial kingdom of Christ, according to Zech.13:8.  There is now seven billion people on the earth.  Only one third will survive the tribulation.

All of those who participate in the first resurrection will be made priests of God and of Christ according to Rev.20:6, who will bring millions to the Lord during the 1,000 years they will be ruling with Christ.

When that scenario is finished, the Law will be abolished.


Quasar
« Last Edit: March 28, 2012, 12:00:16 PM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Overaged

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Re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2012, 09:28:13 AM »
From the outset, please let me say that I believe that the Old Covenant is replaced by the New Covenant. However, I'm going to play devil's advocate and am going to string the following question in an unusual way.  :o

The book of Deuteronomy says that the 10 commandments are the Old Covenant:

And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice. And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. (Deut. 4:12-13)

Can you provide a scripture that shows that the Old Covenant is abolished and is replaced by the New Covenant?
May I ask what your definition of, or understanding of "Covenant" is? (old or new)
I will not recoil before the torments that are prepared for me by my enemies and false witnesses, who will one day have to render an account of their impostures before the great God, whom nothing can deceive.”  {GC88 113.1}

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Re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2012, 12:23:27 PM »
May I ask what your definition of, or understanding of "Covenant" is? (old or new)

Old Covenant:
"And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone" (Deuteronomy 4:13).

"There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt. And I have set there a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of the LORD, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt" (1 Kings 8:9,21).

Jesus said, "I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it" (Matthew 5:17). Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle of the law and it was abolished when he rose from the dead and those who follow Him are now subject to the "law of liberty" which is the new covenant.

New Covenant:
"God hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (2 Cor 3:6).

"So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty” (James 2:12).

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not" (1 Cor 10:23).

"Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart" (2 Cor. 3:3).

The new covenant believes in the 10 commandments in principle, to include the sabbath issue, but it is not relegated strictly to Saturday worship e.g. worshipping God on Sunday is not the mark of the beast.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 02:16:37 PM by me again »
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Overaged

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Re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2012, 09:08:25 PM »

The new covenant believes in the 10 commandments in principle, to include the sabbath issue, but it is not relegated strictly to Saturday worship e.g. worshipping God on Sunday is not the mark of the beast.
Thank you for your reply! I appreciate it!

Your reply did create some more questions in my mind, so if you will bear with me; I would like to ask a few more.

Just so you know where I am coming from, although I do observe the seventh-day Sabbath, I honestly was not even thinking about that when I posed my question to you about the word "covenant."

1/  I have wondered about responses like your's because I like to do word studies, in addition to other ways and means of studying the Bible.  When I think of the word "covenant;" even before other study, I think of an agreement. Does that sound sensible, so far?

Word Web Dictionary gives the following two contexts of meaning for the word "covenant:"

Quote
a) A signed written agreement between two or more parties (nations) to perform some action
b) (Bible) an agreement between God and his people in which God makes certain promises and requires certain behavior from them in return

So now we can consider one of your Bible text references:

Quote
Deu 4:13  He declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to observe—the Ten Commandments that he wrote on two stone tablets.

We can at this point now say that this text shows an agreement about something between God and His people. It was an agreement about the ten commandments, between God and His people, and I don't see how it could be something which was just addressing  the ten commandments, it is more likely it was addressing an agreement re same.

I think that the most important covenant between God and His people, originated between God and Abraham. (see Gen 15:18). It was confirmed by Moses, (Exodus 24:7-8, 34:27, Deut 5:2, and then the covenant (agreement) was amended and renewed after the exile , through the intervention of the prophets. (Isa 42:6, 49:8 ), and then finally through the Messiah, (Mal 3:1, Jer 31:33).

This covenant has always been a treaty, an alliance of friendship, a pledge, an obligation between a Monarch and his subjects; a constitution, if you will. This covenant was much like a contract, which was accompanied by signs, sacrifices, and a solemn oath which sealed (ratified) the covenant of the relationship with promises of blessings for obedience, and curses for disobedience.

The old and new covenants, therefore, were simply two separate agreements regarding the ten commandments; but the covenant, since a covenant is an agreement about something, was simply two different types of agreements regarding the ten commandments, as a whole. There is no textual evidence to prove that  "covenant" means the Ten commandments themselves, but only an agreement between God and His people, regarding them.

LOL, I don't want to make this post too long, so in the next post, I will detail the two different covenants, or agreements about the ten commandments, between God and His people.

2/ In the texts you gave for the new covenant, I don't see anything in them that actually mentions "covenant" as do the OT ones you gave us.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 09:14:38 PM by Castaway »
I will not recoil before the torments that are prepared for me by my enemies and false witnesses, who will one day have to render an account of their impostures before the great God, whom nothing can deceive.”  {GC88 113.1}

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Offline Overaged

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Re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2012, 12:31:27 AM »
The CEV of the Bible makes it a lot clearer:

Deu 4:13  The LORD said he was making an agreement with you, and he told you that your part of the agreement is to obey the Ten Commandments. Then the LORD wrote these Commandments on two flat stones.

I will not recoil before the torments that are prepared for me by my enemies and false witnesses, who will one day have to render an account of their impostures before the great God, whom nothing can deceive.”  {GC88 113.1}

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Re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2012, 01:10:37 PM »
Quote
In the texts you gave for the new covenant, I don't see anything in them that actually mentions "covenant" as do the OT ones you gave us.

What about this one in three different translations:

KJV: "God hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" (2 Cor 3:6).

