* *
489 Guests, 0 Users

Author Topic: Why Gay marriage should be championed, not shunned by the Christian community.  (Read 3634 times)

Offline Catalyst

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • Theologyreview.com
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
    • Dallas
I know there are few topics that will stir up the fire quicker than this one.  But with the Chik-Fil-A fiasco, this has really popped up into the chat.  So, perhaps it's a good time to drop a controversial position to engage some brains, get folks to reconsider their positions and perhaps dig a little deeper, perhaps not.

The case FOR Christians helping the GLBT community to marriages.

1)  Church doesn't own the term.  The concept was around long before Christians or Jews existed. 
2)  The English word, Marriage, is about 400ish years old.  It was used to describe a legal contract between families at the union of their children.  Land, dowries, promises were put on the table for these unions and they needed witnesses and someone to write the agreements down. 
3)  Thus entered the Church of Rome.  The most educated people.  Used to witness, and document the events.  That's how the Church became involved in the legal business.
4)  God will bless your marriage if you get married in a pig pen, or in free fall.  God's blessing isn't centered around the word for the union. 
5)  The position of NO GAY MARRIAGE, is about as unbigoted as NO INTERRACIAL MARRIAGES 100 years ago.  Religious institutions spoke heartily about not having them, unbiblical, they are cursed, inferior, we are pure, lynchings, burnings, murders in the name of God.  The positions for no gay marriages mirror those, just the names have been changed.  They both were opposed by the Church, in fact, southern Baptist churches were involved in the establishment of the KKK.  So were the Democrats of that time.  Certainly that isn't a condemn for anyone of the time though in either institution.
6) Exegetics: I trust you'll be familiar with the versal references below.

Paul said honor the government.

Christ told the soldier and the tax collector when asked what they should do (as their jobs were way down the shunned list of jobs for a livelihood at the time.)  He told them to do their government jobs, but to do them fairly and justly.

The government has a responsibility to the people, ALL the people, not just the Christians.  In fact the Christians should have no special attention, and asking for it is opening the door for involvement of church and state issues. 

Christ, Paul, John, James, Barnabas, etc... have ZERO examples of trying to legislate their faith.  In fact, the Way would probably find that exceedingly lazy.  They were noted as providing for people even not of their faith.  Burying their dead I believe is an example Pliny the Younger mentioned. 

Christ described that anyone can love their friends, but God the father loves His enemies as well, AND provides necessities for them.   I believe the examples were water and sun, but don't hold me to that.  Examples are just that examples.  God was providing is the relevant part.

Christ then commanded that you love your enemies as completely as God the Father does.   There is no striving in context, nor syntax, nor language anywhere near that conversation.  The KJV use of the word Perfect throws most people into a knee jerking frenzy.  At the time of the KJV translation the word had a somewhat different meaning than today.  In fact that Utopian concept we see it as having has only been around less time than the word "marriage" has been around in English. 

The word LOVE has an interesting addition to this chat.  The word Agapao, is an emotion that requires a demonstration to be agapao.  Any emotion, not just love, if it possesses the action is Agapao.  Examples, people loving evil things in the NT meaning they had and acted on desires not Godly, "loved evil things" uses the word Agapao for things by definition not of God.   

In the Septuagint, the word for the Rape in the OT was agapao, agape, one of them. 
You can't love your neighbor without demonstrating that love.  It requires an action.

Gal 5:6 Paul says that the most impactful, HOT theology argument of his day wasn't important, but faith working through love was.

Matthew 25, the last parable, sheep and goats, the one that moved forward and "weren't left behind", were the ones that did the works.  The goats knew the shepherd there, but they didn't do the work and were denied.  The works don't save, but what saves you will produce the works, undeniably. 

So, I would contend that the Government has a God given responsibility to care for the GLBT community as much, maybe more so than the Christian community.  As Christians, we should honor them, as the soldier and tax collector were told to do, as they fulfill their jobs fairly.  Christ didn't say give the Christian a break on taxes, nor on the legal issues to the soldier.

