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Author Topic: Why Gay marriage should be championed, not shunned by the Christian community.  (Read 3524 times)

Offline Catalyst

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Within the Greek language and Roman/Palestinian culture of the 1st century, that word was meant to address homosexuals,
  It's not the only meaning of the word, it's not the literal meaning of the word, it's not the most likely meaning of the word.  If I'm going to get that loose with the words, then Jesus was homosexual, the word used for the apostle he loved.... the love word.... is also used for sexual unions.  I'm sorry, but there is a cultural context and understanding that has to go, we gotta look into it more than just to support our cause.

in particular male men taking teenage boys as sex slaves (catamites). 

Which, as I said, has nothing to do with the mainstream homossexuals of today.  Most "catamites" are heterosexual men hat were abused sexually as a child.  Don't trust me go to the psych community.

The word has been translated into English depending how that particular generation understood the condition of homosexuality.

If we are going to pinchwords, then stop claiming homosexuality is a sin.  ONLY Homosexual sex is a sin in the Bible.  A virgin or celibate homosexual, is still a homosexual, is not in sin.  We might as well get ON TARGET if we are going to mince words...  And if you wish to object, do it with scripture that mentions anything relating to homosexuality and show me.  It doesn't exist.


 In Shakespearean English that the KJV was translated, effeminate (which then literally meant "so feminine that he was like one who was penetrated by another man") meant what we would term homosexual.


You are reading into it what can't be concluded.  You had men at that time, that worked as "call girls" dressing effeminate and playing that role.  The catamite thing, was an accepted issue among the aristocracy.  Alexander the Great raised by his father's favorite general was nearly certainly abused in that way.  It was their way.  That was in Macedonia, not Greece/Athens that is made famous for it.  That was also 400 years before christ.  Yes, I know full well the word, the meaning of the word, the use of the word, and will dig up examples if it will change the world. >If not I'm just going to say that education on the word is lacking.


  Shakespeare himself used that term to describe Richard II, a king that was at least bisexual if not completely homosexual.
  And Paul used Peripateo, which literally means walk, to express a life style.  And today we use the word Gay which literally means jovial to mean homosexual.  That doesn't change the meaning, NOR make it as solid a claim as you push it.  That's just not honest.

What you are doing Catalyst is a common mistake- trying to place 21st century meanings to words that had different meanings when they were translated.

Yes, that's why I've studied 600 years of culture on it to understand the word.  What you are doing is assuming things you haven't the wherewithall to assume.  I find that offensive.

  That's why the NIV translated the Greek word "arsenokiotes" as homosexual, particularly in 1 Cor 6:9 when it immediate follows the Greek word "malakos" which meant "catamite".  Paul was using a similar progression of thought that he did in Romans 1 showing the slippery slope of sin going from bad to worse in the sexual ethics of biblical thought.

Irrelevant when you get down to what is a sin.  It's the sex, not the inclination that makes the sin.

As far as a homosexual's legal rights as American citizens, marriage has always been a religious institution in this country since it's founding,

COUGH COUGH.  Ok.  So this conversation went to fantasy and not reality.>> It's time for me to leave.

Marriage is a word that has existed about as long as America has been under eastern influence.  A little longer.  It was used as a legal term, not a church term.  The church became involved ONLY because they were the ones that could read and do legal documents for the royalty who were the land barons, warriors, providers for their area's peoples.  Marriage existed before jews existed, before the levitical laws existed, before Xians were a thought on the radar map of theology.  Mmarriage existed with the native american indians, mayans, incans, LONG before they had heard of Jesus the Christ, or God. 

To claim the word is religious is not honest either.  It is used religiously, just as the word baptism is.  But baptism doesn't always mean submerged in water.  That was a term adopted to our faith.  Let's be honest if we are going to talk words here. 

The word is a legal word.  It's the word for two folks being unioned together, where one family committed xyz to the other who committed abc to the prior.  The document and marriage was the seal on it.  Marriages were used for influence, it wasn't romantic church lore.
 
efore falls under the church to decide.  (That's a hard arguement to make since so many churches have thrown out the bible and 2000 years of Christian thought and embraced sin in order to be relevant). 

Depending on how you read the 14th amendment, they may have a case there.  It depends on if you consider marriage a civil right.

Marriage is ONLY a civil thing where the government is concerned.  Their responsibility is a GOD APPOINTED position to provide for the people, Xian or not. By the Church trying to force our faith to be forcibly enforced on them, those not of our faith, which paul said specifically we weren't to do, and Christ almost as specifically said the same, is anti christ, not christian.  It's going against HIS words, PAUL'S words, and thus the Biblical position.

Until you can show me how this meets the standard of Love in matt 5, gal 5:6, shirt/coat parable, sheep goats parable, there isn't a chance to sell me on this.  You have to turn your backs on all of those to justify what is going on today. 

I'm sure you aren't being dishonest up there deliberately or premeditatedly, the arguments are NOT intellectually honest though.

Online John Oscar

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We will have to agree to disagree then.

