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Author Topic: Who and what are the demons?  (Read 8706 times)

Offline me again

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Re: Who and what are the demons?
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2012, 08:54:01 AM »
A few questions for those who believe that angels are the "Sons of God" spoken of in Genesis 6-

Do angels have gender, including all the physical attributes of that gender?

Are there female angels?

If both the above are no (which biblically they are), then how did a genderless spiritual being mate with a human women?  Are you suggesting they can somehow morph into fully functional human with the ability to reproduce, and if so, where is your proof of that?

If for a moment we assume the above is true, then who bestowed the spirit into these creations?  The bible is clear that the spirit of a man comes from God Himself...

As you know, Jesus said that angels don't marry. Subsequently, if angels did procreate by having sex with mortal women, it would be a sin and God would have to lock them up in hell to prevent them from doing it again. Some people believe that the Apostle Peter referred to this:

2 Peter 4-5
"...God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly."

The bible says that there were giants in the pre-flood earth in Noah's day. Just for pleasure, do a Google search on "giant humans" and surf it:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&cp=10&gs_id=41&xhr=t&q=giant+humans&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=giant+huma&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=e45844b0989f2f60

"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Quasar

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Re: Who and what are the demons?
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2012, 09:31:08 AM »
As you know, Jesus said that angels don't marry. Subsequently, if angels did procreate by having sex with mortal women, it would be a sin and God would have to lock them up in hell to prevent them from doing it again. Some people believe that the Apostle Peter referred to this:

2 Peter 4-5
"...God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly."

The bible says that there were giants in the pre-flood earth in Noah's day. Just for pleasure, do a Google search on "giant humans" and surf it:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&cp=10&gs_id=41&xhr=t&q=giant+humans&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=giant+huma&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=e45844b0989f2f60



Well said me again!  And after the flood as well.  The following excerpt tells a little bit about it:

Og, the king of Bashan, conquered by Moses and the Israelites on their entrance into the Promised Land, was one of the giants. "For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits [approximately 14 feet!] was the length thereof, and four cubits [6 feet] the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man [i.e., a normal man -- the normal cubit measured 18 inches]" (Deut.3:11). Bashan, the land of Og, was called "the land of giants"(v.13; see also Josh.12:4, 13:12). The valley of Hinnom, the refuse dump for Jerusalem, a type of the final Gehenna fire, lay eastward of the "valley of the giants" (Josh.15:8; 18:16). Joshua 17:15 mentions the "Rephaim," another branch of the "giants." These dwelt in the region near Sodom and Gomorrah in the time of Abraham (Gen.14:5; 15:20; see also II Sam.5:18,22; 23:13).

In an ancient text of the Jews, we read an astonishing description of some of these gigantic Amorites whom the Israelites conquered. In Buber's Tanhuma, Devarim 7, the text tells us of a Rabbi Johnanan ben Zakkai's encounter with the Roman Emperor Hadrian. This event occurred in about A.D. 135, soon after the Roman victory in the Bar Kochba war, when the Jews rebelled against the Romans. The text reads:

"The wicked emperor Hadrian, who conquered Jerusalem, boasted, 'I have conquered Jerusalem with great power.' Rabbi Johanan ben Zakkai said to him, 'Do not boast. Had it not been the will of Heaven, you would not have conquered it.' Rabbi Johanan then took Hadrian into a cave and showed him the bodies of Amorites who were buried there. One of them measured eighteen cubits [approximately 30 feet] in height. He said, 'When we were deserving, such men were defeated by us, but now, because of our sins, you have defeated us'" (quoted in Judaism, edited by Arthur Hertzberg, p.155-156, George Braziller, New York: 1962).

Thirty feet tall! The bones of these men were still in existence during the time of Josephus, the Jewish historian of the first century!

From the following source:
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/giants2.htm

The spirits of these Nephilim/giants are the hybrid demons/evil spirits Jesus dealt with during His ministry, previously addressed in my OP.