NIV: "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

AMP: "[It is He] Who has qualified us [making us to be fit and worthy and sufficient] as ministers and dispensers of a new covenant [of salvation through Christ], not [ministers] of the letter (of legally written code) but of the Spirit; for the code [of the Law] kills, but the [Holy] Spirit makes alive."

Quote
We can at this point now say that this text shows an agreement about something between God and His people. It was an agreement about the ten commandments, between God and His people, and I don't see how it could be something which was just addressing  the ten commandments, it is more likely it was addressing an agreement re same.

Specifically, God made a covenant with the Jews:

"There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt. And I have set there a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of the LORD, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt" (1 Kings 8:9,21).

The term "replacement theology" keeps coming to mind, where some propose that Christians have replaced Jews and are now subject to the 10 commandments, as described in the old testament. However, the Jews who did not convert to Christ remain in their old covenant 10 commandment theology, while those who did convert to Christ are now subject to the "law of liberty," which accepts (in principle) the 10 commandments, but not the requirement to attend church on Saturday, which is the letter of the law. There is a legalistic theology that claims that those who worship on Sunday instead of Saturday have received the mark of the beast. The original sabbath command was for the Jews to stay in their tents on the Saturday sabbath and not to congregate at a central location, so to obey the strict letter of the law, Saturday sabbath keepers must stay in their homes instead of traveling to a central location for worship. A scripture about staying in their tents on the Saturday sabbath is available on request.  :o

In principle, the new testament believes in the 10 commandments (the spirit of the law), but the old testament's 10 commandments kills (the letter of the law). I believe that the apostles began gathering on Sunday to avoid the divisive conflicts with the Jews in their synagogues on Saturday. The Jews were bound by the Saturday sabbath (letter of the law) while the apostles were not (Spirit of the law on Sunday, resurrection day and freedom from the law).

It is impossible to break free from the letter of the law, regarding the Saturday sabbath issue, but remember: the law kills. What is the "law of liberty" written about in James?

"So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty” (James 2:12).

Even the disciples had great difficulty breaking away from the letter of the law after the resurrection of Jesus. As an example, Peter wanted to keep circumcision, but Paul had to set the original disciples straight.

The Saturday sabbath offered the Jews rest, but it was just a foreshadowing of the true rest that we now have in Jesus' salvation. The original sabbath command was for the Jews to stay in their tents and not to travel to a congregational facility, so to adequately keep the Saturday sabbath, we would have to stay in our homes on Saturday instead of going to church.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 03:01:50 PM by me again »
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Overaged

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Re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2012, 11:07:46 PM »
Well; I agree with you that it is wrong to say people who now worship on Sunday, "have received the mark of the beast." And that certainly would not be the correct teachings of the Adventist church. I am aware there are some who have fallen for that error, but as for the official belief, it does not read like that.

You talked a lot about the seventh-day Sabbath in your post, for some reason. I was trying to focus on another aspect of the text/s in question. I am aware of the "New Testament" texts that you have just supplied, but what I wanted to focus on was the Bible's use of the word "covenant."

Clearly, a covenant is an agreement about something?  Yes? Or no?  What think ye?  :)
I will not recoil before the torments that are prepared for me by my enemies and false witnesses, who will one day have to render an account of their impostures before the great God, whom nothing can deceive.”  {GC88 113.1}

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Re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2012, 11:30:31 PM »
You talked a lot about the seventh-day Sabbath in your post, for some reason. I was trying to focus on another aspect of the text/s in question.

My apologies, but it always comes back to the sabbath day (that's the sticking point, generally). No worries though. :)

I am aware of the "New Testament" texts that you have just supplied, but what I wanted to focus on was the Bible's use of the word "covenant."

Clearly, a covenant is an agreement about something?  Yes? Or no?  What think ye?  :)

Yes, it is an agreement about something. I won't try to second guess you this time. LOL  :o
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Overaged

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Re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2012, 01:16:43 AM »
My apologies, but it always comes back to the sabbath day (that's the sticking point, generally). No worries though. :)

Yes, it is an agreement about something. I won't try to second guess you this time. LOL  :o
LOL, you can "second guess me" all you want to. You do it very nicely.  :)   Long as we can still "reason together..."  LOL, but I have to leave you hanging. (again). I am out of time for tonight. I will look forward to coming back to this and continuing in a day or 2. See you soon.  8)
I will not recoil before the torments that are prepared for me by my enemies and false witnesses, who will one day have to render an account of their impostures before the great God, whom nothing can deceive.”  {GC88 113.1}

- Overaged

Offline rstrats

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Re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2012, 05:47:45 PM »
me again,

re: “ The original sabbath command was for the Jews to stay in their tents on the Saturday sabbath and not to congregate at a central location, so to obey the strict letter of the law, Saturday sabbath keepers must stay in their homes instead of traveling to a central location for worship.”




If that was the original intention, it had changed by Leviticus 23:2 and 3.   

Leviticus 23:2 and 3 call the Sabbath a “holy convocation”.   And what is a convocation?  Webster’s calls it “a group of people called together by summons”. So the Sabbath is not just a day to cease one’s regular work but is also to be a day to gather together in a holy assembly.   

Offline rstrats

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Re: 10 Commandments
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2012, 05:52:02 PM »
Castaway,

re: “I am out of time for tonight. I will look forward to coming back to this and continuing in a day or 2.”

OK, will await your continuing discussion. 

 

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