In fact most of the MARTYRS as I read it, went to their deaths willingly to honor the government and fulfill God's desires.

By fighting God's appointed in office, we are not being good Christians, but we are being..... anti Christ by not obeying His commands.

If God's love is so complete and providential for even His enemies, it's a shame His church undermines His efforts.

For the record two of the most important figures in the Bible, used by God, were Judas Iscariot, and Pharaoh.  Do you think the Church today, would have fought against God's will to save the Jews and Christ?  Where would we be then?

A last thought.  Gideon had no way to understand how God's plan would work.  Send the army home, drop the weapons and shields, and charge with crock pots and bugles.  I'm afraid instead of Yes Lord!; the Church today would say, why that's just silly, we are the people we know fighting better than you, come watch!

Why aren't we content with God's government doing their job?

Vote your conscience but if your vote doesn't win the say, be content.  Isolating and attacking those politicians that don't agree with your views, is an action against GOD if that is God's intended.

It makes the House of Love, appear to be attempting to install a fascist regime in a coup.  See definition for fascist, it's not used hyperbolicly nor pejoratively.

Offline John Oscar

  • Bondservant of the Lord
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4766
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
    • Whitehall Assembly
Pretty much disagree with everything you wrote, particularly your biblical exegesis (it's actually eisegesis). 
Otherwise, it's a fine liberal reinterpretation of what the church has believed for almost 2000 years, but it isn't truth in any stretch.
John O


Offline Catalyst

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • Theologyreview.com
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
    • Dallas
Pretty much disagree with everything you wrote, particularly your biblical exegesis (it's actually eisegesis). 

Well anyone can say such things, but only one who is right can show them. :|  I don't care if you agree or disagree, I didn't write it to get an "attaboy".  Show me ANY place where I read the verse wrong, or misrepresented it.  I accepted them pretty much exactly as written, and my presentation won't have ANY contradictions in the books of the Bible.  I've gone through it on this topic cover to cover more than once.  I'm very confident.  For you to just proclaim I'm wrong and eisegetic with no argument, is about the same thing as calling someone names and avoiding the arguments.  I gave verses and reasoning, you gave an opinion>  I'm asking for exegetics, you gave strife.  I'd like to discuss the issues else I wouldn't have posted it.

Otherwise, it's a fine liberal reinterpretation of what the church has believed for almost 2000 years, but it isn't truth in any stretch.

The minute you try to put me in a box, your credibility wanes.  I'm more conservative than you.  I accept all of those verses as written, and have had to change my views to fit the scripture.  You sit quite the opposite, I would think, in your views.  But we don't know why you think I'm wrong, so I'm purely speculating.

For the record, it's very rude and condescending to just say someone is wrong and give no reason. 

Offline Quasar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
Quote from: Catalyst







Why Gay marriage should be championed, not shunned by the Christian community.

« on: Yesterday at 09:21:34 PM »



I know there are few topics that will stir up the fire quicker than this one.  But with the Chik-Fil-A fiasco, this has really popped up into the chat.  So, perhaps it's a good time to drop a controversial position to engage some brains, get folks to reconsider their positions and perhaps dig a little deeper, perhaps not.

The case FOR Christians helping the GLBT community to marriages.


Your OP is full of opinion and rationalizing your belief everyone should accept homosexuals, including Christians.

Do you think God will ever accept It?  Then why do you think Christians should?  The entire chapter of Gen.19 clearly reveals to you the judgement this country will suffer for the perverted degeneration it is fast moving towards, if not already.

See also what Paul says about it in Rom.1:24-17.  Contrary to your allegations, Christians who reject homosexuality are doing what is right in God's sight!


Quasar 
 
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Catalyst

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • Theologyreview.com
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
    • Dallas

Your OP is full of opinion and rationalizing your belief everyone should accept homosexuals, including Christians.