Quasar
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 09:42:43 AM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Who and what are the demons?
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2012, 01:44:04 PM »
Didn't answer any of my questions though  ;)
John O


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Re: Who and what are the demons?
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2012, 07:54:23 PM »
Didn't answer any of my questions though  ;)

I'll try.  :o

Do angels have gender, including all the physical attributes of that gender?

If angels were able to procreate, then yes, they have genitalia. If angels can't procreate, then no, they have no genitalia.


Are there female angels?

Good question!  :o


If both the above are no (which biblically they are), then how did a genderless spiritual being mate with a human women?  Are you suggesting they can somehow morph into fully functional human with the ability to reproduce, and if so, where is your proof of that?

I do not know with certitude that some of the fallen angels mated with human women, but if they did, then yes, they are anatomically equipped.


If for a moment we assume the above is true, then who bestowed the spirit into these creations?  The bible is clear that the spirit of a man comes from God Himself...

God created the angels first. The creation of man came later.

"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Quasar

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Re: Who and what are the demons?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2012, 12:10:21 AM »
Didn't answer any of my questions though  ;)


Q:  IMO: First off, nowhere in the Bible do we find angels with any other gender except male, when either referred to or sent to the earth as messengers for God.  However, in their spiritual state as part of the heavenly host, in an eternal environment, they have no gender at all.  Which would account for why Jesus said what He did in Mt.22:30 about angels neither marrying nor given in marriage.

However, in the second place, when they appear in human male form, as two of them did in Gen.18 with the Lord [A theophany of the pre-incarnated Jesus], they ate and slept and would of necessity have other needs, as do all human beings.  Also with the two disciples of Christ on the road to Emmaus, in Lk.24, where Jesus in His glorified spiritual, but visible body at the time, ate with them.  As well as the meal he had with His disciples when He appeared to them in Lk.24.  As well to feeling the wounds He suffered at His crucifixion.  Which is substantial evidence angels had pro-creative powers when materialized as men here on the earth. 

There are many other examples such as Jos.5:13-15 and all other theophanies of the pre-incarnate Jesus, as well as where the angels of the Lord appeared in the Scriptures.

From:

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/giants2.htm

"Some insist that these "sons of God" in Genesis who married the "daughters of men" are nothing more than the line of Seth, the third son of Adam, and that the daughters of men refers to the women born to the line of Cain. This is the view of the Catholic Church, Augustine, Martin Luther, and other conventional theologians of mainstream Christianity. This makes no sense whatsoever.

Only by a divine act of specific creation can any creature be called a "son of God." That which is born of flesh is flesh. As human beings, we all have fleshly parents. Adam only was the exception, being made by the hand of God -- therefore he was a son of God (Luke 3:38), by creation. Those of us who are also "in Christ," and have received His implanted Holy Spirit, are also "sons of God" in the spiritual sense (II Cor.5:17; Eph.2:10). We, too, can be called "sons of God" (Rom.8:14-15; I John 3:1).

In the Old Testament, however, the term "sons of God" refers to angels (see Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; Psa.29:1; 89:6; Dan.3:25). Therefore, we have no authority to take the expression in Genesis 6:2 and to apply it in any other way. Furthermore, the Septuagint version of the Old Testament Scriptures, plainly translates the term in Genesis 6:3 as "angels of God" (footnote, page 7, Alexandrian text).

Those who attempt to explain this verse as the sons of Seth marrying the daughters of Cain simply are unable to believe that angels could cohabit with humankind. However, as we will see later, there is no reason Scripturally why this couldn't have happened!"


Quasar

 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 12:13:28 AM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Who and what are the demons?
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2012, 06:17:42 AM »
My question about God giving spirits was referring to the new creation of an angel/human hybrid.  Of course, if only some of the fallen angels procreated with human women, then the others could have possessed the new creations...(thinking out loud)

My point is this- do angels have the inherant ability to change their nature or into other life forms at will?  We know they can make themselves unseen, or seen as different people, but the bible doesn't really speak of them changing into different life forms.  Appearance is one thing- I can put on a dog costume and walk around on all fours, but I can't actually physically change into a dog.