Be blessed.
John O


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THREE the word HERESY is defined as YOU DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT I WANT YOU TO.  And in a room of 10000 believers only one isn't a heretic on something, that's yourself.  That word is about as appropriate in a conversation as saying "you big dummy". 

It's actually based on Church doctrine. The bible says that scripture isn't of any one man's interpretation.

SHOW me how the Church's stand today, dehumanizing and abusive, is fulfilling Jesus' command in matt 5:48 and we can talk of my heresy.  Anything else is just justifying hate in the name of God, the God of love. 

The Church's stand isn't dehumanizing and abusive, although there may be individuals who are.

Your line above..... isn't conversation, it's inflammatory accusation.  It has no place within your rules of this forum. 

You are pretty much free to say what you want here, to include heresy. That's what a chat forum is all about. But heresies will be countered, of course.  :o

I am very liberal when it comes to discussing and preaching heresies or doctrines that are wrong, but this forum won't ban people who do.

If every heresy or heretic were banned, then what could we discuss? LOL


You are the one violating Christ's command, not me.  I'm preaching they asked for a coat and give them my shirt, or love them as God loved even his enemies where HE provided for them.  It's amazing the very verse you quote, points out your out of position statements.

If a homosexual gives his coat to the poor, that is good. But nonetheless, the homosexual must sincerely repent of homosexuality AND accept Jesus in his (or her) heart to enter His kingdom. No sin will enter His kingdom.

You lost all respect the second you went to name calling and not discussing the exegesis.

That wasn't my intent.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Catalyst

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We will have to agree to disagree then.

Be blessed.

I can certainly do that.

But I'd like to express the extreme disappointment when someone presents arguments against you, and you defend them and flip the topic back to them, and they just walk away.  If they aren't interested in a quid pro quo conversation, why enter it?

If they are so "know everything" that it's not worth their time to enter why not just make a blog to lecture from since conversation is out of the loop.

Offline Catalyst

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It's actually based on Church doctrine. The bible says that scripture isn't of any one man's interpretation.

Which is more important to you, church doctrine, or what the bible says.  If it was BIBLE then you'd still be Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.  I'm the one taking scripture by what scripture reveals here, not you.  You are adding angst and emotion to it. 

Quote from: dario68w, post: 264083, member: 7834

The Church's stand isn't dehumanizing and abusive, although there may be individuals who are.

How is denying them legal protection under the legal term marriage not dehumanizing?  They are treated as pedophiles as sexual predators.  They can't see God as love because HIS CHURCH shows them hate not love. The tax collector and soldier, held two of the least GODLY jobs of Jesus' time.  They asked Him what they should do, Christ said do your job but do it fairly.

The government is faced with a time to do that, and the Church is threatening the members of the government if they do the job GOD appointed them to do.  That's ANTI CHRIST, by definition of the literal meanings of the words. 

If they ask for your coat give them your shirt.  They are asking for legal protection, and you support championing a cause to tell them they are undeserving.  Because of some UNGODLY notion that Marriage never existed until the Hebrew faith was talking about it?  That's assanine.

Quote from: dario68w, post: 264083, member: 7834

You are pretty much free to say what you want here, to include heresy. That's what a chat forum is all about. But heresies will be countered, of course.  :o
Your a heretic.  You deny God's enemies the love God wishes to execute through the Church of which you are a member/appendage of.  The more you support denying GOD from giving his love, the longer you will be anti christ.  How's that?

Heresy is a judgement call by an individual.  It's not a divine right for you to declare.  Anytime that card is played, it's just one person's attempt to claim, Look at me I'm the holy one.  And I find it offensive.  Especially since on a scale of talleys who's violating more scripture you win by far.   I'd rather keep it to the exegesis not the finger pointing, "I'm more holy than you so I'm right" crap.


Quote from: dario68w, post: 264083, member: 7834
I am very liberal when it comes to discussing and preaching heresies or doctrines that are wrong, but this forum won't ban people who do.

If every heresy or heretic were banned, then what could we discuss? LOL[/color]

Ok, I agree with the last two lines.  I don't claim to be liberal or conservative, I'm more conservative than the conservatives and more liberal than the liberals... I dunno what I am, except pragmatist.  I take scripture literally and pragmatically.  I work hard at not bleeding my views into it and letting IT define me, not ME define it.


If a homosexual gives his coat to the poor, that is good. But nonetheless, the homosexual must sincerely repent of homosexuality AND accept Jesus in his (or her) heart to enter His kingdom. No sin will enter His kingdom.

That wasn't my intent.

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Your a heretic.
LOL  :o

You're a homosexual, aren't you? If you love the Lord Jesus, then He will eventually free you from that sin.  :)

How is denying them [homosexuals] legal protection under the legal term marriage not dehumanizing?  They are treated as pedophiles as sexual predators.  They can't see God as love because HIS CHURCH shows them hate not love.

Nobody hates you for being homosexual. Pointing out that homosexuality is a sin is not hate.

The Church is threatening the members of the government if they do the job GOD appointed them to do.  That's ANTI CHRIST, by definition of the literal meanings of the words. 
That doesn't make any sense.