No it's not.  Your theology is full of rationalizing to justify your behavior.  You turn your back on the scripture above.  Now, we can toss empy volleys back and forth all day.  Do you care to address the issues, or attack me personally?

Do you think God will ever accept It?
  Accept what?  My argument that HE wants us to love our enemies?  HE SAID IT.  If you deny it, you are anti Christ by definition as you stand against His word.  I thought conservatives acknowledged and followed His word?

Then why do you think Christians should?  The entire chapter of Gen.19 clearly reveals to you the judgement this country will suffer for the perverted degeneration it is fast moving towards, if not already.

:|  Please, show me how I haven't already answered your question here.  It HAS been answered already.  You just ignored and didn't answer any of it.  That's somewhat disrespectful. 

In regards to Genesis 19, if you read ALL of that story, you will discover that it was destroyed because it's mind had wandered from God, and the men on men thing was merely a symptom of that offense.  Of coruse that doesn't fit with your judgement, but as I said, I'm the conservative, I accept all the scripture, even if it requires me to change my theology to accomodate.


See also what Paul says about it in Rom.1:24-17.  Contrary to your allegations, Christians who reject homosexuality are doing what is right in God's sight!
Quasar

First off Paul addresses the mind set.  Homosexuality is one of a dozen symptoms of that mindset.   Why do you not harrass the other 11 as much as GLBT community? 

Read Romans 1 slowly.  Close one eye to engage each side of the brain when you read it.  First read it with the right eye, (left brain), then with the left eye, (right brain).  And you'll notice the words, unequivocally say these people have faulty mindsets, and they were turned over to pursue.... 12 or so things that aren't Godly.  It's the mindset that is condemned.   FURTHERMORE no where in the Bible would it condemn a celibate or virgin homosexual.  It only addresses the sexual act.  If they aren't having the sexual act, there is no biblical sin.  Before you scream if they lust.... the sin of lust is heterosexual also.  I'm sure some homosexuals lust, just as some heterosexuals do.  But that isn't a condemnation of them as a person just for being homosexual. 

100 years agbo, the church was screaming teh same things about interracial relationships.  It was the CHURCH convinced the world was trying to change their faith and allow an abomination.  Would you have us reawaken that position to suit your needs as well? 

Now, I'm trying to keep this on the scripture side, but if you will continue to ignore it, and try to defeat me by implied character failure, we have no need to continue the conversation.

Offline Quasar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
No it's not.  Your theology is full of rationalizing to justify your behavior.  You turn your back on the scripture above.  Now, we can toss empy volleys back and forth all day.  Do you care to address the issues, or attack me personally?
  Accept what?  My argument that HE wants us to love our enemies?  HE SAID IT.  If you deny it, you are anti Christ by definition as you stand against His word.  I thought conservatives acknowledged and followed His word?

:|  Please, show me how I haven't already answered your question here.  It HAS been answered already.  You just ignored and didn't answer any of it.  That's somewhat disrespectful. 

In regards to Genesis 19, if you read ALL of that story, you will discover that it was destroyed because it's mind had wandered from God, and the men on men thing was merely a symptom of that offense.  Of coruse that doesn't fit with your judgement, but as I said, I'm the conservative, I accept all the scripture, even if it requires me to change my theology to accomodate.


First off Paul addresses the mind set.  Homosexuality is one of a dozen symptoms of that mindset.   Why do you not harrass the other 11 as much as GLBT community? 

Read Romans 1 slowly.  Close one eye to engage each side of the brain when you read it.  First read it with the right eye, (left brain), then with the left eye, (right brain).  And you'll notice the words, unequivocally say these people have faulty mindsets, and they were turned over to pursue.... 12 or so things that aren't Godly.  It's the mindset that is condemned.   FURTHERMORE no where in the Bible would it condemn a celibate or virgin homosexual.  It only addresses the sexual act.  If they aren't having the sexual act, there is no biblical sin.  Before you scream if they lust.... the sin of lust is heterosexual also.  I'm sure some homosexuals lust, just as some heterosexuals do.  But that isn't a condemnation of them as a person just for being homosexual. 