Another part of my problem with believing angels procreated with humans is this- where was God during all this?  Was He just blithly sitting on His throne shaking His head at yet another part of His creation that felt like doing what they wished?

I don't think so....The scripture records that God has the heavenly host on a very short leash as far as sinful practices.

Just some thoughts to further muddy the waters.  I do have a tendancy to overthink things ;)
John O


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Re: Who and what are the demons?
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2012, 08:52:42 AM »
My question about God giving spirits was referring to the new creation of an angel/human hybrid. 

Since God didn't create the spirits of the offspring (between angels and women), they are not eligible for the salvation that comes through the blood of Jesus, so instead of going to heaven or hell (when they died), they instead roam the earth as demons, according to the theory that is being espoused. There is reportedly a difference between demons and fallen angels e.g. demons are reportedly the offspring of fallen angels when they interbred with women.

Another part of my problem with believing angels procreated with humans is this- where was God during all this? 

God watched the angels sin from His throne -- and when it was over, he destroyed the entire earth because the human bloodline for His yet-to-be-born Messiah was contaminated from interbreeding between angels and women, except for the bloodline of Noah. When the bible says that Noah was "perfect," it was referring to his uncontaminated bloodline and not to his behavior.

God also locked up the angels who sinned sexually with women until judgement day:

2 Peter 4-5
"...God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly."

The book of Enoch isn't canonical, according to the Catholic and Protestant Churches, but it still makes reference to the fallen angels who conspired to do this. It even names them.  :o
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 08:58:03 AM by me again »
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Quasar

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Re: Who and what are the demons?
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2012, 08:56:21 AM »
From:

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/giants2.htm

Comes the following portion:

"What Really Happened

Jude says these wicked angels left their own "habitation" (Jude 6). The word is oiketerion in Greek, and is also used in II Corinthians 5:2 -- "For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven." Says Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of this word, it means, "habitation, house." Thus these angels left their own spirit body, and took on human form! That is how they accomplished this despicable, rebellious act of lust and wanton disregard for the laws of God. The result? Tragedy beyond measure. Wickedness supreme. Murder, lawlessness, and mayhem unparalleled in the history of the entire Universe!

The progeny of these rebellious angels were called "giants" -- Nephilim in the Hebrew. These were monsters of iniquity, and being superhuman in size and character had to be destroyed once and for all. This grievous intermarriage was an insidious attempt by Satan the devil to prevent the coming of the promised "Seed" of the woman to redeem the human race. He thought that he would pervert and corrupt the blood-line of human beings, so that the Messiah could not be born! It was also an abortive attempt to "play God" on the part of Satan and his fallen angels -- to duplicate and copy God 's plan of procreation!

Interestingly, these "half-breeds" of angels and women -- these offspring of the union of wicked angels and women -- since they are not truly "human" in the full sense of the word, have no place in the plan of God, and will not be in the resurrection. They will not be resurrected from the grave in the time to come of the great Judgment.

The very name, Rephaim, in the Hebrew comes from the root rapha which means not only "giant," but also "lax," that is, "ghost," "as dead," "dead, deceased." Says Gesenius Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, "flaccid, feeble, weak, only in plural." This authority states, "According to the opinions of the ancient Hebrews, void of blood and animal life, therefore weak and languid like a sick person." Isaiah 26:14 speaks of them, but their name is translated "deceased." Notice! "They are dead, they are deceased [Rephaim], they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish." Isn't it interesting to note that many of the so-called "aliens" which have been "seen" by various people, when described, all appear rather weak, flaccid, limp, and feeble in appearance, lacking energy and vitality?"


IMO, when angels have the power to take on human form, they are capable of anything a human being can do, if not more.  Such as Jesus Himself after His resurrection, as well as what is written about the angels in Gen.18-19.

Since procreation was one of God's original perpetual plans, the union between  the sons of God and the daughters of men had to be the same part of His creation has been from the time of Adam and Eve.  Or He would not have been faced with the issue of having to destroy them.  Nothing can be created by anything or anyone except by God.