They [homosexuals] are asking for legal protection, and you support championing a cause to tell them they are undeserving.  Because of some UNGODLY notion that Marriage never existed until the Hebrew faith was talking about it?  That's assanine. Your a heretic. 

Homosexuals are free to live in sin. No one is stopping them. The Church is not going to ordain homosexual unions. Why is it important for you to get the Church and the Lord to ordain what is sinful? Stop listening to doctrines of demons.

   I'd rather keep it to the exegesis not the finger pointing, "I'm more holy than you so I'm right" crap.

Jesus alone is holy -- and whoever is covered by his blood is holy. Are you covered by the blood of Jesus?
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Catalyst

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LOL  :o

You're a homosexual, aren't you? If you love the Lord Jesus, then He will eventually free you from that sin.  :)

You are a damned bigot aren't you.  I'm not cursing bigots are damned in scripture. 

No I"m not homosexual.  In fact I havent' had any sex in 12 years because a previous period of my life I was quite the little slut and I couldn't give all of my mind to a wife at this time.  I stayed in a marriage 7 years with NO sex and not even an intimate hug to try to save it.  I miss her and she was a good woman for the most part, but something in there somewhere caused a malfunction.  Because before that time I was involved in a wild lifestle in the sexual genre, for example more than one woman at a time, swapping etc... my mind is pretty scarred when it comes to the topic of sex.  I figure if I'm to give my all to a woman when I marry her, I need to get as much of that out of my life and mind as I can.  The life part was easy, the memories may never be gone.  I'm not going to marry someone that wouldn't understand, and that I'd have to keep that secret from.  They deserve to know before hand.  And until I meet that person I choose notto wear a Tshirt championing my past.  I don't date at this point, because even in the BAPTIST CHURCHES in my age bracket, at a point the woman will make the move, or get frustrated that I haven't made a move.  And either way, it's turning their willingness down and it causes big hurt for them, inadequate feelings, not many men say no to an offer of sex.   So I choose to not date even. 

You reach so hard to justify your bigotry you have to make a personal ad hominem to wards me to justify you are a BIGOT.

You should resign your post, you can't keep the rules much less enforce them.  You are blatantly offensive and inflammatory. AND you left the arguments, to attack me personally to uphold your rights to be a bigot. 


Nobody hates you for being homosexual. Pointing out that homosexuality is a sin is not hate.
Whatever you gotta do to justify your thoughts.  Your heart has been revealed.  You love to hate homosexual so much that even if the person isn't homosexual but has good arguments you cant counter you feel that empty accusation will justify your beliefs.  If you lived in Dallas I could take you to women and gay men, and I mean gay as the day is long, flaming homosexual that I work with, and both would laugh at your assertion. 



That doesn't make any sense.

Really?  what is the tea party, no gay marriage or we won't vote for you campaigns all about then.  If that doesn't make sense to you, it's only because you choose to turn your head to it.  Are you a member of Westboror baptist church?  The KKK was a church established organization, for biblical reasons to protect us from the blacks invading God's chosen people.  That's not my opinion, that's a fact.


Homosexuals are free to live in sin. No one is stopping them. The Church is not going to ordain homosexual unions. Why is it important for you to get the Church and the Lord to ordain what is sinful? Stop listening to doctrines of demons.


So are bigots, but when they are a bigot in the name of God, anyone witnessing it is obligated in Timothy, Matthew, galatians and other places to address them on it.  You have been addressed.

You are SUCH a bigot, you see "gay" anywhere.  And if someone is accused of being gay, in your head that is justification enough to disregard their arguments. 


Jesus alone is holy -- and whoever is covered by his blood is holy. Are you covered by the blood of Jesus?

You have no clue what you are talking about here.  Go read Ephesians 4:11-17, You are expected to be made as spiritually holy as Jesus was on earth.  That's not my opinion, that's what Paul wrote with quadruple redundancy.   I'm not there yet, but you act as if you were with your insane judgements. 

Tell me, is momma proud that you get to sit on the throne of judgement and pretend to be God when He's gone?

Get out of my thread.  Keep your bigotry somewhere else.  If I start a thread on works, will you bring homosexuality up in that too?  Like you did the other thread???? Why are you so obsessed there.

Offline Catalyst

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Because you are an sdministrator, you do not have the rights, and are a hypocrite to not keep your own rules.  According to Paul's example when a "leader" misbehaves in front of witnesses, you confront them in front of witnesses.  Because you challenged me as a participant inside the thread, and not as an administrator, I addressed it within the thread.  Since you chose slander over discussion, you can avoid participating in any thread I start.  Your bigotted bias is documented.


Online John Oscar

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Catalyst, you're the one that is flying off the handle here brother.  Me Again just asked a few questions, and obviously touched a pretty sore subject with you and you reacted very emotionally and are not being very rational at this point.

Because this whole thread has spun off the rails, I'm closing it as soon as I'm done typing to avoid any further issues.

Blessings,
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 01:04:44 PM by John Oscar »
John O


 

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