100 years agbo, the church was screaming teh same things about interracial relationships.  It was the CHURCH convinced the world was trying to change their faith and allow an abomination.  Would you have us reawaken that position to suit your needs as well? 

Now, I'm trying to keep this on the scripture side, but if you will continue to ignore it, and try to defeat me by implied character failure, we have no need to continue the conversation.



Listen carefully junior!  "Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom - both young and old - surrounded the house.  They called to Lot, 'Where are the men whomcame to you tonoght?  Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them.'  Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, 'No, my friends, don't do thids wicked thing.  Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man.  Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them.  But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.'"  Etc,. until the angels pulled Lot back into the house and struck all of the men outside with blindness so they could see nothing.  Gen.19:4-11  NIV.  Which is a narrative of homosexuality and there is no rationalizing around it!

In Rom.1:24-27 NIV: "Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual inpurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served created things rather than the Creator - who is forever praised, Amen.  Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.  Even their women exchanged natural relations for unatural ones.  In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.  Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

The Word of God is crystal clear as to what He thinks of homosexuality and you don't have a single excuse to wriggle and squirm around trying to remake the Scriptures into God accepting it!  Capiche?


Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline John Oscar

  • Bondservant of the Lord
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4766
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
    • Whitehall Assembly
In matters of theology, this particular subject inflames passion like few others.  Let's all remember that we are Christian brothers, or at least potentially a future Christian brother if we adequetely give reason for the hope that we have, and do so in kindness and gentleness so that all can see our good behavior.
John O


Offline Catalyst

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • Theologyreview.com
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
    • Dallas


Listen carefully junior!  "Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom - both young and old - surrounded the house.  They called to Lot, 'Where are the men whomcame to you tonoght?  Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them.'

You are too busy being right to listen, "OLD MAN".  You are using the incomprehensive teaching of the matter that the Bible offers.  The event at Lots door wasn't what caused them to be salted, it was but a symptom of the cause.  IF you insist on being this stubborn, we'll never get anywhere.  Since you won't consider anything but your own ramblings, and refuse to do any research, let me proffer....

Eze 16:49   "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.

Eze 16:50   "Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them [fn]when I saw it.
The homosexuality you declare the reason, was but a result of their haughtiness and their stingyness and there ME ME ME ME theology, which is exactly what Romans 1 shows as well.  I'll get there in a second.

Consider,  21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

If you read the text,  those being in trouble here were those that did not honor God, and give thanks, but became speculative, or justifying so THEN their heart was darkened.  After their heart was darkened, they became fools.  They are identified as those who exchanged God for man made concepts.

And THEN.....
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, <<<<< AFTER their hearts were hardened for other offenses, THEN they were released....  In other words the condemnation happens before the following list....

....
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, (THEN) God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

1) because they did not honor God any longer....
2) God then gave them over to a depraved mind,
3) so that they they could do those things which weren't proper.  The improper things happened after the offense that prompted God to turn them over.
4) those things are, unrighteous---- listed as, wickedness, greed, evil, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit. blah blah blah...

The sin was they pursued self over God.  So God turned them over.  Some did homosexual things, the results were the list above of being turned over.

The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was they stopped making God #1 and pursued self interests, much like the things Paul listed here, and in Ezekiel above, they put self first. 

To find such snippets of truth, you have to forsake that you know it all, and research the topic for what it says, not for what you want to find.  That's an "old man" way of doing things, right?  Can we drop the insults here?  Your young man thing was bunk and childish and I've made the point now.  Get over yourself thinking you are so much wiser.  You aren't that much older than me, IF you are older than me, and you sure as heck haven't studied this topic as much as I have so stop trying to posture by degrading me and let your arguments stand for how AWESOME you are.



