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Author Topic: Some Christian religious groups...  (Read 3019 times)

Offline The Crusader

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Some Christian religious groups...
« on: August 19, 2013, 07:50:28 PM »
Some Christian religious groups, after presenting salvation as a free gift of God’s grace, turn right around and teach new believers that their continuing relationship with the Lord now depends on their performance. If they don’t live holy, go to church, read their Bibles, and pay tithes, etc., then the Lord won’t bless them or answer their prayers.

 That kind of thinking will block a person from receiving the love of God. When their performance falls short, and it always does, their own hearts will condemn them. They just can’t believe God could love them. The truth is that God’s love for us has nothing to do with our performance. He loves us because He is love, not because we are lovely.
"...to make all men see"(Ephesians 3:9)

We don't change God's message -- His message changes us.

Offline Zaph

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Re: Some Christian religious groups...
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2013, 09:29:16 PM »
Your absolutely correct in saying that our salvation is a free gift and not dependent upon our works or any other thing. There is nothing we can do that will buy us salvation.And there is forgiveness afterward being born again if we should fall short. However, to say that obedience is not something we should worry about I think denies the power of Holy Spirit to keep someone abiding in Christ.

It appears to me, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you kind of look down on living an obedient life. It also appears that you believe that our carnal nature is stronger than the divine nature and God's love to keep us from falling.

Every sin no matter how "small" should be looked upon as a dreadful thing. Sin and disobedience separates. If you don't believe me look at what happened to Adam and Eve. It appears that some have the attitude.... "if I sin...oh well because I know I'll be forgiven. No biggy!"

You can not walk in your lusts and walk with Christ at the same time. No one can serve two masters. Here are 3 promises that I think most Christians forget that they can claim. While our obedience will never win us Heaven or recommend us to Christ it is a witness to the world that Christ's grace is more than forgiveness it's also the power to obey.

Gal 5:16  This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

2Pe 1:4  Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

-------

2Ti 3:1  This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3  Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Offline The Crusader

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Some Christian religious groups...
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2013, 09:02:23 PM »
nope your wrong about me.
"...to make all men see"(Ephesians 3:9)

We don't change God's message -- His message changes us.

Offline Zaph

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Re: Some Christian religious groups...
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2013, 09:33:38 PM »
That is good to know my friend!

Now my question to whoever is reading. Does God expect us to live an obedient life?

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Re: Some Christian religious groups...
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2013, 07:33:24 PM »
That is good to know my friend!

Now my question to whoever is reading. Does God expect us to live an obedient life?
Yes, of course. However, it's important to understand that our works can never be associated with our salvation, lest any man should boast.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Zaph

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Re: Some Christian religious groups...
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2013, 08:36:53 PM »
I agree that our works don't earn us anything towards salvation. Paul makes this very clear in more than one place.

Tit_3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

However, we will be judged according to our works and when we take the name of Christian and don't behave like Christ what does that say? This is one of the big ways Christians break the 3rd commandment. However, our works are also a witness as to which master you serve.

Mat_16:27  For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Rev_20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Joh_8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

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Re: Some Christian religious groups...
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2013, 09:09:21 AM »
Those who have been to heaven (and back) describe it as a place where everyone is satisfied. Yes, we will be rewarded, based on our works, but we will all be satisfied.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Zaph

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Re: Some Christian religious groups...
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2013, 08:59:24 PM »
Those who have been to heaven (and back)...

Who has been to heaven and back? The only ones I know of are Moses and Elijah. Anyone else who claims that they've contacted the dead whether it be their nice grandpa or evil hilter are deceived by satan. How do I know? Because the Bible told me so. Don't be fooled! The devil can and will appear nice and/or work miracles to deceive.

Deuteronomy 18
9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the Lord your God.


Yes, we will be rewarded, based on our works, but we will all be satisfied.

There is more to it than our reward. It's how we are judged. It's the evidence that we are abiding in Christ and are hid in His righteousness.

