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Author Topic: Should we pray in tongues?  (Read 4715 times)

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Should we pray in tongues?
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2012, 06:52:58 AM »
Quasar,
I looked again in proper date order (I had it backward the first time), and there was a deleted post by you on this subject, interestingly by me, but I didn't do it (unless I"ve started sleeping walking/computing).  It wasn't from my IP address.

Unfortunately, I can't view it to repost/respond to it. 

I've changed my password in case I've been hacked.  I apologize for it being deleted.  I'll talk it over with Stan and Me Again on how this could have happened.
John O


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Re: Should we pray in tongues?
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2012, 09:59:26 PM »
I could go into my whole history about this subject in my own life, going from the lunitic fringe of the Charismatic church (which I left after going to an Assembly of God bible college), to a almost Baptist belief in reaction to the abuses I saw in that church, and now ending up somewhere in the middle, but I don't want to bore you :)

I'm all ears!!!  :o
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

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Re: Should we pray in tongues?
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2012, 10:08:11 PM »
Quote
1 Corinthians 14:5

New International Version (NIV)

I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.

Quasar, the Apostle Paul said that he would like everyone to speak in tongues, but he also acknowledged that the speaking in tongues is occurring without an interpretation.

Why does Paul want us to speak in a language that we can't interpret?

Quote
1 Corinthians 14:14

New International Version (NIV)

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
Quote
1 Corinthians 14:2

New International Version (NIV)

For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Quasar

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Re: Should we pray in tongues?
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2012, 12:26:29 AM »
Quasar,
I looked again in proper date order (I had it backward the first time), and there was a deleted post by you on this subject, interestingly by me, but I didn't do it (unless I"ve started sleeping walking/computing).  It wasn't from my IP address.

Unfortunately, I can't view it to repost/respond to it. 

I've changed my password in case I've been hacked.  I apologize for it being deleted.  I'll talk it over with Stan and Me Again on how this could have happened.



No problem John, forget it, since it was not you, that's all that counts.

It is clear you were given the gift of speaking in tongues and as such you also believe one must pray in tongues for the Holy Spirit to hear and understand your prayers. 

That's OK by me,you believe what you honestly believe!

I do not believe it is necessary for anyone to speak in tongues to be heard and understoods by the Holy Spirit, who is a born again Christian.

The short of it is this is found in Mt.6:8-13, in which we all pray to the Lord on a regular basis.  There is nothing in Jesus guidelines for prayer that even suggests the necessity of prying in tongues, is there.

I believe much the same as you will find in the following links, as previously posted:

http://www.gotquestions.org/praying-in-tongues.html

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-is-speaking-in-tongues-a-biblical-analysis/#ixzz1w2OI3Fq0


Quasar
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 12:44:19 AM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Should we pray in tongues?
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2012, 12:49:23 AM »
Quasar, the Apostle Paul said that he would like everyone to speak in tongues, but he also acknowledged that the speaking in tongues is occurring without an interpretation.

Why does Paul want us to speak in a language that we can't interpret?



The response to all your remarks were in the post that disappeared.  The simple answer to it is that we do not need to speak in tongues [languages] anymore because we all have printed Bibles to be edified by.  The other reasons can be found in the links I have left for John, me again.


Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Should we pray in tongues?
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2012, 09:10:50 AM »
Me Again,  here is the history of me.  It's a bit long because I have to explain how I got there.

I grew up in the Lutheran church (ELCA), was confirmed, all that.  Never really knew the Lord though, had no idea what God's requirements were other than try to be nice, and had no reason why Jesus had to die on the cross.  I left after my confirmation (ironically, the pastor said, "Some of you I'll never see again" during his message and I thought, "Yep!") and never went back except for Christmas/midnight service.

I left home at 16, lived with friends and worked at a restaurant after I dropped out of high school.  There I met a women, we moved in together, and she got pregnant.  Trying to do the honorable thing, I asked her to marry me and she said yes.  Looking at myself in the mirror, and being a non-grad as far as school, I decided the only way I could support a family was to join the military.  The Marines wouldn't take me (wimps!) because I was a non-grad, but the Army would, so I went into the Army.  I excelled in Basic, then Infantry school, then I was given the option for Airborne which I took, then for advanced combat skills course (kind of like a mini-Ranger school).  Then Panama happened.  What this meant was I was gone and not available for her for almost a year, and during that time, my fiancee moved another guy into the apartment and was with him.