The Word of God is crystal clear as to what He thinks of homosexuality and you don't have a single excuse to wriggle and squirm around trying to remake the Scriptures into God accepting it!  Capiche?

Quasar

Actually, the condemnation is only on someone committing homosexual sex.  A virgin homosexual, or a celibate homosexual is committing no sin according to the Bible.  I don't need excuses, I'm not a bigot, and I read the Bible as written.

Offline Quasar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
Quote by Catalyst
You are too busy being right to listen, "OLD MAN". You are using the incomprehensive teaching of the matter that the Bible offers. The event at Lots door wasn't what caused them to be salted, it was but a symptom of the cause. IF you insist on being this stubborn, we'll never get anywhere. Since you won't consider anything but your own ramblings, and refuse to do any research, let me proffer....

 
Quasar:  It's understandable how you have arrived at your convoluted distortion of thinking God will ever condone homosexuality.  And I'm of the opinion you could well be one!  I will compare my Bible College qualifications to your seat of the pants qualifications any day of the week, sonny!


Eze 16:49 "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.

Eze 16:50 "Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them [fn]when I saw it.
The homosexuality you declare the reason, was but a result of their haughtiness and their stingyness and there ME ME ME ME theology, which is exactly what Romans 1 shows as well. I'll get there in a second.

 
Quasar:  Which is more irrelevant musings to the Scriptural documentations of homosexuality in Gen.19 for God destroying Sodom and Gomorrah togther with all the neighboring cities there!


Consider, 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

If you read the text, those being in trouble here were those that did not honor God, and give thanks, but became speculative, or justifying so THEN their heart was darkened. After their heart was darkened, they became fools. They are identified as those who exchanged God for man made concepts.

And THEN.....
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, <<<<< AFTER their hearts were hardened for other offenses, THEN they were released.... In other words the condemnation happens before the following list....

....
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, (THEN) God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

1) because they did not honor God any longer....
2) God then gave them over to a depraved mind,
3) so that they they could do those things which weren't proper. The improper things happened after the offense that prompted God to turn them over.
4) those things are, unrighteous---- listed as, wickedness, greed, evil, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit. blah blah blah...

The sin was they pursued self over God. So God turned them over. Some did homosexual things, the results were the list above of being turned over.

The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was they stopped making God #1 and pursued self interests, much like the things Paul listed here, and in Ezekiel above, they put self first.

To find such snippets of truth, you have to forsake that you know it all, and research the topic for what it says, not for what you want to find. That's an "old man" way of doing things, right? Can we drop the insults here? Your young man thing was bunk and childish and I've made the point now. Get over yourself thinking you are so much wiser. You aren't that much older than me, IF you are older than me, and you sure as heck haven't studied this topic as much as I have so stop trying to posture by degrading me and let your arguments stand for how AWESOME you are.


Quote from: Quasar Yesterday at 12:31:00 AM
The Word of God is crystal clear as to what He thinks of homosexuality and you don't have a single excuse to wriggle and squirm around trying to remake the Scriptures into God accepting it! Capiche?  Quasar


Actually, the condemnation is only on someone committing homosexual sex. A virgin homosexual, or a celibate homosexual is committing no sin according to the Bible. I don't need excuses, I'm not a bigot, and I read the Bible as written.

 
Quasar:  There is nothing in the Bible to support your speculation, but the following are the Scriptural facts:  "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.  They must be put to death; their blood will be on their heads."  Lev.20:13  NIV.  Do you understand that?

 
Rom.1:26-27 are equally clear as to the condemnation of homosexuality and there is no rationalizing around it trying to remake the Scriptures to say something they don't!  Capiche?



Quasar


 







 
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline Quasar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
FROM ANOTHER SOURCE:

What does the Bible say about gay marriage / same sex marriage?