Rev_14:12  Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev_20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev_20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev_22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

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Re: Some Christian religious groups...
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2013, 10:58:57 AM »
Who has been to heaven and back? The only ones I know of are Moses and Elijah.

That was under the Old Covenant, but under the New Covenant, it is different:

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (1 Cor. 2:9,10)

Anyone else who claims that they've contacted the dead whether it be their nice grandpa or evil hilter are deceived by satan. How do I know? Because the Bible told me so. 

We are surrounded by an audience of saints in heaven who are watching us now through the portals of glory. The saints throughout history who have died are currently alive and well in heaven.

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses... (Heb. 12:1a)

...I [John] saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (Rev. 6:9-11)


Don't be fooled! The devil can and will appear nice and/or work miracles to deceive.

We must always be on our guard because the devil can deceptively appear as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14). He is come but for to kill, to steal and to destroy (John 10:10). The bible also says that as long as we are on this earth, we will be attacked (John 16:33), but the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but are mighty through God (2 Cor. 10:1-6).
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Zaph

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Re: Some Christian religious groups...
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2013, 08:31:38 PM »
While we have a new covenant doesn't mean that God has changed. He doesn't change the rules on us. Never has. Never will. God's Word never opposes itself.

Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

If it was a sin to communicate with the dead then it is now also. Unless of course you wish to say it's no longer a sin to steal, kill or commit adultery also. The biggest difference in the old and new convents is that in the old man promised to do something that he could never do on his own so it obviously failed. In the new covenant God promised to write the laws on our hearts

Heb_8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Heb_10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

The law hasn't changed. What has changed is how it's applied and when we allow God to change our hearts He never fails.

I fail to understand why you think the dead are being talked about in Hebrews 12:1. I see no context for that assumption. Besides the dead know nothing.

Ecc_9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa_115:17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Offline Zaph

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Re: Some Christian religious groups...
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2013, 09:09:35 AM »
That was under the Old Covenant, but under the New Covenant, it is different:

I'm wondering if you believe that it's now ok to communicate with the dead then the rest of the offenses listed in those verses are also ok now. They are all listed together as abominations and because of them the other nations were to be driven out. So if it's ok now to communicate with the dead it's also ok to... cast spells, engage in witchcraft, etc. You can't pick and choose out of that list.


Deuteronomy 18
9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. 13You must be blameless before the Lord your God.

Offline me again

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Re: Some Christian religious groups...
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2013, 09:51:17 AM »
I'm wondering if you believe that it's now ok to communicate with the dead then the rest of the offenses listed in those verses are also ok now. They are all listed together as abominations and because of them the other nations were to be driven out. So if it's ok now to communicate with the dead it's also ok to... cast spells, engage in witchcraft, etc. You can't pick and choose out of that list.


Deuteronomy 18
9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. 13You must be blameless before the Lord your God.

The Catholic Church teaches that it is not ok to pray to the dead, unless they are declared to be saints. The reason for the prohibition against praying to non-saints is because we do not know who is in heaven -- and who is not.

On the mount of transfiguration, Jesus knew that Moses and Elijah were saints e.g. that they were alive in heaven -- and that's why he prayed with them.

The Catholic Church teaches that under no condition is it acceptable to go to a medium to consult with the dead.

I'm wondering if you believe that it's now ok to communicate with the dead then the rest of the offenses listed in those verses are also ok now.

The saints are not dead.

The souls under the alter were praying to God: "...how long, oh Lord, before you execute judgement against those on earth..." The souls/saints under the alter are alive and well and they are praying. I understand that in your theology, you believe the saints are dead until the resurrection.
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

Offline Zaph

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Re: Some Christian religious groups...
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2013, 07:03:13 PM »
The Catholic Church teaches that it is not ok to pray to the dead, unless they are declared to be saints. The reason for the prohibition against praying to non-saints is because we do not know who is in heaven -- and who is not.