As me again correctly stated, the issue from the union between the sons of God and the daughters of men were the horrible Nephilim/giants; when they died, their spirit/souls were relegated to the earth until the GWT judgement.  Who try to find other bodies to live in, whether human or animal, as seen from Mt.8:29-32.


Quasar

« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 08:58:29 AM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

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Re: Who and what are the demons?
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2012, 09:59:47 AM »
The very name, Rephaim, in the Hebrew comes from the root rapha which means not only "giant," but also "lax," that is, "ghost," "as dead," "dead, deceased." Says Gesenius Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, "flaccid, feeble, weak, only in plural." This authority states, "According to the opinions of the ancient Hebrews, void of blood and animal life, therefore weak and languid like a sick person." Isaiah 26:14 speaks of them, but their name is translated "deceased." Notice! "They are dead, they are deceased [Rephaim], they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish." Isn't it interesting to note that many of the so-called "aliens" which have been "seen" by various people, when described, all appear rather weak, flaccid, limp, and feeble in appearance, lacking energy and vitality?"

Fascinating verse:

Isiah 26:14
They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

They will not take part in any resurrection.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Quasar

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Re: Who and what are the demons?
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2012, 11:43:03 AM »
Fascinating verse:

Isiah 26:14
They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

They will not take part in any resurrection.


For sure!  Or it will go right by you unless you are aware of what the prophet was talking about.


Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Who and what are the demons?
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2012, 02:26:47 PM »
From:

Since procreation was one of God's original perpetual plans, the union between  the sons of God and the daughters of men had to be the same part of His creation has been from the time of Adam and Eve.  Or He would not have been faced with the issue of having to destroy them.  Nothing can be created by anything or anyone except by God.
Quasar

Then God created the angels with the ability to reproduce, but then said no?  The angels "are not given in marriage" according to Jesus Himself, and marriage is the only way sentient beings can reproduce under God's economy.  There is a huge logical gap here that I'm not able to reconcile...
John O


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Re: Who and what are the demons?
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2012, 03:49:35 PM »
Then God created the angels with the ability to reproduce, but then said no?  The angels "are not given in marriage" according to Jesus Himself, and marriage is the only way sentient beings can reproduce under God's economy.  There is a huge logical gap here that I'm not able to reconcile...

I hate to play a switcheroo on words, but if I don't give my daughter in marriage, is she still capable of reproduction?  :o
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Who and what are the demons?
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2012, 08:22:52 PM »
I hate to play a switcheroo on words, but if I don't give my daughter in marriage, is she still capable of reproduction?  :o

The difference is your daughter, as a human being, is made for reproduction where angels were not.  She has a choice whether or not to exercise that right.  Angels, being asexual, do not have a choice. 

The only way around that is to assume that angels, as part of their created nature, have the ability to change form (not just appear in the likeness of) into humans.  Unfortunately, scripture is silent about that, so it's just conjecture.
John O


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Re: Who and what are the demons?
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2012, 08:43:24 AM »
The difference is your daughter, as a human being, is made for reproduction where angels were not.

If your interpretation of the scripture is correct, then your statement (above) is also correct. :)

This is not one of those theories that I would argue vehemently for. I happen to believe it, but I also acknowledge that I could be wrong.  :o
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

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Re: Who and what are the demons?
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2012, 10:02:55 AM »
The logical consideration about angel pro-creative ability centers on those God sent to the earth to appear as human men.  A similar scenario to that of the resurrected Jesus in His glorified body.

In such instances the Scriptures reveal they were able to eat and to be felt as solid material, as found in Gen.18; Lk.24 and in Jn.20.  By the same token, IMO they were all able to be sexually active as well - while on earth as human men, which is a necessary function to sustain human life.

However, as spiritual angels of the heavenly host, this function in an eternal society, such as they were created to be, sexual capability would not be a necessity to sustain their fixed number.


Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

 

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