While the Bible does address homosexuality, it does not explicitly mention gay marriage/same-sex marriage. It is clear, however, that the Bible condemns homosexuality as an immoral and unnatural sin. Leviticus 18:22 identifies homosexual sex as an abomination, a detestable sin. Romans 1:26-27 declares homosexual desires and actions to be shameful, unnatural, lustful, and indecent. First Corinthians 6:9 states that homosexuals are unrighteous and will not inherit the kingdom of God. Since both homosexual desires and actions are condemned in the Bible, it is clear that homosexuals “marrying” is not God’s will, and would be, in fact, sinful.

Whenever the Bible mentions marriage, it is between a male and a female. The first mention of marriage, Genesis 2:24, describes it as a man leaving his parents and being united to his wife. In passages that contain instructions regarding marriage, such as 1 Corinthians 7:2-16 and Ephesians 5:23-33, the Bible clearly identifies marriage as being between a man and a woman. Biblically speaking, marriage is the lifetime union of a man and a woman, primarily for the purpose of building a family and providing a stable environment for that family.

The Bible alone, however, does not have to be used to demonstrate this understanding of marriage. The biblical viewpoint of marriage has been the universal understanding of marriage in every human civilization in world history. History argues against gay marriage. Modern secular psychology recognizes that men and women are psychologically and emotionally designed to complement one another. In regard to the family, psychologists contend that a union between a man and woman in which both spouses serve as good gender role models is the best environment in which to raise well-adjusted children. Psychology argues against gay marriage. In nature/physicality, clearly, men and women were designed to “fit” together sexually. With the “natural” purpose of sexual intercourse being procreation, clearly only a sexual relationship between a man and a woman can fulfill this purpose. Nature argues against gay marriage.

So, if the Bible, history, psychology, and nature all argue for marriage being between a man and a woman—why is there such a controversy today? Why are those who are opposed to gay marriage/same-sex marriage labeled as hateful, intolerant bigots, no matter how respectfully the opposition is presented? Why is the gay rights movement so aggressively pushing for gay marriage/same-sex marriage when most people, religious and non-religious, are supportive of—or at least far less opposed to—gay couples having all the same legal rights as married couples with some form of civil union?

The answer, according to the Bible, is that everyone inherently knows that homosexuality is immoral and unnatural, and the only way to suppress this inherent knowledge is by normalizing homosexuality and attacking any and all opposition to it. The best way to normalize homosexuality is by placing gay marriage/same-sex marriage on an equal plane with traditional opposite-gender marriage. Romans 1:18-32 illustrates this. The truth is known because God has made it plain. The truth is rejected and replaced with a lie. The lie is then promoted and the truth suppressed and attacked. The vehemence and anger expressed by many in the gay rights movement to any who oppose them is, in fact, an indication that they know their position is indefensible. Trying to overcome a weak position by raising your voice is the oldest trick in the debating book. There is perhaps no more accurate description of the modern gay rights agenda than Romans 1:31, “they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.”

To give sanction to gay marriage/same-sex marriage would be to give approval to the homosexual lifestyle, which the Bible clearly and consistently condemns as sinful. Christians should stand firmly against the idea of gay marriage/same-sex marriage. Further, there are strong and logical arguments against gay marriage/same-sex marriage from contexts completely separated from the Bible. One does not have to be an evangelical Christian to recognize that marriage is between a man and a woman.

According to the Bible, marriage is ordained by God to be between a man and a woman (Genesis 2:21-24; Matthew 19:4-6). Gay marriage/same-sex marriage is a perversion of the institution of marriage and an offense to the God who created marriage. As Christians, we are not to condone or ignore sin. Rather, we are to share the love of God and the forgiveness of sins that is available to all, including homosexuals, through Jesus Christ. We are to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15) and contend for truth with “gentleness and respect” (1 Peter 3:15). As Christians, when we make a stand for truth and the result is personal attacks, insults, and persecution, we should remember the words of Jesus: “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you” (John 15:18-19).