And the Catholic church does? Please give Bible reference for this authority they have to do this.

On the mount of transfiguration, Jesus knew that Moses and Elijah were saints e.g. that they were alive in heaven -- and that's why he prayed with them.

For reference here are the accounts of the transfiguration...

Mat 17:1  And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3  And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mat 17:6  And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
Mat 17:7  And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
Mat 17:8  And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
Mat 17:9  And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Mar 9:2  And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
Mar 9:3  And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
Mar 9:4  And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
Mar 9:5  And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mar 9:6  For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
Mar 9:7  And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Mar 9:8  And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
Mar 9:9  And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

Luk 9:28  And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Luk 9:29  And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Luk 9:30  And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31  Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
Luk 9:32  But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.
Luk 9:33  And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
Luk 9:34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
Luk 9:35  And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Luk 9:36  And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen.


There is no record of Christ praying to Moses and Elijah. It says that Jesus was talking with them. Face to face. There are all sorts of Bible references of Christ praying to His Father but no records of Christ praying to anyone else.

Besides there are only 3 people that we know by name who are alive today.

Moses...

Jud 1:9  Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Luk 9:30  And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:


Elijah...

2Ki 2:11  And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Luk 9:30  And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:


Enoch....

Gen 5:23  And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
Gen 5:24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Heb 11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


The Catholic Church teaches that under no condition is it acceptable to go to a medium to consult with the dead.

That is a very good thing but in your previous post you said it was because it was old covenant but now you quote the Catholic church rather than the Bible. Your arguments have more force when they come from the Bible even if I disagree with them. You need to choose your argument.

Earlier when I disagreed with you on the bases of it being and old covenant command from God, your reply in essence was that those restrictions were done away with since we are under the new covenant. Making it ok to communicate with the dead and the rest of that same list of abominations.

Now you're saying that it's ok because the Catholic church says so. So which my friend is your basis of truth?

The saints are not dead.

The souls under the alter were praying to God: "...how long, oh Lord, before you execute judgement against those on earth..." The souls/saints under the alter are alive and well and they are praying. I understand that in your theology, you believe the saints are dead until the resurrection.

It's interesting how people pick and choose what is literal and what is symbolic in the book of Revelation. If you believe that there are souls currently under the later crying out then I assume also that you believe that Abel's blood literally cried out with a voice to God.

Gen 4:10  And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

It would also appear that you've bought into the Devil's lie....

Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

So if the devil was telling the truth and no one dies and all who have died but aren't really dead are either in heaven or hell who are these Bible texts talking about? I'll only give 2 references but I can provide more that say the same thing.

Ecc_9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psa_115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Offline John Oscar

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Re: Some Christian religious groups...
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2013, 11:34:24 PM »
Problems with praying to people formally human-

1.  Are they now omniscient?  Does God provide them with a answering machine to record all those prayers so they can then in turn bring them to Him?  Scripture tells us God does not share His Glory (expressed through his Godly attributes of omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence) with another.
2.  It's a violation of scripture (1st and 2nd commandment, Deut 6. Matthew 6:9-13)
3.  Hebrews states Jesus is our mediator, period.  The temple veil was torn that separated God from the individual.  Human religion tries to sew it back up.
4.  On a personal level, it would not be heaven for me to have to hear about someone's cancer, broken relationships, pain and suffering, ect.  The old will be gone, and the new will be our reality.
John O


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Re: Some Christian religious groups...
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2013, 08:24:14 AM »
And the Catholic church does? Please give Bible reference for this authority they have to do this.

2 Timothy 1:16-18
The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. The Lord grant unto him that he [Onesiphorus was dead] may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

Acts 9:40
And they all being put forth, Peter, kneeling down, prayed. And turning to the body, he said: Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes and, seeing Peter, sat up.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 08:30:03 AM by me again »
"So then, stand firm and hold to the traditions :o which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

 

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