Obviously, I was devastated.   I started a bit of a downward spiral, especially when I found out the child she had wasn't mine.  I got out and went reserves and started parting alot, booze and coke mostly.  A few years into this, I met my wife through my brother.  She was his boss at Taco Bell, and we hit it off right away.  We ended up moving in together, and she became pregnant, and had our daughter.  The birth of my daughter had a pretty big impact on me.  About that time, I started working at an electronics factory, and was placed on an assembly line that ran 10hrs a day, 5-6 days a week making remote controls.  On my left side of me was a man named Kevin, who I knew from my childhood and was studying to be a pastor, on my right was a women who was Apostolic (very strict/legalistic Pentecostal), and the line foreman was Boyd, who was also studying to be a pastor.  So, for 60 hrs a week, I had to gospel preached to me from all sides.

One night, I was sitting on my porch smoking a cig after I put my daughter to bed, and something Kevin had said was reverberating in my mind.  He had asked me, "What kind of father do you think you'll be to your newborn daughter?"  Kevin knew that I grew up with an absent father for the first 10 years of my life, and my mom had a very abusive boyfriend who used to beat me whenever he had a bad day.  My dad has been married 4 times, cheated on every single wife except the latest.  In fact, I had cheated on my (future) wife several times.  I saw a mental picture of my daugher growing up like I did, and it broke my heart and I asked Jesus to save me right there on my porch.  I felt an overwhelming sense of peace like I had never known flood me.  I put out my cig, and went back into the house and went to bed.

The next day at work, Kevin asked me at lunch if I had accepted Jesus.  I sheepishly said yes (part of me felt like I was being a wimp not being able to handle life and needing a crutch), and how did you know?  He said, "Well, you haven't gone out on break to smoke, and you haven't sworn all day."  (I was famous for my colorful and extremely profane way of saying things).  I realized that I had no desire to smoke anymore- Jesus took it immediately from me, and that even though I wasn't even trying, I was using more gentle language and not being loud and obnoxious as usual.  Kevin was overjoyed and invited me to his church, and independant Pentecostal church whose pastor was ordained through the Assemblies.

It was a solid church in the beginning.  My wife followed me in salvation about 4 months after I did, and we were married a short time later, then baptized that New Years night.  About one year later, we had a big upheaval at church- the board didn't like the way that the pastor handled a sensitive situation and he ended up resigning.  That was around the time the Brownsville Revival was getting into full swing and several board members went there and came back with that kind of "revival" mindset.  Basicially, it tore apart the church and we went from close to 700 on a Sunday morning to just over 200 in a few months.  It also allowed a new board to be chosen, people that were "revival friendly" but had no church leadership experience prior to that.  We then pretty much went into a experiencial model of church- if it seemed like the Holy Spirit was moving, then what we were doing must be ok.  That led to all kinds of stuff, and that church is today a shell of what it was.

After serving a time there as a figurehead interim pastor (I got to do the pastoral care, preach occasionally, but got no say in how things were done), my wife and I left and started attending an Assemblies church that my friend Kevin had left for.  We are now on staff, and are much more balanced in our theology regarding the Holy Spirit, or at least I think so :).  I've also since finished bible school so I have a much better appreciating of systematic theology.

Thats about it.

John O


Offline Quasar

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Re: Should we pray in tongues?
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2012, 10:42:22 AM »
Thanks for your very interesting testimony, John.  Frankly, I don't see it as a very long one either!  You most certainly would not want to wade through mine, where I wandered in my own wilderness for 45 years!   :)

You did indeed have a tough life, whereas the short of mine is that my parents were divorced when I was only 3 years old and I was kidnapped twice.  Once by my mom and once by my dad, to begin it all with.  But enough of that, and I applaud you for how you let the Lord shape up your life.


Quasar
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 03:40:26 PM by Quasar »
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Quasar

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Re: Should we pray in tongues?
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2012, 04:09:03 PM »
Quote from: John O
Back to the discussion at hand-
I read both articles, and IMHO they were long on opinion and short of biblical scholarship.  I'm come to expect that on this subject, and please rest assured I have studied it for myself and am comfortable with my conclusions.  As an Assembly of God minister, I do not, nor would I ever force a person to speak in tongues, nor would I suggest that they have "less of the Holy Spirit" than those who do.  I realize there are those out there that might, even in my own fellowship.  Within the Assemblies, there is more of a movement to no long push this emphasis (ironically to make our fellowship more palitable to the "unchurched"), so within my generation we may see the use of this gift vanish.