Recommended Resource: The Truth About Same-Sex Marriage: 6 Things You Must Know About What's Really at Stake by Erwin Lutzer.


From: www.gotquestions.org


Quasar
"I am the way and the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father except by me."  Jn.14:6.

Offline me again

  • Bought with a price...
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3682
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
    • http://theologyreview.com/
1 Cor 6

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


Unrepentant homosexuality leads to hell. Repentant homosexuality + acceptance of Jesus = leads to heaven.

"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Catalyst

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • Theologyreview.com
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
    • Dallas
1 Cor 6

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ummm that wouldn't be homosexuals, that would be men  presenting themselves as women, a cross dresser in our culture.  Most cross dressers are hetero.  That's a fact.  Now, the LOUDEST most seen, are gay divas doing tranny shows, I'll admit... but medical science, will tell you, most are hetero.
The greek word for that verse...... wouldn't get to homosexual with it I don't think.

Let me amend that.  Not to homosexual as we see it today.  It would deal with the sexually driven to be with their own sex, but that's more of a sex addiction, than representative of all homosexuals.  I know many homosexuals that have only had sex a hand full of times in their lives.  They are more sinless than probably every hetero person I know.  The fact that their attraction is to the same sex, isn't a sin of itself.  And I think you agree with that mostly, below.  The fact the word deals with catamites, puts a flavor on it that is pretty specific.


Unrepentant homosexuality leads to hell. Repentant homosexuality + acceptance of Jesus = leads to heaven.
And I'm dead on with the last line.  :)


So, the position is, since homosexuals sin, they should be denied marriage rights? 

Why do we let heterosexuals that sin get married then?   We aren't talking about someone trying to make the Church pray to God to sanctify their marriages. We are talking about legal rights.   And matt 5 says we would want to get them the rights, not deny them.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2012, 07:11:24 PM by Catalyst »

Offline me again

  • Bought with a price...
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3682
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
    • http://theologyreview.com/
Ummm that wouldn't be homosexuals, that would be men  presenting themselves as women, a cross dresser in our culture.  Most cross dressers are hetero.  That's a fact.  Now, the LOUDEST most seen, are gay divas doing tranny shows, I'll admit... but medical science, will tell you, most are hetero.
The greek word for that verse...... wouldn't get to homosexual with it I don't think.

Let me amend that.  Not to homosexual as we see it today.  It would deal with the sexually driven to be with their own sex, but that's more of a sex addiction, than representative of all homosexuals.  I know many homosexuals that have only had sex a hand full of times in their lives.  They are more sinless than probably every hetero person I know.  The fact that their attraction is to the same sex, isn't a sin of itself.  And I think you agree with that mostly, below.  The fact the word deals with catamites, puts a flavor on it that is pretty specific.

And I'm dead on with the last line.  :)

You are deceived and you are teaching heresies.

2 Tim. 4

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

1 Tim. 4

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline John Oscar

  • Bondservant of the Lord
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4766
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
    • Whitehall Assembly
Ummm that wouldn't be homosexuals, that would be men  presenting themselves as women, a cross dresser in our culture.  Most cross dressers are hetero.  That's a fact.  Now, the LOUDEST most seen, are gay divas doing tranny shows, I'll admit... but medical science, will tell you, most are hetero.
The greek word for that verse...... wouldn't get to homosexual with it I don't think.

Let me amend that.  Not to homosexual as we see it today.  It would deal with the sexually driven to be with their own sex, but that's more of a sex addiction, than representative of all homosexuals.  I know many homosexuals that have only had sex a hand full of times in their lives.  They are more sinless than probably every hetero person I know.  The fact that their attraction is to the same sex, isn't a sin of itself.  And I think you agree with that mostly, below.  The fact the word deals with catamites, puts a flavor on it that is pretty specific.