I know you have a great passion for the gift of speaking and praying in tongues - for which I respect.  Much the same as the passion I hold for the gifts of prophecy and the identifying of false prophets and spirits.  In addition, I believe the views of the following links were well documented as to clearly identifying the Biblical teachings of how we should pray as Christians.  Also, that we are all given gifts by the will of the Holy Spirit, though we are not all given the same gifts.  Which all combined constitutes the one body of Christ - by the one Spirit - according to 1 Cor.12.

http://www.gotquestions.org/praying-in-tongues.html

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-is-speaking-in-tongues-a-biblical-analysis/#ixzz1w2OI3Fq0

From Mt.6:9-13, Jesus teaches us how we should pray, in which there is nothing added to His guidelines in it to suggest we must pray be in tongues.

Since the ability to speak in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit, He most certainly understands everyone who prays in his own tongue.

That is my stand on the issue and I too have had sufficient training to command pastorship.  But my life did not go in that direction, I never at any time abandoned my training.


Quasar

"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

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Re: Should we pray in tongues?
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2012, 07:49:28 PM »
From Mt.6:9-13, Jesus teaches us how we should pray, in which there is nothing added to His guidelines in it to suggest we must pray be in tongues.

It's interesting that Jesus mentioned "speaking in new of tongues."

Quote from: Mark 16:17
Jesus said: "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues..." (Mark 16:17).
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Quasar

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Re: Should we pray in tongues?
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2012, 10:38:49 PM »
It's interesting that Jesus mentioned "speaking in new of tongues."


Annotation found in all reliable Bible translations:  "The most reliable early manuscripts and other reliable witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.

Many new languages have been added since the Gospel of Mark was written, but that says nothing about praying in tongues, does it.


Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

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Re: Should we pray in tongues?
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2012, 09:27:00 AM »

Annotation found in all reliable Bible translations:  "The most reliable early manuscripts and other reliable witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.

Many new languages have been added since the Gospel of Mark was written, but that says nothing about praying in tongues, does it.

The King James Bible has it. Which are the most reliable manuscripts, if not the KJV?

The Revised Standard Version (2nd Catholic edition) also has it, but it has the following annotation (the links are to the Amplified Bible and not the RSV-CE):

*Mark 16:9-20. This passage is regarded as inspired and canocal scripture, even if not written by Mark. As it is missing from some important manuscripts, it is possible that Mark did not write it. On the other hand, he would hardly have left his Gospel unfinished at verse 8. Many think that the original ending was lost at a very early date and that this ending was composed at the end of the apostolic period to take it's place.

"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

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Re: Should we pray in tongues?
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2012, 09:33:56 AM »
Thanks for sharing your testimony John. I just got back from New York City and it was so crowded that it looked like a "disturbed ant pile that had been kicked." Ants (people) were everywhere. It was aptly noted that each of them has a story and God is fully appraised of each one. None escape his attention. It is amazing.

The part about church turmoil and change is also interesting. Times change, people change, opinions change and things change, but [real] church doctrine should not change.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Quasar

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Re: Should we pray in tongues?
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2012, 03:50:56 PM »
The King James Bible has it. Which are the most reliable manuscripts, if not the KJV?

The Revised Standard Version (2nd Catholic edition) also has it, but it has the following annotation (the links are to the Amplified Bible and not the RSV-CE):

*Mark 16:9-20. This passage is regarded as inspired and canocal scripture, even if not written by Mark. As it is missing from some important manuscripts, it is possible that Mark did not write it. On the other hand, he would hardly have left his Gospel unfinished at verse 8. Many think that the original ending was lost at a very early date and that this ending was composed at the end of the apostolic period to take it's place.


So do most all other reliable translations of the Bible, but they also all have a notation pertaining to Mark 16:9-20.

See:  http://www.gotquestions.org/Mark-16-9-20.html

Do you believe the Holy Spirit understands your prayers when you do so in your own language?  I do.


Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

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Re: Should we pray in tongues?
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2012, 09:17:43 PM »
Do you believe the Holy Spirit understands your prayers when you do so in your own language? 

Yes.  :o
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

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Re: Should we pray in tongues?
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2012, 09:25:06 PM »
Quasar, I'm still in an exploratory stage, regarding praying or speaking in tongues and have not formed a definitive opinion, except that it is biblical.

I acknowledge that on Pentecost, Jews from all over the world were present and that they heard the Christians speaking in their own languages (in tongues praising God).

Conversely, there appears to be other biblical texts about tongues (and praying in the spirit) that may or may not align with your personal interpretation of what tongues really are.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

 

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