And I'm dead on with the last line.  :)


So, the position is, since homosexuals sin, they should be denied marriage rights? 

Why do we let heterosexuals that sin get married then?   We aren't talking about someone trying to make the Church pray to God to sanctify their marriages. We are talking about legal rights.   And matt 5 says we would want to get them the rights, not deny them.

Within the Greek language and Roman/Palestinian culture of the 1st century, that word was meant to address homosexuals, in particular male men taking teenage boys as sex slaves (catamites).  The word has been translated into English depending how that particular generation understood the condition of homosexuality.  In Shakespearean English that the KJV was translated, effeminate (which then literally meant "so feminine that he was like one who was penetrated by another man") meant what we would term homosexual.  Shakespeare himself used that term to describe Richard II, a king that was at least bisexual if not completely homosexual.

What you are doing Catalyst is a common mistake- trying to place 21st century meanings to words that had different meanings when they were translated.   That's why the NIV translated the Greek word "arsenokiotes" as homosexual, particularly in 1 Cor 6:9 when it immediate follows the Greek word "malakos" which meant "catamite".  Paul was using a similar progression of thought that he did in Romans 1 showing the slippery slope of sin going from bad to worse in the sexual ethics of biblical thought.

As far as a homosexual's legal rights as American citizens, marriage has always been a religious institution in this country since it's founding, and therefore falls under the church to decide.  (That's a hard arguement to make since so many churches have thrown out the bible and 2000 years of Christian thought and embraced sin in order to be relevant). 

Depending on how you read the 14th amendment, they may have a case there.  It depends on if you consider marriage a civil right.
John O


Offline Catalyst

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • Theologyreview.com
    • View Profile
    • Poke This Member
    • Dallas
You are deceived and you are teaching heresies.

ONE I"m not preaching anything.
TWO I'm absolutely more in line with scripture here.
THREE the word HERESY is defined as YOU DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT I WANT YOU TO.  And in a room of 10000 believers only one isn't a heretic on something, that's yourself.  That word is about as appropriate in a conversation as saying "you big dummy". 

SHOW me how the Church's stand today, dehumanizing and abusive, is fulfilling Jesus' command in matt 5:48 and we can talk of my heresy.  Anything else is just justifying hate in the name of God, the God of love. 

Your line above..... isn't conversation, it's inflammatory accusation.  It has no place within your rules of this forum. 


2 Tim. 4

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

You are the one violating Christ's command, not me.  I'm preaching they asked for a coat and give them my shirt, or love them as God loved even his enemies where HE provided for them.  It's amazing the very verse you quote, points out your out of position statements.
1 Tim. 4

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;[/color]

You lost all respect the second you went to name calling and not discussing the exegesis.

 

ads

Recent

Shoutbox

Last 5 Shouts:

 

me again

October 09, 2014, 02:15:06 PM
Quote
Religious Lie: "God only paid for sins until the next time you sin."
Forgiveness is available until we get to eternity and then our eternal fate is sealed. Right now, people are free to sin and repent; but there is no forgiveness of sin for the damned in hell.
 

Stan

October 05, 2014, 10:24:53 AM
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
 

Stan

May 03, 2014, 01:12:35 PM
Lots of visitors..  easy to join,  easy to post...  come make some friends..  Play nice with others.
 

The Crusader

February 26, 2014, 04:30:18 PM
Religious Lie: "God only paid for sins until the next time you sin."
 

The Crusader

December 23, 2013, 09:38:53 AM
JUST A THINK ABOUT IT: Will you embrace the full meaning of Christmas? Jesus didn't die just so you could go to heaven. He came to give you life - His life; an abundant life free from guilt, condemnation, and slavery to both sins and religion. He came to bring a grace revolution to the world and tha

Show 50 latest

Our Amazon Store

Unique visitors since Dec 1, 2012

Flag Counter